Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    For people who over estimate the youth movement, this article is for you.


    For people who have zero insight into player development and think they can judge a 21 year old rookie from 1 seasons stat line...this is for you.


    To summarize and add my two cents in one sentence; If you think every prospect will reach their ceiling you might be naive, conversely if you think a 21 year old who struggles has little chance of reaching his potential because he struggled as a 21 year old...you might be a grossly misinformed.  Or to be more accurate, not informed at all.  Read it.....leeeeeaaaaaarrrrrrnnnnn something. 


    http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    What I found interesting is out of the top 10 highest ranked position players playing in the MLB according to BA this year......only 2 have averages over .250  This just goes to show you that it is much more common to struggle than have instantaneous success as a rookie in today's game. 

    If we want a successful organization then we have to either accept struggles and have patience, or we should wish to operate like the New York Yankees.

    With the way the new CBA, and new money have been shaping the game...I truly believe the NYY model is going to breakdown in the future.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from chetgnat. Show chetgnat's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    most players have no idea how difficult it will be to face pitchers every night who have great stuff, who have an army of researchers available to study their tendencies and weaknesses, and the ability to take advantage of those weaknesses multiple times per game.

    i don't think there is anything comparable at any other level of baseball. it's probably quite a shock for some of these guys who have just been able to grip it and rip it their whole lives. multi-year process to adjust. 

    then there's the added responsibilities of being a major leaguer, and the travel, and the money questions, and the hangers-on, and family issues, and starting your own family, and becoming an adult, etc. etc.

    and a 24 x 365 media landscape never before seen in the history of civilization. not easy.

    so yeah, patience is the key right now, but in a win-now, win-always environment, the organization isn't going to wait around for very long. 'tis but a business of course.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    In response to chetgnat's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    most players have no idea how difficult it will be to face pitchers every night who have great stuff, who have an army of researchers available to study their tendencies and weaknesses, and the ability to take advantage of those weaknesses multiple times per game.

    i don't think there is anything comparable at any other level of baseball. it's probably quite a shock for some of these guys who have just been able to grip it and rip it their whole lives. multi-year process to adjust. 

    then there's the added responsibilities of being a major leaguer, and the travel, and the money questions, and the hangers-on, and family issues, and starting your own family, and becoming an adult, etc. etc.

    and a 24 x 365 media landscape never before seen in the history of civilization. not easy.

    so yeah, patience is the key right now, but in a win-now, win-always environment, the organization isn't going to wait around for very long. 'tis but a business of course.

    [/QUOTE]

    Good points, that is why you need veterans as well.  You can do both, but you need proven talent performing as well.  The Sox literally got hit with an everything failed outcome this year.  They weighed to heavily on rookies and they mostly all struggled, and the veterans failed to pick them up and perform themselves. 

    This team is horrible, but the organization is still in a great spot.  I'm all about the youth movement, but you can't start 3 rookies on a team and expect to win.

    For every Mike Trout there are 4-5 future really good MLBers who struggle as rookies. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    In response to chetgnat's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    most players have no idea how difficult it will be to face pitchers every night who have great stuff, who have an army of researchers available to study their tendencies and weaknesses, and the ability to take advantage of those weaknesses multiple times per game.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think you just touched on one of the major reasons pitching and defense are so dominant right now.  I think computer technology on the defensive side is winning the battle.  And hitters don't really have any technological tools they can counter with. 

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to chetgnat's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    most players have no idea how difficult it will be to face pitchers every night who have great stuff, who have an army of researchers available to study their tendencies and weaknesses, and the ability to take advantage of those weaknesses multiple times per game.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think you just touched on one of the major reasons pitching and defense are so dominant right now.  I think computer technology on the defensive side is winning the battle.  And hitters don't really have any technological tools they can counter with. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Red Sox try to get ahead of the curve when they can.  Things look ugly at the MLB level this year but they see where the future is heading, which is why they've been trying to stockpile pitching on top of pitching in the minors. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    Good points, that is why you need veterans as well.  You can do both, but you need proven talent performing as well.  The Sox literally got hit with an everything failed outcome this year.  They weighed to heavily on rookies and they mostly all struggled, and the veterans failed to pick them up and perform themselves. 


