Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : I never said Bard was an elite pitcher at this point, but he certainly has the potential to be. Soriano had a reputation as a "cement head" for a while and he wasn't a starting pitcher, like Bard is now.  I don't get the comparison.  My point was that contending teams don't trade young starting pitchers with top of the rotation stuff, as more and more teams are realizing how important it is to develop young pitching and hang onto that pitching. The point with Lee is that fewer and fewer top of the rotation guys are hitting the market these days, so it's even more important to develop your ownp itching, which is why, again, you don't trade a guy like Bard...
    Posted by jasko2248


    Soriano was the exact same pitcher with the Mariners Bard was with the Red Sox for the last 3 years.

    I hope Bard is a success, even if he is removed (probably wisely so) when Daisuke comes back. But as a starting pitcher, he is a project, and probably an ill-advised one.  He is getting the chance because that is the trend.  Teams follow each other around with cost-cutting ideas.  And while many, mny other RP have failed as a converted starter, CJ Wilson didn't, and suddenly he is the new model everyone is following. (CJ Wilson, whom I always felt was overvalued, was the nest SP on the reigning AL Champion last year, and went to the FA market, by the way.)

    And actually, most of the long term deals being handed out lately are for younger position players.  The Rays went all in on Matt Moore, but that team has a track record of getting deals done ridiculously early.  (Evan Longoria was extended after 6 career games!!) 

    The truth is, teams are NOT tying up young top-of-the-rotation arms the way you are claiming.  The infrequent number to hit free agency is probably only due to the extremely limited number that meet your defintion of a true #1.  While some younger pitchers (Verlander, Cain, Bumgarner) have been extended, many others (Shields, Greinke, Price, Strasburg) have not. Some small makret teams like Tamp do sign them. Others like Oakland pass them on for even younger pitchers, who will in turn be dealt for younger pitchers, and the circle of life continues in Oakland.

    Young pitchers are much, much less of a risk than young hitters, so some GMs are actually reluctant to sign them to extensions.  Billy Beane is a prime example of this, and certainly one who has traded away MANY young pitchers...
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from DEBeardsr. Show DEBeardsr's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    AMEM!AMEN!AMEN!AMEN! He certainly is no second coming of Nolan Ryan. Me thinks he stinks like a courthouse toilet. He may be a thrower,but definitely not a pitcher. A pitcher doesn't stink like Bard does.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : Soriano was the exact same pitcher with the Mariners Bard was with the Red Sox for the last 3 years. I hope Bard is a success, even if he is removed (probably wisely so) when Daisuke comes back. But as a starting pitcher, he is a project, and probably an ill-advised one.  He is getting the chance because that is the trend.  Teams follow each other around with cost-cutting ideas.  And while many, mny other RP have failed as a converted starter, CJ Wilson didn't, and suddenly he is the new model everyone is following. (CJ Wilson, whom I always felt was overvalued, was the nest SP on the reigning AL Champion last year, and went to the FA market, by the way.) And actually, most of the long term deals being handed out lately are for younger position players.  The Rays went all in on Matt Moore, but that team has a track record of getting deals done ridiculously early.  (Evan Longoria was extended after 6 career games!!)  The truth is, teams are NOT tying up young top-of-the-rotation arms the way you are claiming.  The infrequent number to hit free agency is probably only due to the extremely limited number that meet your defintion of a true #1.  While some younger pitchers (Verlander, Cain, Bumgarner) have been extended, many others (Shields, Greinke, Price, Strasburg) have not. Some small makret teams like Tamp do sign them. Others like Oakland pass them on for even younger pitchers, who will in turn be dealt for younger pitchers, and the circle of life continues in Oakland. Young pitchers are much, much less of a risk than young hitters, so some GMs are actually reluctant to sign them to extensions.  Billy Beane is a prime example of this, and certainly one who has traded away MANY young pitchers...
    Posted by notin


    A couple of things....Out of the four examples you use, Shields and Price both pitch for Tampa, a team that doesn't have the resources to sign these guys to long term deals, Strasburg is under control for 5 years and coming off TJ surgery and Greinke has anxiety issues and has pitched in two small markets. I clearly said "with the financial resources like the Sox have." The Sox have done a great job of extending their own home grown talent, whenever possible.  Billy Beane, again, doesn't have the resources to tie up his young talent. You are comparing apples and oranges. I'll agree to disagree, because I think it's pretty clear that more teams are locking up top of the rotation starters and you clearly don't.

