Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from fir.eballer58. Show fir.eballer58's posts

    Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?


    Did Francona leave him in too long? I say yes. Beckett is healthy but remember he has a history of being injured. This is only April. Wouldn’t it be prudent not to start running up the pitch count so early in the year. This is a marathon. We want a healthy Beckett in October. The 125 pitches was one fewer than his career high of 126, which came when he was with the Marlins in 2004. In fact this was only the ninth time in his career he has thrown 120 or more pitches in a regular season game, fourth time since coming to the Red Sox before the 2006 season. Furthermore, since Terry Francona became manager of the Red Sox, only four pitchers have thrown more pitches in a game than Beckett did Thursday night: Lester threw 130 in his no-hitter against the Royals on May 19, 2008; Matsuzaka threw 126 and 129 in starts 17 days apart in 2007, and 39-year-old Schilling threw 133 on April 25, 2006 in Cleveland. Francona should have pulled Beckett after he completed the seventh inning having thrown 107 pitches. Francona should stick to his customary practice and not overextend his starting pitching staff.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from REDSOX-11. Show REDSOX-11's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long Do you have a problem with this?

    I have a problem with just about everything he does. I really think he is totally lost once the game starts.


    In Response to Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long Do you have a problem with this?:
    [QUOTE]Did Francona leave him in too long? I say yes. Beckett is healthy but remember he has a history of being injured. This is only April. Wouldn’t it be prudent not to start running up the pitch count so early in the year. This is a marathon. We want a healthy Beckett in October. The 125 pitches was one fewer than his career high of 126, which came when he was with the Marlins in 2004. In fact this was only the ninth time in his career he has thrown 120 or more pitches in a regular season game, fourth time since coming to the Red Sox before the 2006 season. Furthermore, since Terry Francona became manager of the Red Sox, only four pitchers have thrown more pitches in a game than Beckett did Thursday night: Lester threw 130 in his no-hitter against the Royals on May 19, 2008; Matsuzaka threw 126 and 129 in starts 17 days apart in 2007, and 39-year-old Schilling threw 133 on April 25, 2006 in Cleveland. Francona should have pulled Beckett after he completed the seventh inning having thrown 107 pitches. Francona should stick to his customary practice and not overextend his starting pitching staff.
    Posted by fir.eballer58[/QUOTE]
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from maddog2020. Show maddog2020's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    Do you have to complain about everything - if he took him out and bard or jenks got hit - you would be complaing about taking him out to early.


     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from smiley-beni-2817. Show smiley-beni-2817's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    In Response to Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?:

    [QUOTE]Did Francona leave him in too long? I say yes. Beckett is healthy but remember he has a history of being injured. This is only April. Wouldn’t it be prudent not to start running up the pitch count so early in the year. This is a marathon. We want a healthy Beckett in October. The 125 pitches was one fewer than his career high of 126, which came when he was with the Marlins in 2004. In fact this was only the ninth time in his career he has thrown 120 or more pitches in a regular season game, fourth time since coming to the Red Sox before the 2006 season. Furthermore, since Terry Francona became manager of the Red Sox, only four pitchers have thrown more pitches in a game than Beckett did Thursday night: Lester threw 130 in his no-hitter against the Royals on May 19, 2008; Matsuzaka threw 126 and 129 in starts 17 days apart in 2007, and 39-year-old Schilling threw 133 on April 25, 2006 in Cleveland. Francona should have pulled Beckett after he completed the seventh inning having thrown 107 pitches. Francona should stick to his customary practice and not overextend his starting pitching staff.Posted by fir.eballer58[/QUOTE]

    Good Post!

    I say yes. But let`s hope that Beckett doesn`t have a health issue

    in the near future. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from REDSOX-11. Show REDSOX-11's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    How bout this: he takes out another starter who has only thrown 90 pitches and leaves another in too long. He usually leaves the relievers in until the game is close or LOST, much like his style of coaching.

    In Response to Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?:
    [QUOTE]Do you have to complain about everything - if he took him out and bard or jenks got hit - you would be complaing about taking him out to early.
    Posted by maddog2020[/QUOTE]
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from markes8336. Show markes8336's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    I have no problem at all with his decision. Beckett had excellent command, even in his last inning. If Beckett and Tek thought he was good to go, it wasn't a big decision. If the rotation holds as is, he won't need to pitch again until next Wednesday. I wouldn't want to see it become the norm, but for one start, I don't see an issue.
    But then, I don't hate Tito...
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from cbfrogger. Show cbfrogger's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    In Response to Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?:
    [QUOTE]How bout this: he takes out another starter who has only thrown 90 pitches and leaves another in too long. He usually leaves the relievers in until the game is close or LOST, much like his style of coaching. In Response to Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this? :
    Posted by REDSOX-11[/QUOTE]

    Exactly!! He is wrong no matter what he does.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long Do you have a problem with this?