    This team is horrible, but the organization is still in a great spot.  I'm all about the youth movement, but you can't start 3 rookies on a team and expect to win.


    For every Mike Trout there are 4-5 future really good MLBers who struggle as rookies. 


    [/QUOTE]

    and there's the rub


    to many growing pains to absorb at 1 time

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/08/22/red-sox-made-rookie-mistakes-with-bogaerts-bradley/UU8BvcvtLgZNHCaonEIdoO/story.html?event=event25

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    article that i posted make a little sense to me.  They may be all called up too early.  Need to play AAA ball a little bit longer!!  That is why I do not want to see Owen to be called up too soon.  One more year in AAA will develop him a better pitcher!!

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    Good points, that is why you need veterans as well.  You can do both, but you need proven talent performing as well.  The Sox literally got hit with an everything failed outcome this year.  They weighed to heavily on rookies and they mostly all struggled, and the veterans failed to pick them up and perform themselves. 

     

    This team is horrible, but the organization is still in a great spot.  I'm all about the youth movement, but you can't start 3 rookies on a team and expect to win.

     

    For every Mike Trout there are 4-5 future really good MLBers who struggle as rookies. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    and there's the rub

     

    to many growing pains to absorb at 1 time

    [/QUOTE]

    The Key word there is expect.  I still think Xander Bogaerts is going to be a really good player, and I also think he COULD be one of the better players in all of baseball but that doesn't mean he has to do it in his rookie year; that expectation is wrong.  But it could have happened......and if it did happen the Sox might look a little different.

    If JBJ and Bogaerts played this year as well as they might be playing in 4 years from now, people would probably have a completely different outlook on rookies.  But the reality is, it is far more common for a player to need 2-3 years to have success at the MLB level than it is for them to have instantaneous success. 

    Another thing that bothers me to is how people assume that all our prospects have "lost their value" that is ridiculous.  MLB front offices and owners aren't dumb like a lot of fans are and they understand that young players struggle and take years to come into their own.  A player like Bogaerts has seen a significantly smaller drop in his stock than a guy like WMB's this year. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:


    article that i posted make a little sense to me.  They may be all called up too early.  Need to play AAA ball a little bit longer!!  That is why I do not want to see Owen to be called up too soon.  One more year in AAA will develop him a better pitcher!!




    thank you!!!! I've been saying this for a while myself.  Sometimes I feel like I'm the guy hyping up all the rookies in here.  I love following prospects and like to project their ceilings and talk about the player they are capable of becoming.  I do realize though that not all guys reach their potential and the ones that do all do so at differing speeds and take time.  I feel like I'm pumping up a guy one moment and then trying to urge caution at bringing guys up too soon and tempering expectations the next minute.


    I said the same things about rushing JBJ, although admittedly I did think he would have figured it out by now.  I was against promoting Betts back in May when people wanted to bring him up then.  I would be absolutely fine with Owens starting all of next year in Pawtucket with him getting a cup of coffee towards the end of the year.  If he's dominating, and a spot opens up it won't be the worst thing in the world if we see him sooner than that.....but all the talk of bringing him up this year was ridiculous. 


     


    Good article too, I was almost going to post that as well. 

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    In response to BogieAt12oclock's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    For people who over estimate the youth movement, this article is for you.

     

    For people who have zero insight into player development and think they can judge a 21 year old rookie from 1 seasons stat line...this is for you.

     

    To summarize and add my two cents in one sentence; If you think every prospect will reach their ceiling you might be naive, conversely if you think a 21 year old who struggles has little chance of reaching his potential because he struggled as a 21 year old...you might be a grossly misinformed.  Or to be more accurate, not informed at all.  Read it.....leeeeeaaaaaarrrrrrnnnnn something. 

