Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chilliwings. Show Chilliwings's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years):
    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years) : As Curt Schilling said "use your eyes".... it was obvious Beckett was no super-star even in August 2011. If you give up 6 runs one start and then give up 0 the next I do not think that makes you necessarily a good pitcher. If you pitch 7 innings every other start but cannot get past the 5th inning the other starts then NO I ddon't think that makes you a good pitcher, no matter what the AVERAGES are.
    Posted by EnchiladaT


    That is simply not what happened in 2011.  Are you deliberately making this up, or do you just forget what happened?  24 starts out of 30 he gave up 3 or fewer runs.  13 times he went 7-9 innings and only 5 times under 6 innings....and one of those he was injured and left after 3.2 inning / 0 runs.  12 times between 6-7.....and a lot of that was due to our (for a while) killer bullpen rather than him struggling.

    So 25 out of 30 starts he pitched 6 or more innings.  Any other false memories you want to bring up about Beckett's 2011 season?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pri360. Show pri360's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years):
    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years) : Maybe I am misunderstanding your post, but are you judging King Felix by his W-L record?
    Posted by RedSoxKimmi


    No; I 'm saying that aside from one sterling season he is a 6 games oveer .500 for his career and that the Mariners could get a lot better if they plugged several holes in their roster as opposed to having one stud at the top of the lineup surrounded by mediocrity. Finding pitchers that can go 12-10 - which is King Felix's record sans his 2009 season ... and fortifyting your team offensively with an inexpensive middlebrooks, trumbo, trout, freese type player makes more sense to me ... than having a mercedes in your garage and not having the money to put gas in it.

    In the case of beckett; tearing apart his statistics and declaring him a top pitcher; seems to me ... to be a fools errand if you're not winning his starts and he is potentially a detriment to team chemistry. Sometimes stats are deceptive to whats really happening on the field. JD Drew is a good example of that.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from pri360. Show pri360's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years):
    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years) : That is simply not what happened in 2011.  Are you deliberately making this up, or do you just forget what happened?  24 starts out of 30 he gave up 3 or fewer runs.  13 times he went 7-9 innings and only 5 times under 6 innings....and one of those he was injured and left after 3.2 inning / 0 runs.  12 times between 6-7.....and a lot of that was due to our (for a while) killer bullpen rather than him struggling. So 25 out of 30 starts he pitched 6 or more innings.  Any other false memories you want to bring up about Beckett's 2011 season?
    Posted by Chilliwings
    Sox were 20-10 in games that he started - have to agree with you. He's still an enigma.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years):
    Are you joking? To quote someone-or-other: "you are what your record says you are". The record says he's become a bum.
    Posted by Brickbat



    Cy Young voters don't agree with you.

    In 2011 Beckett was far better than his W/L record indicated, considering how well he pitched to only have 13 wins was unlucky.  That is not really debatable. He was 9th in Cy Young voting, 2 relievers were ahead of him so in 2011 Beckett was the 7th best starter in the AL.

    So far in 2012 his W/L record is about a fair indicator of how well he has pitched but Roy is correct, there are plently of games, 7IP 4ER/6IP 3ER, that could easily be wins.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years):
    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years) : As Curt Schilling said "use your eyes".... it was obvious Beckett was no super-star even in August 2011. If you give up 6 runs one start and then give up 0 the next I do not think that makes you necessarily a good pitcher. If you pitch 7 innings every other start but cannot get past the 5th inning the other starts then NO I ddon't think that makes you a good pitcher, no matter what the AVERAGES are.
    Posted by EnchiladaT


    So I guess Verlander isn't a superstar. He has allowed five runs four times this year.


     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    This actually reminds me of Clemens his last few years with Sox. There is no question had Rocket had some shaky bullpen behind him combined with some putrid offense (that was his number one killer, no run support), Rocket would have had some 15 win years during that awful stretch instead of the 40 total he had between 93-96--also injuries hurt Rocket--injuries have affected Beckett as well. But one thing is for sure--when Roger was entering the twilight--and DD was right--his ERA ballooned those years after brilliance from 86-92--that's when he started to take steroids. Beckett won't have that luxury. Roy is right, though, that there have been many a Beckett start last few seasons where his team did nothing offensively  and he deserved better than the numerous no decisions. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In 2011, at the All-Star Break, Beckett was definitely in the Cy Young hunt, probably in the top 3.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    based on this analysis, i think we need to give him a raise and give him the title of Commander..
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chilliwings. Show Chilliwings's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years):
    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years) : Sox were 20-10 in games that he started - have to agree with you. He's still an enigma.
    Posted by pri360