    In Response to Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long Do you have a problem with this?:
    [QUOTE]I have a problem with just about everything he does. I really think he is totally lost once the game starts. In Response to Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long Do you have a problem with this? :
    Posted by REDSOX-11[/QUOTE]

    And that just about sums it up, folks.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    I wish my boss had a "problem" with leaving me in too long.

    By my estimations, I should be sent home around 2:00 P.M. on Thursday afternoon....with the same pay.

    Wouldn't life be grand if our jobs were like pro athletes jobs.

    The reason this country is not speaking German today is because many Americans worked long hours and sacrificed , does anybody have a Hall of Fame for these people?

    I am sick to death of this ridiculous concern over young, overpaid , healthy young men possibly "hurting" themselves throwing a freaking baseball 10 or 20 more times than what some "expert" considers healthy for them. Strasbourg was babied to the extreme in Washington last year and the kid still ruined his arm. It's not the number of pitches , it's that these guys are trying to throw the fastball 106 miles per hour.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from markes8336. Show markes8336's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long Do you have a problem with this?

    In Response to Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long Do you have a problem with this?:
    [QUOTE]I have a problem with just about everything he does. I really think he is totally lost once the game starts. In Response to Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long Do you have a problem with this? :
    Posted by REDSOX-11[/QUOTE]

    By your own definition then, he'd be wrong whether he took him out or left him in. Good baseball sense there, man...
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    Did Francona leave him in too long? I say yes. Beckett is healthy but remember he has a history of being injured

    What is history of being injured?  Prior to last year's injury, he's averaged over 30 starts per year in the previous 5 years.

    IRT your Q, close enough.  Too much relies on dugout talk.  It's impossible for the most knowledgeable fan to know how Beckett feels.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    He's had a history of blisters.

    But I think maybe he gets too much sun sometimes.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    In Response to Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?:
    [QUOTE]Did Francona leave him in too long? I say yes. Beckett is healthy but remember he has a history of being injure d What is history of being injured?  Prior to last year's injury, he's averaged over 30 starts per year in the previous 5 years. IRT your Q, close enough.  Too much relies on dugout talk.  It's impossible for the most knowledgeable fan to know how Beckett feels.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]Beckett's single biggest health issue in his career has been blisters, more of an issue in the hot humid weather.

    Yeah it was a risk. OTOH it is case where hindsight is 20-20 in Terry's favor. keep in mind it was ONE game and the RS face another very tough pitching match-up tonight in Haren. Francona still ended up using Bard, Jenks and Papelbon in consecutive games.

    I am sure his hope was to be able to keep his powder dry on one or two of those pitchers for tonight. Beckett does not give him the extra inning chance are Francona extends one of the three to multiple innings (with potentially negative results) or has to give the ball to his lesser relievers on the road in extra innings (sudden death). 

    The Oakland A's at the start of the 2000's were seen as the leaders in understanding pitch count, its effect on starters and managing it. And they would on occasions do exactly what Tito did last night and extend a starter 20-30 pitches over the pitch count total based on how the pitcher was throwing that night, how few pitches were made under stress and from the stretch and the game situation.

    Their tactic was to reduce the pitch count in the following game into the high 80's low 90's. This tactic was nicknamed "prehab".

    Personally I am quite pleased that the RS won a tough, well played game in extra innings on the road against a team that was 8-2 in its last 10 coming into last night. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long Do you have a problem with this?

    In Response to Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long Do you have a problem with this?:
    [QUOTE]I have a problem with just about everything he does. I really think he is totally lost once the game starts. In Response to Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long Do you have a problem with this? :
    Posted by REDSOX-11[/QUOTE]

    This response is unbelievable.  You are basically saying that if he removed him after 100 pitches, you'd have a problem.  125 pitches, you have a problem.  There is basically nothing that you would not have a problem with.  This one post from you shows everyone, even those who don't like Tito, that you have no credibility.  You can't be this dim...can you?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    I have no problem with 125 pitches. 120 pitches, give or take, is probably the high level most mananagers and pitching coaches are comfortable with. You'll never see a pitcher throw 150, 170 pitches like pitchers used to.

    Beckett's mechanics were sound, he wasn't struggling or laboring so letting him go to the upper limit was fine. I thought Lackey was taken out an inning too early the other night, but I trust the reasons for it.

    And to Z:

    Piayers are investments nowadays. It ahs nothing to do with babying them or pitchers not wanting to work. It has to do with protecting investments. Of course, pitchers can get hurt any time, but take a look at baseball history. You see numerous pitchers who had a couple of great seasons only to disappear at a young age. Then you look at IP and it's hard not to think they simply were mishandled and threw their arms out.

