Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

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    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap": It's kind of like a person who tells the same lie over and over again and then starts to believe it. The obsessive compulsives on here who throw up hundreds of posts about a player they dislike with little regard for fact have lost all ability to reason on the subject. They don't even realize it which makes it impossible for them to stop...
    Posted by jasko2248[/QUOTE]

    Amen. Lawitis.
     
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    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    Moon - the quest for that record had a terrible losing psychological effect on the team when it could least afford it....

    You really think the biggest reasons we lost in 2011 were caused by the psychological effects of Wake striving for a record and Beckett having a beer or two in the clubhouse more than starting pitcher injuries and and an over-used bullpen?

    sometimes you cant measure things with stats...not everything has to be quantified...

    You mean when the numbers don't jive with you position, then they don't count.

    and even though Wakefield was not as bad as others in that period, he was not good for an extended time..and he required a caddy, 


    Salty was our starting catcher. The fact that he was Wake's sole catcher did not effect anything.  In fact, Salty was horrible with Wake.

    and he was a lousy fielder, 

    He was lousy in 2010. He was decent in 2011 in the field.

    and teams hit like .400 against him w/risp...

    I thought you said not everything has to be quantified, but I guess only you are allowed to pick and choose what stats are meaningful. Forget the stat that the pen let more of Wake's inherited runners score than anyone else. 

    By the way, the opponents only hit .317 w/RISP NOT .400, so stop the distortions.

    If the Patriots QB had lost eight games in a row putting up fair-lousy numbers like Wake did, would you expect him to continue starting because the back-ups were an unknown factor?

    1) We didn't lose 8 staright games with Wake pitching. We went 2-6 and easily could have gone 4-4 or 5-3.
    2) The back-ups were not "an unknown factor". They stunk, and in Miller's case, have always stunk.
    3) Wake was not pitching poorly (4.81 ERA) duriong that stretch. 4.81 was not "fairly lousy" when compared to Lackey, Miller, and Weiland. If anyone should have been benched like a slumping QB, it should have been Lackey...not Wake. We don't even need numbers to "quantify" that either.

     If the Bruins goalie was 0-10 in last ten starts and had given up over four goals a game, do you think he would not miss a start?

    The anology is not even close to what was going on with Wake and the Sox.

    Wake was over-used out of need. In early August I said he should be given a rest. This was after the team had gone 11-5 in his first 16 starts. I guess that had no value in your mind. What other MLB 6th starter gives their team an 11-5 record? 

    The problem was, we had no better options. Weiland was only brought up out of emergency. There's no way any GM would have said he was MLB-ready. To think he could have done better than 4.81 is showing extreme bias, or in your case anti-bias towards Wake.

    Still, after that 11-5 start, Wake never allowed more than 5 ERs in a start, and let up 5 only once. The Sox could have won any of his last 7 starts.

    I know you hate numbers that do not match with your preconceived notions and righteous positions, but here are some very telling mainstream stats that show that Wake was not the worst of our top 6 or 7 starters, in fact, he wasn't even the worst of our top 5 starters by GS or IP.

    ERA
    1) Beckett 2.89 (30 starts)
    2) Lester   3.47 (31 starts)
    3) Buch     3.48 (only 14 starts)
    4) Bedard  4.03 (only 8 starts) 
    5) Wake    5.12 (23 starts)
    6) Dice-k   5.30 (only 7 starts)
    7) Miller   5.54 (12 starts)
    8) Lackey 6.41 (28 starts)
    9) Weiland 7.66 (5 starts)
    (Out of the top 5 starters by GS'd or IP, Wake placed 4th)

    WHIP
    1) Beckett  1.026
    2) Lester    1.257
    3) Buch      1.294
    4) Wake     1.358
    5) Dice-K    1.473
    6) Bedard   1.553
    7) Lackey   1.619
    8) Weiland 1.662
    9)  Miller    1.815
    (Out of the top 5 starters by IP and GS'd, Wake placed 4th)

    BB/9
    1) Beckett  2.4
    2) Wake     2.7
    3) Lack      3.2
    4) Buch     3.4
    5) Lest      3.5
    6) Bed      4.3
    7) Weil     4.4
    8) Dice     5.5
    9) Miller   5.7

    Wake was our 6th starter. When we obtained Bedard, he was, in effect, our 7th starter. As our 6/7th starter, he pitched like our 4th or 5th best starter, and yet, somehow you and others try and twist that into a major reason we collapsed.

    Stop the insanity!

