Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    I know there have been a few threads on this but he really does.  I understand his strong desire to start.  There is a lot more money in being a good MLB starter than in being a good set up man.  But he really solidifies the bullpen, he is good there, and the Red Sox need him.

    Cook could be an okay 5 starter for now and Dice (like him or not) is back in a month anyway.

    I really hope that Bobby V mans up and does what should be done here.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    It isn't up to Bobby V.

    But I agree, he should be in the BP.

    Just curious, but what is the difference in salary between a starter and a closer?  Let's say that Bard could become a #3 starter or a closer just below Pap.  Is that a $20 million difference over his lifetime, $40 million?

    I know that some people, particularly in the media, feel that Bard isn't being a team player by not wanting to go to the BP.  But if it meant a difference of $40 million over his lifetime, then his reluctance would be more understandable.  Particularly since he'd be doing it to compensate for a bad decision by management.  I mean, I know how I would feel if a bad decision by management cost me money.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN. Show COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    whoa, i initially misread your title. no way snake. bard has more value as a starter. DON'T PANIC! yesterday was a freakish tease. you mentioned that bailey was returning. once he does you can slot guys back to their comfort levels. the bullpen's ERa is 8+, no way that continues, same with the 43% of inherited runners scoring and bout the same of first batters faced getting on base. these things go in circle. on paper, these guys simply as bad as their results indicate. lets give it through mid-may!

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from elvis-surfs. Show elvis-surfs's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    we need starters, the guy wants to start, he sukks in the pen cuz he doesnt have the stomach for it...why the heck is this still being talked about?...
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    In Response to Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen:
    [QUOTE]It isn't up to Bobby V. But I agree, he should be in the BP. Just curious, but what is the difference in salary between a starter and a closer?  Let's say that Bard could become a #3 starter or a closer just below Pap.  Is that a $20 million difference over his lifetime, $40 million? I know that some people, particularly in the media, feel that Bard isn't being a team player by not wanting to go to the BP.  But if it meant a difference of $40 million over his lifetime, then his reluctance would be more understandable.  Particularly since he'd be doing it to compensate for a bad decision by management.  I mean, I know how I would feel if a bad decision by management cost me money.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]


    Well Papelbon as a top tier closer is making abut 12 million a year.  Beckett is at 17 million a year and there are all sorts of guys making more money than that as starters.  there also is only one closer position obviously, other BP guys make a lot less.  Being a starter is where the money is.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    In Response to Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen:
    [QUOTE]whoa, i initially misread your title. no way snake. bard has more value as a starter. DON'T PANIC! yesterday was a freakish tease. you mentioned that bailey was returning. once he does you can slot guys back to their comfort levels. the bullpen's ERa is 8+, no way that continues, same with the 43% of inherited runners scoring and bout the same of first batters faced getting on base. these things go in circle. on paper, these guys simply as bad as their results indicate. lets give it through mid-may!
    Posted by COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN[/QUOTE]

    I am not in a panic.  I just think he has more value to this team in the Bullpen.  Even when Bailey comes back.  Aceves is struggling mightily as a closer, at this point I am not sure I even want him as my set up man.  he was perfect in those lower pressure situations he pitched in last year.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    Eventually, Bailey and Aceves will do the 8th and 9th innings. With his stuff, Bard should be doing 170-190 innings/year; not half that.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    In Response to Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen:
    [QUOTE]Eventually, Bailey and Aceves will do the 8th and 9th innings. With his stuff, Bard should be doing 170-190 innings/year; not half that.
    Posted by bosoxmal[/QUOTE]

    Agreed on the eventually.  

    But for right now you want  a whoever/Aceves 8th 9th combo for another few months?  Bard could stabilize the BP.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from stuartr29. Show stuartr29's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    Bard needs to man up and do whats best for the team, now its the 8th inninng role he has been successfull doing the past few years, people are seeing now how important that role is. With out those bad bullpen performances instead of 5-10 Sox should be at the least 8-7 big difference.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    I think Bard can develop into a good SP but it needs to be gradual. He should only spot start this year and move into the regular rotation next year. We have enough starting pitchers, albeit not great ones at the moment, but Cook can fill the 5 spot for now until Dice gets back next month.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    Look at this way , If Valverde blew seven consecutive saves , do you think for one minute that Leland would consider converting Verlander to closer? The answer: Of course not. Now , I'm not comparing Bard to Verlander by any means , but the idea is the same. Bard does have a chance to be a top of the rotation, big time starting pitcher. And that is more important than a closer.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mchampion. Show Mchampion's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    Bard is better in the pen and it is better for the team that he is there.  The red sox undervalue closers.  IMO they shouldn't.  I feel with a good #1 and a good closer you have the start to a very good pitching staff.  You can mix and match the rest of the staff if those 2 guys are steady and dependable.  
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    In Response to Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen:
    [QUOTE]Look at this way , If Valverde blew seven consecutive saves , do you think for one minute that Leland would consider converting Verlander to closer? The answer: Of course not. Now , I'm not comparing Bard to Verlander by any means , but the idea is the same. Bard does have a chance to be a top of the rotation, big time starting pitcher. And that is more important than a closer.
    Posted by dgalehouse[/QUOTE]