    I don't think CJ Wilson is a proven "ace" by any stretch, but he was the best of a weak crop, as John Lackey was two years ago.  

    You can compare Soriano and Bard as "relievers," but Bard is no longer a reliever, and despite some wishful thinking, he's not going back to the bullpen anytime soon, and he's certainly not being moved back to the pen when Dice-K comes back.  Unless he completely implodes as a starter, he isn't going back to the pen again... 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!





    I prefer him in the pen but this OP is very chicken little.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    throw fastballs for strikes...that is the only thing that Bard needs to do...he is infatuated with his curve/off speed stuff....just remind him to rip it hard...very chicken little thread indeed as the gREAT Burrito T has stated
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : Soriano was the exact same pitcher with the Mariners Bard was with the Red Sox for the last 3 years. I hope Bard is a success, even if he is removed (probably wisely so) when Daisuke comes back. But as a starting pitcher, he is a project, and probably an ill-advised one.  He is getting the chance because that is the trend.  Teams follow each other around with cost-cutting ideas.  And while many, mny other RP have failed as a converted starter, CJ Wilson didn't, and suddenly he is the new model everyone is following. (CJ Wilson, whom I always felt was overvalued, was the nest SP on the reigning AL Champion last year, and went to the FA market, by the way.) And actually, most of the long term deals being handed out lately are for younger position players.  The Rays went all in on Matt Moore, but that team has a track record of getting deals done ridiculously early.  (Evan Longoria was extended after 6 career games!!)  The truth is, teams are NOT tying up young top-of-the-rotation arms the way you are claiming.  The infrequent number to hit free agency is probably only due to the extremely limited number that meet your defintion of a true #1.  While some younger pitchers (Verlander, Cain, Bumgarner) have been extended, many others (Shields, Greinke, Price, Strasburg) have not. Some small makret teams like Tamp do sign them. Others like Oakland pass them on for even younger pitchers, who will in turn be dealt for younger pitchers, and the circle of life continues in Oakland. Young pitchers are much, much less of a risk than young hitters, so some GMs are actually reluctant to sign them to extensions.  Billy Beane is a prime example of this, and certainly one who has traded away MANY young pitchers...
    Posted by notin


    Notin,
    the biggest difference between Bard and Soriano is that Bard was a starter in college and in his first year of pro ball, before being moved to the pen. Bard has been a pitcher since HS...Soriano was converted to pitching by the Mariners and right from the begining was developed to be a reliever...


    In Bard's case it came down to a few factors. The Sox had a need entering the season due to the injuries to Matsusaka and Lackey (tying up some 26M in payroll). After Wilson the FA market didn't have a ton of quality depth. So moneys were indeed part of the reason, but not the driving force, more so it came down to price value...With Lester, Beckett & Buccholz all entering the spring healthy the Sox were looking to fill the 4th, 5th and 6th starter rolls. They had Miller and Dobrount both as internal options but otherwise the cubbord was bare...Once they decided to move Bard into the rotation. They then went out and aquired Melancon and Bailey both of whom came at a reasonable cost both in terms of players and moneys. In effect with thier aquisitions, the Sox then had the flexibility to give Bard a legit shot to earn a spot in the rotation in the spring...In hindsight I don't think that anyone can judge his performance to be lacking, he's simply learning how to pitch every 5 days, a transistion that will take most of this year to complete.  

    The recent trend of closer to starter, isn't new... the Red Sox did the same with Derek Lowe and also were close to doing the same with Papelbon. The reason is simple, if they can make the conversion and maintain thier stuff. 200 IP with a sub 4 ERA vs 70 IP with 2 ERA is far more valuable in the big picture.

    In the end it comes down to commanding the ball and repeating your delivery for 100 pitches while maintaining your stuff and navigating a ML lineup 3 or 4 times in a single game. Those that can't end up in the pen...those that have plus stuff end up in the back of the pen...Those that can stay in the rotation...time will tell which of the three groups Bard falls into...
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    Notin/Jasko

    I agree with both your points however we have a decent closer that doesn't put a lot of people on base (Aceves). Bard is and has been an excellent set-up guy--if you want to keep him as a set-up and he is willing to be one then be ready to pay him at least like Buch and Lester, show him some love. Insure him he's valued, work at emulating a guy like Verlander or Nathan or be a set-up guy that can hold runners and throw at least 3 pitches for strikes all the time--don't waste energy and don't waste pitches. Be the pitcher you're capable of being and we'll show you how we pay for that dedication.