    Really, don't even look at the numbers, just think, if you really feel the need to blame someone, and it is obviously your continuing obsession, why not look at Lackey. Wouldn't Miller or Weiland have had a better chance improving on his results than Wake's?

    Let's look at Lackey's numbers after August 13th: (Team W or L)
    L  6.2 IP   3 ER
    W 6.2 IP   4 ER
    L  7.0 IP   4 ER
    L  5.0 IP   6 ER
    L  3.0 IP   5 ER
    L  5.1 IP   2 ER
    W 4.1 IP  8 ER
    W 6.0 IP  3 ER

    team 3-5
    Lackey 44 IP 35 ERs (7.16 ERA)

    Then, you want to blame Tito for not knowing that right after Wake had led the team to an 11-5 record (up to Aug 13th), he should have known to bench him in favor of Miller or Weiland.



     
     
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    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    And maybe the subconscious of Red Sox players, particularly the pitchers for Terry Francona's loyalty to Tim, was in the back of their minds, not resentment, but a lingering question in their minds.

    Complete hogwash! Who were the Sox players that had much more confidence in Miller or Weiland starting instead of Wake? How many Sox players were really "subconciously" thinking this? 

    BTW, for some of Wake's starts, there wasn't really any other options since both Weiland and Miller were forced into starting roles as well as a result of Bedard and Beckett missing a start or two.

    I think there was a stretch where our starting 5 was:
    Lester
    Wake
    Lack
    Miller
    Weiland

    ...and you think the team was worried about just Wake?

    ...and the reason we collapsed was because our player secretly did not want Wake on the mind, or as Geo wants us to believe, they knew Josh was drinking beers instead of cheerin for them.

    Stop the insanity!
     
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    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    ... how tense they had to be knowing they were going to fall behind every game????

     

    Do you even remember those games?

     

    I'll refresh your memory:

    After Wake got one win from #200, here's the real story...

     

    7/29  Sox score first 91 run in the 3rd) Wake pitches shutout ball for 5 innings, then lets up 1 ER in the 6th on a bunt single to 3B, a bunt that moves the runner to 3B, a questionable WP that allows the runner to 3B and a Sac fly. Wow! Horrible pitching by Wake! Wake then lets up a BB and HR in the 7th.

    Final line: 7 IP 3 H  3 ER  2 BB He gets the loss. Yup, all his fault!

     

    8/3 Sox score first, again (2 in the 1st). The Indians score 2 in the 4th (one on a GB single up the middle and a GB dbl down the line) and the Sox score 1 in the bottom of the 4th. Wake leaves after going 6.2  5 H  3 ER and 2 BB with the score tied 3-3. We ended up winning, but Paps gets the win.

     

    Has the negative team psychological effects begun yet?

     

    8/14 Seattle scores firts with 3 in the 3rd (one unearned on E6), then gets 1 in the 5th on an weak IF hit to 3B and a GB single up the middle and 6th (HR) and win 5-3.

     

    I'm sure the Sox players by now, were all secretly wishing Weiland would start instead of Wake.

     

    8/20 Sox score 1st (that's 3 out of 4 we scored 1st, but I know, those pesky stats keep getting in your way!) and were up 4-1 going into the bottom of the 6th. (KC had scored their one run on a GB up the middle, a GB out advancing the runner, and a dbld down the line. In the 6th, Wake gets a K, a GB single up the middle, 2 deep dbls and then Albers comes in with us up 4-3 and Wake's man on 2nd with 1 out. The flood gates open and 8 runs end up being scored. (Personally, I think Albers might have had a profound psychological effect on the Sox that game.)


    8/26 Sox score 1st (4 out of 5 now), but Oakland comes right back on a 2B, GB single between 1B & 2B, a WP and another single for 2 runs. Then in the 4th with 2 outs... a BB and HR, a K with a PB reaches 1B, another BB, 2B and HR and we get killed. No, players don't blame Salty for the dropped 3rd strike that lets up 3 runs, they secretly blame Wake for all their troubles, and are distracted by knowing that Beckett is having a beer and chicken while they implode.