     

    http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/

    [/QUOTE]

    Still apologizing for the farm system; you should work for the SOX FO.

    [/QUOTE]

    You should read those articles and learn something and do a little research.  Then come back and try to bring some substance into the debate. 

     
  14. This post has been removed.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    In response to BogieAt12oclock's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to BogieAt12oclock's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    For people who over estimate the youth movement, this article is for you.

     

     

     

    For people who have zero insight into player development and think they can judge a 21 year old rookie from 1 seasons stat line...this is for you.

     

     

     

    To summarize and add my two cents in one sentence; If you think every prospect will reach their ceiling you might be naive, conversely if you think a 21 year old who struggles has little chance of reaching his potential because he struggled as a 21 year old...you might be a grossly misinformed.  Or to be more accurate, not informed at all.  Read it.....leeeeeaaaaaarrrrrrnnnnn something. 

     

     

     

    http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-the-struggles-of-top-prospects-in-mlb/

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Still apologizing for the farm system; you should work for the SOX FO.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You should read those articles and learn something and do a little research.  Then come back and try to bring some substance into the debate. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Based on your posts, would COW PIE be considered a substance?

    [/QUOTE]

    Don't insult me, please try to bring some intellect to the conversation and if you are in here to just bash and annoy me then please leave.  This forum works a lot better when people talk.  

    Substance is a lot more valuable than Statements.  You obviously have no interest in educating yourself on player development and familiarizing yourself with minor league systems so why are you here???? you're here to incite some kind of argument that doesn't even need to take place.

    Debate is fine, debate based on topic at hand....but you don't want that you want to just argue with people. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    At least I have points, your the most pointless poster in here. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    At least I have points, your the most pointless poster in here. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Hugh i thought I was - at least that's what you said last month - maybe you should ask yourself why are you moving the goalposts in regards to the Sox farm system. You were very vocal about saying how great the Sox system was, how it stacked it is and how it will give the team long term success. Now you're posting about people not understanding the system and having no patience. I asked you a simple question a few weeks ago. Who is the last Red Sox prospect to turn into a good/above average player (the kind that you said the Sox farms were stocked with)? 

    Perhaps you should simply consider what other "useless" posters are saying. That the team is lousy, our rookies have tanked, and the ones who have been called up will continue the Sox slide into the abyss. The only hope is to abandon the prospects and trade them for something, and concentrate on free agent signings. Does that make us the Yankees? Who flipping cares? Get a team that is competitive and entertaining. More Cespesdes and less Webster please. 

    Btw trey Ball's last start  2 innings/4 runs or some nonsense like that. he's in low A ball. I can't wait until he matures and gets the call mid season in 2019 and then is traded at the deadline for a utility player...

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    At least I have points, your the most pointless poster in here. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Hugh i thought I was - at least that's what you said last month - maybe you should ask yourself why are you moving the goalposts in regards to the Sox farm system. You were very vocal about saying how great the Sox system was, how it stacked it is and how it will give the team long term success. Now you're posting about people not understanding the system and having no patience. I asked you a simple question a few weeks ago. Who is the last Red Sox prospect to turn into a good/above average player (the kind that you said the Sox farms were stocked with)? 

    Perhaps you should simply consider what other "useless" posters are saying. That the team is lousy, our rookies have tanked, and the ones who have been called up will continue the Sox slide into the abyss. The only hope is to abandon the prospects and trade them for something, and concentrate on free agent signings. Does that make us the Yankees? Who flipping cares? Get a team that is competitive and entertaining. More Cespesdes and less Webster please. 

    Btw trey Ball's last start  2 innings/4 runs or some nonsense like that. he's in low A ball. I can't wait until he matures and gets the call mid season in 2019 and then is traded at the deadline for a utility player...

    [/QUOTE]

    SEE!!! at least Gerome tries to make an argument, even if I completely disagree with it, it makes for conversation....Bogey doesn't even talk about anything.