    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : Really?!  What teams with the economic resources like the Sox have, trade young Major League pitchers under team control with stuff like Bard's? I would actually say it's very rare these days. Teams are locking up their young talented pitchers more and more, which is why Cliff Lee is the only #1 type starter to hit the free agent market over the last few years.    Unless a team is in full rebuild mode and looking for 3 or 4 top prospects, these type of pitchers arent going anywhere.  Feliz is another guy who asked for a shot to pitch in the rotation and he deserved it.  One of the reasons these guys want an opportunity to start is that is where the $ is, as you mentioned, so you can't blame them for wanting a shot.  Closers come and go in this league all the time, and it's obviously a heck of a lot cheaper to develop one in house or sign a guy like Nathan for a hell of a lot less money, but that doesn't change the fact that you don't trade a guy with Bard's stuff when you're a team with a contending nucleus, and you certainly don't give up on him after 7 career starts...
    Posted by jasko2248

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mchampion. Show Mchampion's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    Bard never walked this many as a reliever.  He was an A+ 8th inning guy.  I think the Sox will leave him in the rotation because they have Bailey coming back at least for a little while until he gets hurt again.  So we will have to live with Bard starting for now unless he completely blows up, which he is on his way to doing.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

     
    Bard, in my estimation, saw the handwriting on the wall early enough last year-Pap's leaving, I will be the heir apparent as closer,I'm not a closer--in my estimation, he realized that may not be what he truly wanted. 
    But: we have no Dice or Lackey this is my chance to get into the rotation and escape the pen, in addition this will eventually generate financial security for my family.
    Now he is having difficulty getting the ball over--creating a catch 22--where am I best suited--how do I save face and go back to the pen. Someone has to help him with that transition--BV, the pitching coach, Pedroia, Papi--someone that can make it right.
    The Sox can then move on to straightening out  the rotation.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    Agreed he is not. I said a long time ago that you weakened one area to strenghen another. They took a good setup guy and madehim a starting pitcher of which he is mediocre.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    I've said that since the get-go....and last night was more evidence that he should be moved back.  Of course, this is contigent on Buck's performance and Dice-K's recovery.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    Sox bullpen averaging well over 4BB/9 without running up pitch counts and piling on IP. I never thought moving Bard to closer was a good idea, because of the walk issue.  Let alone starter...
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    Well over 4BB / 9?

    Bard  2009 to 2011:

    67 BB + 9 IBB

    197 innings / 9  =  22  9 inning games

    67 BB / 22 =  3 BB / 9

    K / 9

    09      11.5
    10       9.2
    11       9.1

    WHIP
            BARD            Paps

    09   1.28                 1.15
    10    1.0                  1.27
    11    .96                   .93

    I never thought moving Bard to closer was a good idea

    9 to 10 K / 9    3  BB / 9     1ish WHIP  Not a closer?




     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

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    In Response to Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    When will the Red Sox realize Bard does not have starting pitching stuff. He has no command & walks way too many hitters every game. Walks have come back to haunt him in every game he has started so far this season. IMO, he belongs back in the bullpen. The question is will it happen or will they continue in their stubborn ways & watch Bard struggle all season long as a starter. I can't be the only one who feels this way !!
    Posted by jpBsSoxFan


    Bard and Miller could still become good SP's, if they work hard because age is still on their side.  Right now I agree we need pitchers who can keep us in the game and not put so much strain on the offense and pen.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wolfpack13. Show Wolfpack13's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    Would it kill anyone to wait more than 8 starts? The A plus, all-world set-up man last year had an ERA of 3.33 (I know it was much better in 2009). Whoa don't touch that! First of all, you may simply be looking at a mediocre pitcher in general. To me he had one brilliant year. Second, most MLB pitchers aren't going to be as devestating as a starter. Therefore, a pitcher's ERA will always be somewhat higher as a starter. Third, wouldn't it be great to have someone throw 200 innings rather than 70?!? Fourth, "economic reasons" are great reasons to move him into the starter role. As shaky as Bard has been- a fourth or fifth starter of this caliber has cost the Sox 5 million bucks in the past or we have to watch Brad Penny experiments. Fifth and final: 7th or 8th inning set-up men are easier to find than a reliable starter.
    That being said- the mph and wildness is a concern and if his ERA is over 4.5 at the All-Star break then I'll concede. Can we please give him a few more starts. Plus we have to save a bullpen spot for Bucholz.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBfan67. Show BBfan67's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    Agree 100% give him 2 more starts and then it's the bullpen!!! Please no more human rain delays 24 seconds between pitches absolutely rediculous.