    9/2 Wake pitches 4 shoutout relief innings (3 hits/ o BB in a 10-0 loss)


    9/7 Sox score 3 in the first (your statement about falling behind "every game" is looking real truthful, isn't it: 5 out of 6 games Wake started we scored first...so far, but don't let pesky stats get in your way). OK, we're up 3-0 and this happenes: BB, GO, WP, BB, PB, Sac fly. (un earned run). Next inning, up 3-1, Wake let's up a 2-run HR and it's tied in the 2nd. 3rd inning: HBP, WP, 2B, 2 outs, a BB and then a steal of home and an error. The Sox come back and take a 2 run lead in the 4th and later Wake leaves the game with an 8-5 lead. (5 IP  3 H  4 ER). The Sox go on to blow the lead thanks to Wheeler, Bard and Albers letting up 6 runs and we lose 11-10. Wake lets up 4 ERs in 5 IP and the RPs let up 6 ERs in 4 IP, and it's all Wake's fault. I see where the players must be despising Wake by now...subconciously, of course.

    9/13 We score first again (6 of 7 now) and win 18-6, Wake gets number 200. Beckett drinks 2 beers in the 8th and 9th. Team morale suffers, and players hate Wake even more after his big win.

    9/18 Wake has #200, such a big record that the whole team has now become totally mesmerized and can no longer function as evidenced by Salty's dropped 3rd strike that allows 3 unearned runs to score and TB gets off to a 3-0 lead. Later, another unearned run scores  on a 2B, PB, Sac fly, then another on a 1B, SB, WP, and PB, then another on E5 throwing error. Sox down 6-2 and we could have been up 2-0 or 2-1. Wake gets the loss on 5 IP 2 ER. We lose 8-5.


    9/25 Wake's last game. Yanks score first on Bunt Hit (4 feet in front of plate), SB, Bunt hit to 3B, SB & throwing error (E2-unearned run), GO, PB, WP (2nd unearned run). Leter, the Yanks score on a 1B and a 1B to RF (E7 on throw). Wake leaves down 5-1 when it could/should have been 1-1 or 1-2. (We lose 6-2)

    So, after the 199th win and the big distraction, we scored first in 6 of 9 Wake starts, but the psychological effects of that incredibly important milestone crippled the Sox, drove Beckett, Lester and whoever to drink, and have negative thoughts. It all makes sense now. Tito did not sense this unseen force, and so was fired. Theo ran away, and now we need to blow everything up and start over. 


    Please, stop the insanity!


     

     
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    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    http://xfinity.comcast.net/slideshow/sports-2011biggestbusts/11/

    Moon, you have a stat for everything....except you always seem to miss the big ones...like what the sox did in september had never been done before...honestly if you read your posts about last season you would never know it...

    and this is the M.O. of the many on this board...they can tell you the most detailed stat about player to make their argument, but when asked to assign blame for a debacle like we saw in september...they all of sudden speak in generalities....it was the team...it was everyone, it wasnt any one thing, it was the sun and the moon aligning with saturn that caused the tides in boston to move and thus swell beckett's ankle...