    That's not being smart. If you owned a business and had a piece of machinary in which you invested millions of dollars, I would think you would treat that machinery in a way to get maximum value out.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    In Response to Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?:
    [QUOTE]I have no problem with 125 pitches. 120 pitches, give or take, is probably the high level most mananagers and pitching coaches are comfortable with. You'll never see a pitcher throw 150, 170 pitches like pitchers used to. Beckett's mechanics were sound, he wasn't struggling or laboring so letting him go to the upper limit was fine. I thought Lackey was taken out an inning too early the other night, but I trust the reasons for it. And to Z: Piayers are investments nowadays. It ahs nothing to do with babying them or pitchers not wanting to work. It has to do with protecting investments. Of course, pitchers can get hurt any time, but take a look at baseball history. You see numerous pitchers who had a couple of great seasons only to disappear at a young age. Then you look at IP and it's hard not to think they simply were mishandled and threw their arms out. That's not being smart. If you owned a business and had a piece of machinary in which you invested millions of dollars, I would think you would treat that machinery in a way to get maximum value out.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]May I add to this fine take on the pitch counts popularity having its footing in investment protection, that we are seeing so many more talented young pitchers in the game today because pitch count is being acknowledged and managed from youth baseball - to developmental leagues- to MLB.

    Starting pitchers by nature aren't happy about ever giving up the ball IMO.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    Good posts Roy and Katz.  Also, Beckett could go to 125 based on the fact that he had many really easy innings last night.  He did not labor through the 125 at a high stress level.  125 with runners all over the bases is a whole lot different than last night's vibe for Josh.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    I much prefer leaving a pitcher in a game that's close, if the pitcher is still throwing well and if he and the catcher feel he's still strong. If he's removed, you're replacing a known factor with an unknown factor. It's fixing something that isn't broken. We know Beckett was and has been dominating lately. Until a reliever actually throws some pitches, we really don't know if he's going to be effective or not. I for one would have been upset if he was removed sooner. Then again, I'm an opponent of pitch counts.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from CORRADJ. Show CORRADJ's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    Throwing 120 pitches a start used to be routine not that long ago. I remember a televised game that Pedro pitched where they showed his BAA up to 105 pitches and then 105+, the point being that he routinely exceeded 105 pitches. Beckett has a pitcher's build - tall, thick and strong. Also, he did not have any high stress innings, which is a big factor in determining a proper pitch count. The Angels could not hit him last night - only two hits, one being a chopper off the plate. I applaud the decision.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxlaxer12. Show redsoxlaxer12's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long Do you have a problem with this?

    In Response to Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long Do you have a problem with this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long Do you have a problem with this? : This response is unbelievable.  You are basically saying that if he removed him after 100 pitches, you'd have a problem.  125 pitches, you have a problem.  There is basically nothing that you would not have a problem with.  This one post from you shows everyone, even those who don't like Tito, that you have no credibility.  You can't be this dim...can you?
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]
    Solid statement
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    No and No
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    Funny that Fireballer is not around to defend his remarks.

    Seriously, is there a point in starting a debate if you don't feel like debating?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from bigfoot14b. Show bigfoot14b's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    Who cares?  

    The guy is getting paid $12 million per year.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    joe, I'm trying to figure out why he posted that on a board that has routinely begged for a starting pitcher to actually throw 8 innings. I'd love to see more of this type of "out of the box" thinking by the friendly Tito. I insist the pen for the sox has always hit the skids later in the season due to overwork, and many times it's because Tito would rather tax his relievers with too many pitches, too many appearances, and coddle his overpriced starting pitching. It should be the other way around.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?

    In Response to Re: Beckett threw 125 pitches last night; Did Francona leave him in too long? Do you have a problem with this?:
    [QUOTE]joe, I'm trying to figure out why he posted that on a board that has routinely begged for a starting pitcher to actually throw 8 innings. I'd love to see more of this type of "out of the box" thinking by the friendly Tito. I insist the pen for the sox has always hit the skids later in the season due to overwork, and many times it's because Tito would rather tax his relievers with too many pitches, too many appearances, and coddle his overpriced starting pitching. It should be the other way around.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    I don't know if I completely agree with this. I do think that there are games where the starters could be pushed a bit more, although I do believe as the season goes on, Francona does let them go a bit longer. On the other hand, I do think one of Francona's strengths is managing the season so he doesn't overwork starters or relievers, although I do think it's inevitable that at times a reliever (Bard last year) might get overworked.

    There's not easy answer when it comes to using the bullpen. Guys today are used to having roles -- 7th inning guy, 8th inning guy, closer, lefty specialist, etc. -- so like it or not, we're not going back to the 1970s when a Rollie Fingers would pitch three innings to get the save or a Mike Marshall would pitch 200 innings in relief.

    Managers today want to keep guys in their roles, use them on a consistent basis so they don't sit too long but also not overuse them.

     

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