    "maybe you should ask yourself why are you moving the goalposts in regards to the Sox farm system. You were very vocal about saying how great the Sox system was, how it stacked it is and how it will give the team long term success"

    Wrong.  I still say the Sox have one of the strongest systems in the league, your point proves that you've still failed to see my points.  A strong farm does not equal instantaneous success, often it is more useful in predicting success 3-4 years down the line.  To invalidate my argument please check back with me in 2-3 years seeing how the system has only really been stacked for the last year. 

    I asked you a simple question a few weeks ago. Who is the last Red Sox prospect to turn into a good/above average player (the kind that you said the Sox farms were stocked with)?

    I never saw this question.  The last star was Ellsbury, although many MLBers have been produced since then.  Like I said a stocked farm system takes years to show what it has.  The Sox were considered stacked back in 2005-2006 and those players started to trickle out and show their worth years after the fact. The last time the Sox farm system was considered highly talented and regarded this highly was back in 2004-2006.  Go look at the players in the farm then and you will see that they mostly contributed after those years.  

    http://soxprospects.com/history.htm" rel="nofollow">http://soxprospects.com/history.htm

    You've actually done nothing to invalidate that point here. 

    tw trey Ball's last start 2 innings/4 runs or some nonsense like that. he's in low A ball.

     

    I actually predicted this.  Trey Ball is reaching an innings limit, and highschool players are used to very low work loads,  It is a huge transition to full season ball and it is actually very common for high school draftees to slow down at the end of their first full season.  We've been through this argument a million times. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    Now I have a question for you Gerome.  I'd like to stay on topic here and not turn this into a bashing each other. 

    Did you read the article??? and what did you think about it?

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    At least I have points, your the most pointless poster in here. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Hugh i thought I was - at least that's what you said last month - maybe you should ask yourself why are you moving the goalposts in regards to the Sox farm system. You were very vocal about saying how great the Sox system was, how it stacked it is and how it will give the team long term success. Now you're posting about people not understanding the system and having no patience. I asked you a simple question a few weeks ago. Who is the last Red Sox prospect to turn into a good/above average player (the kind that you said the Sox farms were stocked with)? 

    Perhaps you should simply consider what other "useless" posters are saying. That the team is lousy, our rookies have tanked, and the ones who have been called up will continue the Sox slide into the abyss. The only hope is to abandon the prospects and trade them for something, and concentrate on free agent signings. Does that make us the Yankees? Who flipping cares? Get a team that is competitive and entertaining. More Cespesdes and less Webster please. 

    Btw trey Ball's last start  2 innings/4 runs or some nonsense like that. he's in low A ball. I can't wait until he matures and gets the call mid season in 2019 and then is traded at the deadline for a utility player...

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree with geo. This idea about prospects, this reliance on non-MLB talent trying to become viable MLB talent way too ahead of their time is an abject failure by the Sox. They either don't understand how much they are hurting guys who don't belong here or they have a terrible farm system. It's one or the other. I think that pitchers are always way ahead of hitters in how they develop. Sox may have some talent here with De La Rosa and even Tommy NightTrain Lane as a lefty reliever, but the position guys are easy outs...everyone of them are routine outs for pitchers. The 3 WS title teams were veteran-laden, very few prospect teams. End of story. One way works, the other doesn't.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    There is a difference between not being MLB ready and having a weak farm.  These guys are called prospects for a reason. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    Then the Sox have a weak farm system.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    Not a single guy brought to the majors has batted anywhere close to tolerable for a MLB lineup. Not even one.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    Vasquez due to his position is the closest to filling the bill as a tolerable MLB player...and he can't really hit.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Bashing rookies/ Hyping rookies

    The 3 WS title teams were veteran-laden, very few prospect teams.

    For 2004 this is true, but 2007 included Pedey, Youk, Ellsbury (by the end), Lester, and Papelbon, all farm graduates in their 1st or 2nd major league season.

    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

     

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