     
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    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap:
    [QUOTE]...   how tense they had to be knowing they were going to   fall behind every game ????   Do you even remember those games?   I'll refresh your memory: After Wake got one win from #200, here's the real story...   7/29  Sox score first 91 run in the 3rd) Wake pitches shutout ball for 5 innings, then lets up 1 ER in the 6th on a bunt single to 3B, a bunt that moves the runner to 3B, a questionable WP that allows the runner to 3B and a Sac fly. Wow! Horrible pitching by Wake! Wake then lets up a BB and HR in the 7th. Final line: 7 IP 3 H  3 ER  2 BB He gets the loss. Yup, all his fault!   8/3 Sox score first, again (2 in the 1st). The Indians score 2 in the 4th (one on a GB single up the middle and a GB dbl down the line) and the Sox score 1 in the bottom of the 4th. Wake leaves after going 6.2  5 H  3 ER and 2 BB with the score tied 3-3. We ended up winning, but Paps gets the win.   Has the negative team psychological effects begun yet?   8/14 Seattle scores firts with 3 in the 3rd (one unearned on E6), then gets 1 in the 5th on an weak IF hit to 3B and a GB single up the middle and 6th (HR) and win 5-3.   I'm sure the Sox players by now, were all secretly wishing Weiland would start instead of Wake.   8/20 Sox score 1st (that's 3 out of 4 we scored 1st, but I know, those pesky stats keep getting in your way!) and were up 4-1 going into the bottom of the 6th. (KC had scored their one run on a GB up the middle, a GB out advancing the runner, and a dbld down the line. In the 6th, Wake gets a K, a GB single up the middle, 2 deep dbls and then Albers comes in with us up 4-3 and Wake's man on 2nd with 1 out. The flood gates open and 8 runs end up being scored. (Personally, I think Albers might have had a profound psychological effect on the Sox that game.) 8/26 Sox score 1st (4 out of 5 now), but Oakland comes right back on a 2B, GB single between 1B & 2B, a WP and another single for 2 runs. Then in the 4th with 2 outs... a BB and HR, a K with a PB reaches 1B, another BB, 2B and HR and we get killed. No, players don't blame Salty for the dropped 3rd strike that lets up 3 runs, they secretly blame Wake for all their troubles, and are distracted by knowing that Beckett is having a beer and chicken while they implode. 9/2 Wake pitches 4 shoutout relief innings (3 hits/ o BB in a 10-0 loss) 9/7 Sox score 3 in the first (your statement about falling behind "every game" is looking real truthful, isn't it: 5 out of 6 games Wake started we scored first...so far, but don't let pesky stats get in your way). OK, we're up 3-0 and this happenes: BB, GO, WP, BB, PB, Sac fly. (un earned run). Next inning, up 3-1, Wake let's up a 2-run HR and it's tied in the 2nd. 3rd inning: HBP, WP, 2B, 2 outs, a BB and then a steal of home and an error. The Sox come back and take a 2 run lead in the 4th and later Wake leaves the game with an 8-5 lead. (5 IP  3 H  4 ER). The Sox go on to blow the lead thanks to Wheeler, Bard and Albers letting up 6 runs and we lose 11-10. Wake lets up 4 ERs in 5 IP and the RPs let up 6 ERs in 4 IP, and it's all Wake's fault. I see where the players must be despising Wake by now...subconciously, of course. 9/13 We score first again (6 of 7 now) and win 18-6, Wake gets number 200. Beckett drinks 2 beers in the 8th and 9th. Team morale suffers, and players hate Wake even more after his big win. 9/18 Wake has #200, such a big record that the whole team has now become totally mesmerized and can no longer function as evidenced by Salty's dropped 3rd strike that allows 3 unearned runs to score and TB gets off to a 3-0 lead. Later, another unearned run scores  on a 2B, PB, Sac fly, then another on a 1B, SB, WP, and PB, then another on E5 throwing error. Sox down 6-2 and we could have been up 2-0 or 2-1. Wake gets the loss on 5 IP 2 ER. We lose 8-5. 9/25 Wake's last game. Yanks score first on Bunt Hit (4 feet in front of plate), SB, Bunt hit to 3B, SB & throwing error (E2-unearned run), GO, PB, WP (2nd unearned run). Leter, the Yanks score on a 1B and a 1B to RF (E7 on throw). Wake leaves down 5-1 when it could/should have been 1-1 or 1-2. (We lose 6-2) So, after the 199th win and the big distraction, we scored first in 6 of 9 Wake starts, but the psychological effects of that incredibly important milestone crippled the Sox, drove Beckett, Lester and whoever to drink, and have negative thoughts. It all makes sense now. Tito did not sense this unseen force, and so was fired. Theo ran away, and now we need to blow everything up and start over.  Please, stop the insanity!  
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    are you really arguing that Wake's 7 week quest for his 200th didn't contribute to our collapse in September????? really???  that is pretty funny....I didnt realize however that Wakefield blew so many leads during that time....quite impressive and confidence building to the say the least for the players behind him...
     
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    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    Geo, I know we blew an incredible lead in Spetember. I have been highly critical of certain moves, players,managers, GMs, and coaches over the years. I really try to be objective. The fact is the team took the lead in 6 of the 7 Wake starts as he sought the milestone. You statement was false. Own up to it.

    I know Wake did not help us win after August 13th. However, he really didn't do anything that I would say he caused us to lose over. A 4.81 ERA from your 6/7 starter is actually quite decent. If you look how many of the runs were scored objectively, you'd see, he actually pitched better than his nubers indicated. I understand the "caddy argument". I guess you can blame Wake for Salty's inability to be able to catch him, I just prefer not to see it that way. He throws strikes that can't be caught, but we caught by VMart and others before him, I don't hold it against Wake or Salty.

    I just don't see why you feel the need to single out a few guys and then try to pin almost all the blame on them. Wake was our 6/7th starter. Lackey as our 4/5 starter. Buch was our 3rd starter and was out when we needed him. Dice-K was out 4/5 starter and missed about the whole year. We basically got nothing from our 3-5 slots, and Wake and others were forced to pitch more than they should have. I don't blame Theo for not planning on 3 starters getting hurt, but I do think he could have gotten a more reliable starter than Bedard or gotten 2 lesser pitchers, but reliable ones instead. I was also surprised we made no waiver deal at the end of Aug, when it seemed clear we were slipping and in need of pitching. The late injuries to Bedard and Beckett tipped the scales, and our over-worked pen finally showed the worse for wear. 