    In Response to Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    When will the Red Sox realize Bard does not have starting pitching stuff. He has no command & walks way too many hitters every game. Walks have come back to haunt him in every game he has started so far this season. IMO, he belongs back in the bullpen. The question is will it happen or will they continue in their stubborn ways & watch Bard struggle all season long as a starter. I can't be the only one who feels this way !!
    Posted by jpBsSoxFan

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : You don't trade pitchers with an arm like Bard's.  He's pitched about as well as can be expected for a guy with 7 career starts under his belt above A ball.
    Posted by jasko2248

    I repectfully disagree. Bard has been a disappointment as an 8th inning guy and now as a starter. If he has trade value I would trade him. He will never be a closer and if he is a starter he will not be a 1 or 2.  Bard is also not  as young as you think.  We should not trade him for nothing but if he has value I think we have seen he has limited upside.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In response to "Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!":
    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : I repectfully disagree. Bard has been a disappointment as an 8th inning guy and now as a starter. If he has trade value I would trade him. He will never be a closer and if he is a starter he will not be a 1 or 2.  Bard is also not  as young as you think.  We should not trade him for nothing but if he has value I think we have seen he has limited upside. Posted by concord27
    So you've come to the conclusion that he "will not be a 1 or 2 starter" after 8 Big League starts!? Well then you should be the highest paid talent evaluator in the history of baseball...and to say he's been a "disappointment" as an 8th inning guy is just wrong. By the way, I know how old Bard is, right around the age when many pitchers are entering their prime.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    He will be a liability in this bullpen. Better to DL and/or send him back to AAA.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    Mortensen and Melancon are both better relievers than Bard. If he can't start, he can't pitch for Boston.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

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    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    Mortensen and Melancon are both better relievers than Bard. If he can't start, he can't pitch for Boston.
    Posted by maxbialystock


    Yeah, he's been a horrible set-up guy the last two years.  Maybe they just should release him...
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In response to "Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!":
    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : Yeah, he's been a horrible set-up guy the last two years.  Maybe they just should release him... Posted by jasko2248
    Actually, he was horrible in September and has now lost the plus fastball. The Sox bullpen has been excellent for over three weeks and still has three excellent relievers in Pawtucket or on the DL. No pitcher who has lost his control is going to be effective. No way would I DFA him, but I would send him to Pawtucket.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    Mortensen and Melancon are both better relievers than Bard. If he can't start, he can't pitch for Boston.
    Posted by maxbialystock


    That's an extremely bold statement about Melancon considering he pitched batting practice in his only two big league appearances this year.


     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    In response to "Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!": Actually, he was horrible in September and has now lost the plus fastball. The Sox bullpen has been excellent for over three weeks and still has three excellent relievers in Pawtucket or on the DL. No pitcher who has lost his control is going to be effective. No way would I DFA him, but I would send him to Pawtucket.
    Posted by maxbialystock


    He was "horrible" for one month of his career, but pretty much lights out the rest of 2011 and all of 2010.  The whole pitching staff was pretty much "horrible" in September last year, which believe it or not, can be infectious, just like hitting can be.  If he struggles over his next few starts and Dice-K shows he's ready, then maybe it would be a good idea to go work on his command in Pawtucket, but I think he's shown enough to warrant at least a few more starts.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    I agree in letting him keep starting because Matsuzaka isn't ready yet. Also agree on not tossing him away.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    My only concern about Bard is his mental game.  He seems to let little things bother him (calls he didn't get or a pitch he wishes he could take back) and he has a hard time putting it behind him and focusing on the next hitter.  I think it will come in time - he needs a few strong starts in a row to build confidence.

    Last night was the first time in 7 games that the Sox staff gave up more than 3 runs.  
     
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