Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

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    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth? : The salient part is they cited one "major league source". Was that you Steven? Maybe it was the clubhouse guy in Tampa or Bowden who appears to have an opinion about everything. What does an unnamed "major league source" prove?
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    Play on words, and no, that wasn't me.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?": If a player is traded in the last year of his contract the trading team is unable to secure any picks as of the new CBA. So after this year, Ellsbury is traded and the team getting him will gat a partial season and risk him walking. Do you think that is value for the Sox trading partner? Coke had a 1.454 whip and pitched at replacement level. I don't think the Phil's have the dollars to take on another contract that Ellsbury will command I think any team, including the Sox haveEllsbury for one year, and then they have a 2nd panic year.
    Posted by rkarp[/QUOTE]

    Why wouldn't a big market not want Ellsbury right now, with 2 years left in his contract? If we didn't have him we would want him. We just went out of our way to trade for Adrian Gonzalez when he had 1 year left and gave up 3 premium prospects.

    If a team traded for Ellsbury right now they would get 2 years of possibly near MVP performance plus the 2 picks when he leaves, if he maintains his performance level. And to me, Fenway does not help Ellsbury at all. It's not like the wall is helping him at all. He's hit it maybe 5 times in his life in the air. He also hits a lot of balls to short LF which hurts him in Fenway. 

    Ellsbury is a tremendous value still. The only reason to trade him is that he is not optimized for Fenway. And that is probably not reason enough. Do you guys want to win or not?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth? : Her might be right.  Lavarnway might be better than Montero.  Even the people who rank and judge prospects for a living will admit they are not always correct. Or to put it another way - what do Brad Wilkerson, Jack Cust, Corey Patterson, Jon Rauch, Ryan Anderson, Drew Henson, Hee Seop Choi, Matt Belisle, Felipe Lopez, JR House, Joe Borchard, Bud Smith, Joe Crede, Austin Kearns, Alfonso Soriano, Wilson Betemit, Juan Cruz, Antonio Perez,  Jerome Williams, and Sean Burroughs have in common?  All of them were among the 41 players baseballamerica.com had ranked ahead of Albert Pujols...
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    Of course he may be right; look at Mike Piazza; and a bat boy nobody's paying attention to could be the next TW. However, we're talking about current assessment; isn't that why Montero netted Pineda? And who knows how good Pineda shall be? He doesn't appear to be a lock by any stretch.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    To me, after all considerations are weighed, I don't get why Lavarnway isn't rated higher as a prospect. He seems to warrant it. I can explain the phenomena only with psychological speculations, which of course are really pushing the limits of reasonable discussion. The guy appears to have a better chance to stick at catcher than Montero and he outhit him in the same league ( the International League ) by a wide margin in 2011. And he isn't even in the top 100 prospects? Age is such a huge factor in evaluating players but even considering that it surprises me.

    Fangraphs did an evaluation of top catching prospects over the past 15 years or so and the only ones who hit over 30 HR in that time ( at the AA and AAA level or just at AAA ) were Lavarnway, Napoli ( in AA ball in the Texas League ), Arencibia ( in the PCL ) and a guy most of us have never heard of back around 1999 if I remember correctly. Lavarnway had better numbers in a tougher hitting league than either of the above 2 players and both of them hit over 20 HR in the majors last year.  
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth? : Of course he may be right; look at Mike Piazza; and a bat boy nobody's paying attention to could be the next TW. However, we're talking about current assessment; isn't that why Montero netted Pineda? And who knows how good Pineda shall be? He doesn't appear to be a lock by any stretch.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]
    I do agree that Pineda is not a lock at all but considering how much value a young pitcher is worth of Pineda's profile it is a lot of trade value. And I do not question that Montero is rated much higher by a wide consensus of scouts and analysts. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    Glad Lava's under-rated if it kept him from being traded to Seatlle.  I want to keep that guy.

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]To me, after all considerations are weighed, I don't get why Lavarnway isn't rated higher as a prospect. He seems to warrant it. I can explain the phenomena only with psychological speculations, which of course are really pushing the limits of reasonable discussion. The guy appears to have a better chance to stick at catcher than Montero and he outhit him in the same league ( the International League ) by a wide margin in 2011. And he isn't even in the top 100 prospects? Age is such a huge factor in evaluating players but even considering that it surprises me. Fangraphs did an evaluation of top catching prospects over the past 15 years or so and the only ones who hit over 30 HR in that time ( at the AA and AAA level or just at AAA ) were Lavarnway, Napoli ( in AA ball in the Texas League ), Arencibia ( in the PCL ) and a guy most of us have never heard of back around 1999 if I remember correctly. Lavarnway had better numbers in a tougher hitting league than either of the above 2 players and both of them hit over 20 HR in the majors last year.  
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth? :   More people should pay attention to what Boomer says here...the belief that a guy will hit .370 in the minors and then tank while possible , isn't plausible . The minors will give you a good reflection of what type of player you have. Here are the Minor and MLB batting averages for the starters; CC   .294/.293 Pedroia .307/.305 AGon   .296/.293 Sweeney .291/.283 Youk    .298/.289 Ells      .316/.301 Papi     .310/.283 Scut    .290/.270 Salty    .271/.244   Every player batted higher in the minors...but look at OPS, which you would think changes as the players get bigger and fill out... CC     .735/773 Pedroia .844/ .837 AGon   .813/.889 Sweeney .758/ .720 Youk    .882/.883 Ells     .820/ .807 Papi    .916/.922 Scut   .803/ 727 Salty  .823/ .712  Only CC, AGon,Papi and Youk (by 1 point!) muscled up, It's surprising that Pedroia (an MVP!) was more offensive in the minors, given Ellsbury's youth he'll likely still improve over his minor league production, and as for Big Papi. his future was predicted by his past...Lavarnway will rake, it's in the numbers.
    Posted by YOUKILLUS20[/QUOTE]