    I guess I just see things in a fundemenatally different way than you. I don't always feel the need to assign blame on a single person or small group of people. 

    Wake did not have a great year, but the team did go 12-11 in his starts.
    Beckett could have been a better cheerleader, but I honestly do not think what he and others did in the clubhouse late in games made any difference at all to his (theri) teammates. I do think the conditioning of many players on our team was lacking, not just Josh and Wake. I don't blame Vtek for leading the team to a 42-22 record when he caught. I don't think him being called the "captain" meant he had or should have had any controll over veterans who have been arounf long enough to know what to do. Even if he did try something (and we don't know for sure if he tried anything or not), I doubt it would have changed a thing. We lost a few games at the end that we should have won. We were favorites in those games and ofetn had the lead. We blew it. The team lost. Only a handful of players played as well or better in September than the rest of the year. One could easily blame over 20 players, Tito, Theo, Bogar, and other coaches. It's a team game and the team lost.

    I'm fine with cutting ties to Tito, Theo, VTek, Wake and a few others. I like our 2012 outlook now that we have Melancon & Bailey for next to nothing. I look forward to Beckett and a few others coming back with a hair across their you know what and showing we can be the team from Mid May to mid August for a whole season and into the playoffs.


     
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    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap:
    [QUOTE]I'm not a betting man but if I was I'd bet that Wakefield gets at least an invite to spring training. And he should.
    Posted by Flattiehater[/QUOTE]

    I don't bet anymore, but I'd guess he will make some team's opening day roster. I'm not sure he'll be invited here since we now have only 4 slots left on our staff and 5 guys with no options left (Doubront, Morales, Albers, Atchison, & Bowden), plus Miller (Nonguaranteed deal) and Tazawa (2 options left, but may be the best of the bunch). 

    I guess he could accept a minor league deal here, but like I said, I think he'll make a MLB club by opening day.



     
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    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    Moon, Wake hurt our team, but he is hardly the reason why September happened...but if someone has to be blamed...and i dont think it is fair to pin it on the team as a whole I would say...

    Beckett 50%...forget all the beer and chicken talk for a second - if the guy had simply pitched better, we dont lose by a game...he choked when it mattered most...the fact that he ballooned like CC Sabathia it seemed and couldnt breathe after 80 pitches was a telling sign...I am tempted to give 75% but Francona must take 20% of the blame for being too passive.....

    Lester should at least get 20%...he choked as well and was fat too...but Beckett was having a great season before september, Lester wasnt...

    Im giving Wake's quest for gold 5%...it hurt us no doubt, and Moon was right that a lot of the games had weird twists and turns...I think Papi deserves at least 5% for disappearing....but make no mistake about it, I BLAME BECKETT FOR THE FIASCO...

    I honestly dont think Tek could have prevented anything...but the fact that he did nothing was sad...but someone made a good point about Josh being a knucklehead incapable of being swayed by logic...

    which is why i say trade him....i dont think Bobby V likes him, I know JB doesnt appreciate his color commentary about his slow delivery...so given his age, hefty salary, track record for insubordination/stubborness, why not trade him for some young prospects??? it's not like our farm is stacked with talent these days...


    as far as my statement, i was simply repeating what i had posted from the sons of sam horn...i have to look at it again...but i believe you totally (more than the sons of sam horn...lol)  but that list of stats i pasted from them was pretty amazing about wake w/risp during first two pitches (.400) thats where i got that...but i will look at it again..
     
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    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap : Beckett was the cause of it all?  Talk about being dishonest.  We don't even know what really happened.  We only know about the media created frenzy.  When Pedroia says that he never saw anything improper - and WEEI calls him a liar - that is media created frenzy.  Anything that went on in the clubhouse should have stayed in the clubhouse.  And, you can't blame one person.  I'll stick with Beckett who for years was known for his work ethics.  As for Papelbon, who did a lot for the Sox over the years, I don't see anyone screaming at him for blowing a game, the way he cleaned out his locker, and then got out of Dodge. 
    Posted by carolgolds[/QUOTE]