    That would only be a good analogy if Verlander had been Detroits set up guy the past two years.  I do get your point but The Red Sox pen is horrific.  It needs help.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    If it is not all about money, Bard would love to remain as bullpen pitcher.  But the reason he want to be a starter is to make more money in the future at the same time he hope he can be a hall of famer pitcher.  That is why he is trying to be a starter.  If he see that he struggle, then his next route is to be a closer where that is then next best pitching postion to make money.  Being reliever or set up man normally doesnt make good money compare to starting pitcher and closer do.


     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    In Response to Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen:
    [QUOTE]It isn't up to Bobby V. But I agree, he should be in the BP. Just curious, but what is the difference in salary between a starter and a closer?  Let's say that Bard could become a #3 starter or a closer just below Pap.  Is that a $20 million difference over his lifetime, $40 million? I know that some people, particularly in the media, feel that Bard isn't being a team player by not wanting to go to the BP.  But if it meant a difference of $40 million over his lifetime, then his reluctance would be more understandable.  Particularly since he'd be doing it to compensate for a bad decision by management.  I mean, I know how I would feel if a bad decision by management cost me money.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]Yeah it's big money. A #2 - #3 starter who is among the best available in a particular FA market will earn about $16- 18M a year for 5 years. CJ Wilson, with less of a portfolio as starter than Papelbon had as a closer got $77M. Papelbon got $55M. That's $22M. Lackey as risky goods got over $80M. 

    As for the media they are playing on the fact Bard said he did not want to go two days in a row in relief, between starts. Right now the team isn't asking him to go back to the BP, they are skipping over a start to keep the other guys in rotation.

    Now if one assumed the RS had enough starting pitching aside from Bard and were only a closer short, it would be in their interest to solidify the closer role and those 30-40 save opportunities.

    But if the RS aren't a playoff team, why wouldn't they try and turn Bard into a solid middle to top of the rotation guy impacting 200 IP a year, rather than 60 plus a closer would impact?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    The whole Bard / BP thing is really interesting.  I think it is clear the team is on board with the idea of the project and that Bard is more valuable if he can be a good starter.  But given how this year has gone with injuries it is really tempting to pull the plug and send him back to the pen.  However, what happens with Doubront, Cook and Dice probably plays much more of a role in how they decide this than people seem to think.  Say they move Cook into the rotation and send Bard to the pen ... what happens when Dice comes back?  Will they make him a starter?  If so, who else gets bumped to the pen: Doubie or Cook?  I mean, do you really want to take two promising young starters and send them to the pen in favor of two guys who won't be here next year?  If Cook is the one who will get bumped by Dice, then I think it's clear Bard should stay in the rotation for now and Cook should go straight to the pen from AAA.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    In Response to Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen:
    [QUOTE]The whole Bard / BP thing is really interesting.  I think it is clear the team is on board with the idea of the project and that Bard is more valuable if he can be a good starter.  But given how this year has gone with injuries it is really tempting to pull the plug and send him back to the pen.  However, what happens with Doubront, Cook and Dice probably plays much more of a role in how they decide this than people seem to think.  Say they move Cook into the rotation and send Bard to the pen ... what happens when Dice comes back?  Will they make him a starter?  If so, who else gets bumped to the pen: Doubie or Cook?  I mean, do you really want to take two promising young starters and send them to the pen in favor of two guys who won't be here next year?  If Cook is the one who will get bumped by Dice, then I think it's clear Bard should stay in the rotation for now and Cook should go straight to the pen from AAA.
    Posted by 111SoxFan111[/QUOTE]You bring up some interesting points.