    Agree re enigma.  Had great stuff, still has good stuff, generally been a great big game pitcher....somehow just hasn't been able to put it all together consistently over a long period (years) of time.  But he more than earned his salary last year, by far, and he still has time to rebuild his 2012 season into something respectable.....though it's not been as bad as the Beckettists believe.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    At least Beckett hasn't insulted the Olympics hosts, so maybe he would make a better "Commander" and Chief than you know who...the Village Idiot of Riches.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    If you give up 6 runs one start and then give up 0 the next I do not think that makes you necessarily a good pitcher. If you pitch 7 innings every other start but cannot get past the 5th inning the other starts then NO I ddon't think that makes you a good pitcher, no matter what the AVERAGES are.

    softy the clown loves to twist the facts.

    He could have also worded it this way:

    From May 5th to Sept 4th, Josh pitchedd less than 6 IP only 2 times and both of those games were 5 IP. 

    How many other Sox starters or MLB starters did that?

    He pitched 50 innings in 7 starts from June 15th to July 28th then 37 in six August starts. He never let up 6 ERs until his last 2 starts of the season (not in the summer). That's 87 IP in 13 starts or about 6 2/3 IP per start. I'd hardly count htat as "barely"pitching 6 innings per start.

    June 15th on to Sept 4th...
    IP  ER
    9  0
    6  5
    8  1
    5  3
    8  0
    7  1
    7  3
    6  2
    6  1
    5  5
    7  3
    6  1
    7  4

    I wish we had 5 guys doing this right now.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years):
    This is actually reminds me of Clemens has last few years with Sox. There is no question had Rocket had some bullpen behind him combined with some offense (that was his number one killer, no run support), Rocket would have had some 15 win years during that awful stretch instead of the 40 total he had between 93-96--also injuries hurt Rocket--injuries have affected Beckett as well. But one thing is for sure--when Roger was entering the twilight--and DD was right--his ERA ballooned those years after brilliance from 86-92--that's when he started to take steroids. Beckett won't have that luxury. Roy is right, though, that there have been many a Beckett start last few seasons where his team did nothing offensively  and he deserved better than the numerous no decisions. 
    Posted by dannycater


    I don't know if Clemens was on anything with the Sox or not, but even though he had a couple of off years at the end, his last year with the Sox he was pretty good but just didn't get run support.

    As for Beckett, you hear pundits talk about the effect on the offense when they keep coming to bat down three or four or five runs in the first inning like what was happening. I don't discout that hitters can start pressing. In fact, that could have been the blame last September when pitchers, not Beckett and Lester, kept getting lit up early.

    But what about the reverse. What's the effect on a pitcher when he has all those stellar games Beckett had last year, especially early, including two games going at least seven scoreless innings, and leaving w/o a decision.

    It's not an excuse for not doing his job, but it also is not an excuse for hitters not doing their job either.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years):
    based on this analysis, i think we need to give him a raise and give him the title of Commander..
    Posted by georom4


    Actually, the only think I want out of this is when people bash Beckett, they use something other than his W-L record.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years):
    In 2011, at the All-Star Break, Beckett was definitely in the Cy Young hunt, probably in the top 3.
    Posted by dannycater


    Then JD Drew, Youkilis, Dice K, along with few others went on DL.  That hurted Beckett chance of winning over 20 games last year as well a chance to make into the playoff.  Beckett was trying to put a stop on every losing streak that they had in the month of August and September due Lackey was hurt, Bucholtz/Dice K was out of the season, Lester couldnt get any better and bullpen fell apart!!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    Well, roy, this goes back to something that unfortunately is a major argument between a few of us and most of the board--and that's pitching is everything. It's not, it's greatly important, but it's not the end game for winning. The Sox offense has been a sputtering inconsistent one all this season and certainly was a bit of a joke for about 3 months in the Bridge Year. Last year, the offense was great--certainly far more consistent than this pathetic bunch. Blame it on injuries, blame it on lack of good hitters, but it's a constant that has severely hurt the team. Of course, this will be answered by those who will cite the Sox total runs scored and how it compares to the rest of MLB--etc....But the team simply scores a ton of runs in their wins and not so much in their losses, many of which are the type that Beckett threw v. Texas. 5 hits, 2 HR of course, because the Sox don't score runs by the natural way--stringing hits, walks and other outs to push them across...It's HR or no run.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    The team has I think its lowest OBP than in any season prior to 2003? Am I right, I haven't checked the numbers, but it appears that way. Something as bad as a .300 team OBP I think over the last month or so. I think notin mentioned how does the team expect to have clutch hitting if there is no one on base to drive them in? I have to agree.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    The Beckett loyalists are starting to sound like the Wakefield loyalists of last year.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    He's 5-9 bottom line. That's not good enough.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    yes, denny, i'm a Wakefield loyalist, and I can tell you he got bashed so poorly by people the last few years in a Sox jersey, it was a low point for fans in this forum. 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years):
    Well, roy, this goes back to something that unfortunately is a major argument between a few of us and most of the board--and that's pitching is everything. It's not, it's greatly important, but it's not the end game for winning. The Sox offense has been a sputtering inconsistent one all this season and certainly was a bit of a joke for about 3 months in the Bridge Year. Last year, the offense was great--certainly far more consistent than this pathetic bunch. Blame it on injuries, blame it on lack of good hitters, but it's a constant that has severely hurt the team. Of course, this will be answered by those who will cite the Sox total runs scored and how it compares to the rest of MLB--etc....But the team simply scores a ton of runs in their wins and not so much in their losses, many of which are the type that Beckett threw v. Texas. 5 hits, 2 HR of course, because the Sox don't score runs by the natural way--stringing hits, walks and other outs to push them across...It's HR or no run.
    Posted by dannycater