    Did you hear Pedroia that interview? I did and was so disappointed that Pedroia of all people was totally in cya mode...WEEI didnt invent anything, didnt lie about anything - it was Pedroia who gave that impression with his evasive non answers and unbelievable denials....go back to that day he gave that interview and look at the posts...I said it before this spin/excuse was created about WEEI making him look bad...he was lying...and the info that came out proved it...from his own manager who claimed that the players didnt have his or each others backs...the same thing Pedroia DENIED
     
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    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap:
    [QUOTE]http://xfinity.comcast.net/slideshow/sports-2011biggestbusts/11/ Moon, you have a stat for everything....except you always seem to miss the big ones...like what the sox did in september had never been done before...honestly if you read your posts about last season you would never know it... and this is the M.O. of the many on this board...they can tell you the most detailed stat about player to make their argument, but when asked to assign blame for a debacle like we saw in september... they all of sudden speak in generalities....it was the team...it was everyone, it wasnt any one thing, it was the sun and the moon aligning with saturn that caused the tides in boston to move and thus swell beckett's ankle...
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    We keep telling you how the debacle in September unfolded, but you simply don't understand the numbers.

    Miller 0-2  11.70 ERA
    Bard  0-4  10.64
    Wheeler 0-1 10.68
    Lackey 0-2 9.13
    Weiland 0-2 7.36

    That's 0-11 with an ERA in the double digits.  There really isn't much of a point in debating it if you don't realize that those are horrible numbers.
     
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    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap : We keep telling you how the debacle in September unfolded, but you simply don't understand the numbers. Miller 0-2  11.70 ERA Bard  0-4  10.64 Wheeler 0-1 10.68 Lackey 0-2 9.13 Weiland 0-2 7.36 That's 0-11 with an ERA in the double digits.  There really isn't much of a point in debating it if you don't realize that those are horrible numbers.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    Bard? Wheeler? Weiland? These are the guys you singled out but you left out Wakefield, Lester, and Beckett?  Ay yi yi! I didnt realize Bard was on the naughty list - i mean technically he and Paps did poorly down the stretch but maybe if their arms werent hanging by a thread because of our fatso foursome starters...

    Im pretty sure weiland, wheeler, and Bard werent getting paid 17 million a year like Beckett was...but hey, I guess we can blame those guys as well if it helps make Josh/Beckett look less guilty...i actually think the moon/tides thing makes more sense than this Joey...
     
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    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap : We keep telling you how the debacle in September unfolded, but you simply don't understand the numbers. Miller 0-2  11.70 ERA Bard  0-4  10.64 Wheeler 0-1 10.68 Lackey 0-2 9.13 Weiland 0-2 7.36 That's 0-11 with an ERA in the double digits.  There really isn't much of a point in debating it if you don't realize that those are horrible numbers.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    And they get zero % blame.
    The team went 20-10 in beckett starts, but because he slipped in the mud and hurt his knee, and did not win at the end, it's 50% his fault and 60% a few other guys. 

     think Geo is 50% half mental.

    Wink

    Geo, I didn't blame the whole team. I said a handful (about 5) did not decline in September (not that I am agreeing that September declines or slumps means anyone is automatically to blame for us not making the playoffs).

    I'm not one to pont fingers, but have a look at Sept numbers:
    Miller  0-2  11.70
    Bard   0-4   10.64
    Wheel 0-1   10.38
    Lack    0-2    9.13
    Weil    0-2     7.36
    Albers 0-0    7.20
    Tazawa 0-0  6.00
    Douby   0-0  5.87
    Bowd    0-0  5.73
    Beck     1-2  5.48
    Lest      1-3  5.40
    Bed       1-0  5.25
    Wake    1-2  5.25
    Moral    1-0  4.00
    Paps     0-1   3.72
    Acev    1-1   1.80
    Atch     1-0   1.50

    Ellsb    1.067 OPS
    Scutty 1.019
    AGon      .977
    Aviles    .861
    Pedey    .827
    Papi       .769
    Craw     .734
    Redd     .713
    Lowrie  .562
    Salty     .542
    Youk     .525

    Only 5 players had numbers that were very good. Another 4 players had Ok to good numbers in September. 19 players had poor numbers, but somehow Geo picks Beckett as 50% of the problem (when he was our best pitcher for 5 months), Tito 20%, Lester 20%, Wake 5%, Papi 5%, and Vtek something...everyone else gets a big nada.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap : Bard? Wheeler? Weiland? These are the guys you singled out but you left out Wakefield, Lester, and Beckett?  Ay yi yi! I didnt realize Bard was on the naughty list - i mean technically he and Paps did poorly down the stretch but maybe if their arms werent hanging by a thread because of our fatso foursome starters... Im pretty sure weiland, wheeler, and Bard werent getting paid 17 million a year like Beckett was...but hey, I guess we can blame those guys as well if it helps make Josh/Beckett look less guilty...i actually think the moon/tides thing makes more sense than this Joey...
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    You asked why we collapsed.  I gave you the reason.  We had 5 guys that combined for 0-11 with an ERA of about 10.00.  Beckett, Lester, and Wake went 3-7 with an ERA of about 5.37.