    Now the slippery part of succession planning is you can't project injury. Will the RS get 30 starts out of Lester, Beckett, Buch and Douby? You always hope that will happen but how often does a team get 120 starts out of their first four starters?

    So while we don't know how it would work out today it is likely that there will be starts available for Bard, Cook and if he is physically able to perfrom, Dice K.


    Short term Bard makes the bullpen better at critical point in the BP rotation. But is it enough to make a huge difference in 2012?  IMHO probably not and if (and this is big if) Bard can become anywhere near as good a starter as he is a reliever in the next 4 seasons, the RS are better off in the long run with staying the course on making Bard a starter.

    I happened to have thought that Bard should have been the closer when Paplebon walked but now that the RS are "in" with Bard as a starter and the BP is exposed as so bad (Bailey injured, Melancon a car wreck), I think they should stay the course.    
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    In Response to Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen : Now the slippery part of succession planning is you can't project injury. Will the RS get 30 starts out of Lester, Beckett, Buch and Douby? You always hope that will happen but how often does a team get 120 starts out of their first four starters? So while we don't know how it would work out today it is likely that there will be starts available for Bard, Cook and if he is physically able to perfrom, Dice K. 

    Short term Bard makes the bullpen better at critical point in the BP rotation. But is it enough to make a huge difference in 2012?  IMHO probably not and if (and this is big if) Bard can become anywhere near as good a starter as he is a reliever in the next 4 seasons, the RS are better off in the long run with staying the course on making Bard a starter. 
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    I agree they should keep Bard in the rotation for now.  Your point about injuries/missed starts supports that IMO since I think it is a bad idea to send Bard to the pen then bring him back to the rotation again.  Also, the idea that Cook may not be in the rotation for the remainder of the season I think makes it clearer that Bard should stay in the rotation for now.  Overall, I think there is more upside to keeping him as a starter for now.  Doing so gives the FO more time to evaluate him as a starter, gives more quality innings and smooths the way for a transfer to the BP for the remainder of the season whenever they decide he's done enough starts for the season.  The one thing I don't want to see is them yanking him back and forth.  I think that's a disaster in the making as it may lead to poor performance in both roles and, more importantly, increases injury risk.  If they decide he's more valuable in the pen, that's fine too ... as long as they have depth plans for those inevitable missed starts so Bard can stay in the pen and not become a spot starter.  If you need a swingman, I'd rather use Cook and/or Dice as cannon fodder since we don't have to worry about them next year.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    Bard should have been give the closer role the day Paps walked; now it is all a mess.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    I think if they make a decision to move him to the pen, and if more than a couple of weeks pass, they should keep him there. If the plan is to bring him back to the rotation, then he should only miss one start. Then let him reach his innings count for the season and see if you can then use him effectively for those last 20 innings out of the pen in Sept. and playoffs.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    Moon - I am amazed that someone as conversant in stats as you places so much emphasis on the closer role.  IMO, Bard was more valuable than Paps last year ... high leverage stoppers beat closers every time.  And starters are worth more than any arm in the BP ... at least when they are good starters.  With the BP as bad as it has been, I don't think you can say Bard not being in the pen created the mess.  There are too many poor performances for it all to be fixed by one pitcher.

    Jessey - With all due respect, it is a sad statement on Sox fandom that you are one of the most rational voices here ;)
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    Bard should be a starter because he has the pitches to be a starter.  The BP is for pitchers who only have 1 or 2 pitches.  A starter needs at least 3.  I believe Bard has 4.

    It might be better for the team this year if Bard was the closer, but I think in the long term it benefits the team more to leave him as a starter.  (Bobby V isn't here for the long term.)

    If they need a reliever more than they need a starter, then they should trade Bard for a reliever plus other players because Bard is worth more than a reliever.

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Bard really has to stay in the bullpen

    In response to "Bard really has to stay in the bullpen": [QUOTE]I know there have been a few threads on this but he really does.  I understand his strong desire to start.  There is a lot more money in being a good MLB starter than in being a good set up man.  But he really solidifies the bullpen, he is good there, and the Red Sox need him. Cook could be an okay 5 starter for now and Dice (like him or not) is back in a month anyway. I really hope that Bobby V mans up and does what should be done here. Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE] You must not have watched last nights game whe one of his two outs was a scorcher hit right to Youk. And did you even watch any games last month (September 2011)? He was anything but steady. His ERA last year rose to 3.30. You are assuming he is one of the great relievers in the game when he is not. He could help the bullpen, but hardly solidify a mound of jelly.
     
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