    This was true about the Sox offense in 2011 as well.  The overall numbers were impressive but the offense was not consistent.  I remember them scoring 18 runs a couple times but if you score 1,18,3 in consecutive games, 7+ runs a game sounds great but really it wasn't.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years):
    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years) : No; I 'm saying that aside from one sterling season he is a 6 games oveer .500 for his career and that the Mariners could get a lot better if they plugged several holes in their roster as opposed to having one stud at the top of the lineup surrounded by mediocrity. Finding pitchers that can go 12-10 - which is King Felix's record sans his 2009 season ... and fortifyting your team offensively with an inexpensive middlebrooks, trumbo, trout, freese type player makes more sense to me ... than having a mercedes in your garage and not having the money to put gas in it. In the case of beckett; tearing apart his statistics and declaring him a top pitcher; seems to me ... to be a fools errand if you're not winning his starts and he is potentially a detriment to team chemistry. Sometimes stats are deceptive to whats really happening on the field. JD Drew is a good example of that.
    Posted by pri360


    Fair enough about your opinion that Seattle should trade Felix to fortify their team offensively. It makes sense.

    However, I am very much bothered by this statement:

    "Finding pitchers that can go 12-10 - which is King Felix's record sans his 2009 season"

    although I think I understand what your point is.


    As far as Beckett goes, I don't think anyone has declared him a top pitcher for this season. We're just saying that he is pitching better than his W-L record indicates. He hasn't pitched as badly as many people would have you believe.

    Yes, sometimes stats can be deceptive as to what is really happening on the field. Beckett's W-L record is a perfect example.

    As far as his attitude and bad clubhouse presence go, I'm not sure that is as bad as some people portray it either, but I agree that he needs to step it up and start exhibiting some of those intangibles.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years):
    The Beckett loyalists are starting to sound like the Wakefield loyalists of last year.
    Posted by dgalehouse


    In 2011 Wakefield wasn't 1 year removed from a season when he was a top 10 American League pitcher, which Beckett was last year. 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    You don't need to look at his W-L record to argue he is having a crappy season this year.  His ERA is bad and his strikeouts are down.  You can try and massage his potential W-L record with hypotheticals all you want.  The bottom line is he isn't pitching well for a top of the rotation guy.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years):
    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years) : In 2011 Wakefield wasn't 1 year removed from a season when he was a top 10 American League pitcher, which Beckett was last year. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards


    Beckett had a good season last year, but that has not been in the norm during his career in Boston.  This is his 7th season.  Of the previous 6 he's had 2 undeniably terrible seasons (2006, 2010), 2 decent seasons (2008, 2009) and 2 high level seaons (2007, 2011).  This year so far is at best somewhere in between his terrible seasons and his decent ones.  He has not been a consistent pitcher in Boston which is why he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from last season (ignoring his decreased velocity and strikeout numbers this year).
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years)

    In Response to Re: Beckett Can't Catch a Break (Or Why He Could be 35-8 Over The Last Two Years):
    The Beckett loyalists are starting to sound like the Wakefield loyalists of last year.
    Posted by dgalehouse


    difference being, gale, Wakefield was perceived by many, if not most, to be hurting the team on the field. Most who feel Beckett is, think he's hurting the team off the field. That's for the front office to determine, the extent of it and what to do about it, if anything.
     
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