    0-11 is worse than 3-7.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    did Beckett undermine the team with his selfish behavior?

    did beckett disrespect his manager and his team with his clubhouse idiocy?

    did beckett have a history of doing this?

    did beckett abandon his conditioning and did that lead to his injury?

    did beckett prich well the final month?

    is their any pitcher on the team who gets paid more than beckett to be the "ace"?

    I know Moon these are not sexy stats that you can impress people with like CERA and UZR, but if you cant honestly answer these and come to a conclusion that might point to Beckett blowing it for our team in 2011, then I suggest you find a new hobby - because your stat fixation is depriving your brain of much needed common sense....

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonsportsfan228. Show bostonsportsfan228's posts

    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    Virtually any argument to get rid of Beckett because of his September would make it necessary to get rid of the whole staff........anything less is just straight up hatin
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    beckett is hated, by a lot of people...you dont have to like him - but i do expect him to come to camp prepared, in shape, and supportive of his teammates...his 15 wins a season isnt worth what he is getting paid and the bad habits he brought to our team...Lester was a pretty good pitcher before he adopted Beckett's diet and attitude...
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    Will either Moon or Georom turn down the thermostat and turn off the lights when you are done. We are trying to save BDC room expenses here. Thank You.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    did Beckett undermine the team with his selfish behavior?

    He was sharing the beer and chicken with others, so no, he was trying to build team morale.

    did beckett disrespect his manager and his team with his clubhouse idiocy?

    Tito didn't know, so no. Did Papi disrespect Tito (and Theo) by staying fat, not running out groundballs, the press conference, crying over Manny, etc...? 

    did beckett have a history of doing this?

    So, I hear, but he also has a history of being a WS hero.

    did beckett abandon his conditioning and did that lead to his injury?

    No, he's been fat since day one in Florida.

    did beckett prich well the final month?

    No, but I'd like to see you show why he was 50% of the problem. He wasn't even 50% of the September problem.

    is their any pitcher on the team who gets paid more than beckett to be the "ace"?

    No, because Lester was extended before the big FA money was available. Why not look at $ per win, and you'll see others more worthy of your wrath.

    I know Moon these are not sexy stats that you can impress people with like CERA and UZR, but if you cant honestly answer these and come to a conclusion that might point to Beckett blowing it for our team in 2011, then I suggest you find a new hobby - because your stat fixation is depriving your brain of much needed common sense....

    Beckett didn't help in September, no, but last I checked, September is but 1/6th of the season, not to mention there were 19 other players that did poorly in September. Forget the sexy stats, take off your blinders, and admit that many players had a hand in our horrible September. To put 50% of the blame on our best 2011 starting pitcher just because he was one of 19 players that had a tough September is just plain wrong. (Most of the other 18 players weren't hurt either.)

    Did Lackey, Weiland, Miller, and Bard have anything to do with the collapse or did they stink up the place because they were thinking of Josh drinking beer and eating chicken?

    Did Papi undermine team morale and management with his attitude and actions?

    Did AGon undermine team morale by complaining about nonsense sceduling issues?

    Did Salty not totally breakdown both offensively and defensively even sooner than September?

    Did Youk cause his own injury?

    Did Crawford make more than any other Of'er on the team? Did he play like the ace of the OF?

    Did Reddick come on strong when we needed him?

    Did Paps get that last out?

    Did Bedard come through? Why wasn't he better conditioned?

    Albers? 

    Try and honestly answer these questions and then tell tell us all again why Josh deserves 50% of the blame.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    not bad questions Moon - I think i assigned papi 5% but it could be more, maybe 10%...but you are just being silly with most of the questions....Beckett has a serious history of being insubordinate, being out of shape, being inconsistent, yet he is paid like an ace....last time i checked - alot of the WS2007 heroes have left the building...maybe it is time for Beckett to move on?

    i guess you simply refuse to believe that Beckett's behavior had anything to do with our September meltdown...I beg to differ...
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap:
    [QUOTE]did Beckett undermine the team with his selfish behavior? He was sharing the beer and chicken with others, so no, he was trying to build team morale. did beckett disrespect his manager and his team with his clubhouse idiocy? Tito didn't know, so no. Did Papi disrespect Tito (and Theo) by staying fat, not running out groundballs, the press conference, crying over Manny, etc...?  did beckett have a history of doing this? So, I hear, but he also has a history of being a WS hero. did beckett abandon his conditioning and did that lead to his injury? No, he's been fat since day one in Florida. did beckett prich well the final month? No, but I'd like to see you show why he was 50% of the problem. He wasn't even 50% of the September problem. is their any pitcher on the team who gets paid more than beckett to be the "ace"? No, because Lester was extended before the big FA money was available. Why not look at $ per win, and you'll see others more worthy of your wrath. I know Moon these are not sexy stats that you can impress people with like CERA and UZR, but if you cant honestly answer these and come to a conclusion that might point to Beckett blowing it for our team in 2011, then I suggest you find a new hobby - because your stat fixation is depriving your brain of much needed common sense.... Beckett didn't help in September, no, but last I checked, September is but 1/6th of the season, not to mention there were 19 other players that did poorly in September. Forget the sexy stats, take off your blinders, and admit that many players had a hand in our horrible September. To put 50% of the blame on our best 2011 starting pitcher just because he was one of 19 players that had a tough September is just plain wrong. (Most of the other 18 players weren't hurt either.) Did Lackey, Weiland, Miller, and Bard have anything to do with the collapse or did they stink up the place because they were thinking of Josh drinking beer and eating chicken? Did Papi undermine team morale and management with his attitude and actions? Did AGon undermine team morale by complaining about nonsense sceduling issues? Did Salty not totally breakdown both offensively and defensively even sooner than September? Did Youk cause his own injury? Did Crawford make more than any other Of'er on the team? Did he play like the ace of the OF? Did Reddick come on strong when we needed him? Did Paps get that last out? Did Bedard come through? Why wasn't he better conditioned? Albers?  Try and honestly answer these questions and then tell tell us all again why Josh deserves 50% of the blame.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    That is an excellent post!!!!!  We are the real truely Red Sox fans!!!

    Go Sox!!!
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    note to forum:  moonslave59 would have defended Zimmer to the wire, defended Shiraldi to the bitter end, and likely any and every single player on the team so long as they wear the Sox uni. Observations and common sense out the window, beaten back by hollow stats like a sweet era or a catchers contribution to a no-hitter.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    FO doing things right. 2012 weak link is Beckett. What is this self-absorbed dude gonna do?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from carolgolds. Show carolgolds's posts

    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap : Did you hear Pedroia that interview? I did and was so disappointed that Pedroia of all people was totally in cya mode...WEEI didnt invent anything, didnt lie about anything - it was Pedroia who gave that impression with his evasive non answers and unbelievable denials....go back to that day he gave that interview and look at the posts...I said it before this spin/excuse was created about WEEI making him look bad...he was lying...and the info that came out proved it...from his own manager who claimed that the players didnt have his or each others backs...the same thing Pedroia DENIED
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    Actually, WEEI called Pedroia a liar when they were interviewing John Henry on the day he stopped by - and John Henry told them that they obviously did not know Pedroia.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Beckett is toast...say your good-byes asap

    seriously, we are busting at the salary cap seams and we have an overpaid, overweight, ingratre of a pitcher who was overpaid by a guy who split town...this guy was the number #1 reason why the team collapsed - he was the ringleader of this shameless circus and we are wondering who we can sign on the cheap so that we can keep this idiot????

    trade him for anyone with a decent arm and be done with him...My Garza/prospect trade for Theo and his golden goose I guess makes too much sense...I wonder if Moon would put his great stat knowledge to work figuring out who we could sign if we saved 8 million a year for the next three years and had Garza in the rotation....

    Burrito, we have fought the good fight for over three years telling the enablers that our manager was incompetent, and our captain a fraud, and wake was useless...we told them that Cameron in CF was vile...even when Cameron was released we had to endure all those "Thank you Cameron for being such a classy guy" threads....it is funny how after he was released again a few months later for assaulting a flight attendent that no one fessed up that they were wrong...

    Beckett is history...Ben doesnt like him, Bobby V hates him, Bobby made an effort to support Papi, I dont see anyone in the organization defending Beckett for what he did to his beloved manager and teammates when the playoffs were on the line...

    as always...
     

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