    Great work Youk!
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    I agree with Boom, Lavarnway should be our top rated prospect.  The Middlebrooks craze has little basis. Ranaudo may not even be our best pitching prospect right now. I also like Iggy and find it hard to believe we chose to spend about $20M to go with Papi & Scutty over Lava and Iggy/Aviles/Punto. The step down (if any) could easily be wiped out by what we could have gotten for $20M.

    Certainly entertaining the idea of trading Ells makes sense.Trading him this year rather than next makes sense in terms of the value the 2 picks emans to the team getting Jacoby and the 2 years vs 1 year issue. I suppose we could wait until July. Teams will be more depsperate, and we'll have a better idea if we are in the running for a ring or not by then. Can anybody see a Sox firesale this July? (Ellsbury, Scutaro, Dice-K, Papi, Shoppach, Jenks, and maybe even Youk)
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth? : The salient part is they cited one "major league source". Was that you Steven? Maybe it was the clubhouse guy in Tampa or Bowden who appears to have an opinion about everything. What does an unnamed "major league source" prove?
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    Why is it some of you guys have this desperate need to hear that Lavarnway is on par with Montero (who's no longer a Yankee)?  When the general consensus around baseball is that he is not as good.  Nobody is saying Lavarnway is trash but by scouts around baseball they generally see Montero as being a better hitter....whats the big deal?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    No big deal Camel, no desperate need, some of us simply believe Lava under-rated and not unreasonably consider him at least on a par with Montero, but time will tell; self-styled experts are no more expert, it turns out, than any other well-informed fan or observer, and are just as often proven wrong as right.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from YOUKILLUS20. Show YOUKILLUS20's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth? : Great work Youk!
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

     Hope it adds weight to your resume as the down-on-the-farm guy. Sorry you were left off the ballot, must have been a full Moon that night! Speaking of the Professor, can you convince him to run Firefox?? Lack of a respond button makes his rebuttals tough to figure out.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]No big deal Camel, no desperate need, some of us simply believe Lava under-rated and not unreasonably consider him at least on a par with Montero, but time will tell; self-styled experts are no more expert, it turns out, than any other well-informed fan or observer, and are just as often proven wrong as right.
    Posted by soxnewmex[/QUOTE]

    A lot of these major league teams should just save themselves some money and fire their scouts and come here to where the experts are.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth? :  Hope it adds weight to your resume as the down-on-the-farm guy. Sorry you were left off the ballot, must have been a full Moon that night! Speaking of the Professor, can you convince him to run Firefox?? Lack of a respond button makes his rebuttals tough to figure out.
    Posted by YOUKILLUS20[/QUOTE]

    Google Chrome is another option and the OS ( operating system ) is external and free.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]Montero's wRC+ from his last 2 years in AAA: 132 120 Montero did put up a 165 in his 69 PA at the end of last year though and he is younger.  I'm not saying Lavarnway is as good a prospect as the younger Montero but it's a lot closer than most people think IMO. It's not like Montero is any more likely to stick at catcher. If anything, Lavarnway has a better chance of sticking defensively IMO.  I know it's unconventional but I'd rather have 6 years of control right now of Lavarnway than I would Montero. No doubt Montero should be a huge bat but there is reason to think that Lavarnway will put up similar WAR values going forward. I like Lavarnway's trend lines and his demonstrated ability to adjust to every level efficiently. He even appears to be improving as he moves up each level. Something tells me most of you will disagree!
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    It appears that the Yanks agree with you since they swapped Montero for a starter rather than hang onto him. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth? : It appears that the Yanks agree with you since they swapped Montero for a starter rather than hang onto him. 
    Posted by traven[/QUOTE]

    Couldn't have had anything to do with their need for starting pitching nor the potential of the pitcher they landed.
     
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    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    honestly at this point i would say lavarnway is pretty much on par with montero. He certainly has displayed more power than montero as montero has never come closer to hitting 32 homers in the minors. yes montero hit for a better average. But on other thing u have to keep in mind is these players defensive abilities being that are catchers. Lavarnway has a really good arm and could very well stick behind the plate. Montero on the other hand is much more likely to move to 1B or DH. Montero has thrown out 21% of base stealers in his minor league career and lavarnway has thrown out 32 %. 
     
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    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]honestly at this point i would say lavarnway is pretty much on par with montero. He certainly has displayed more power than montero as montero has never come closer to hitting 32 homers in the minors. yes montero hit for a better average. But on other thing u have to keep in mind is these players defensive abilities being that are catchers. Lavarnway has a really good arm and could very well stick behind the plate. Montero on the other hand is much more likely to move to 1B or DH. Montero has thrown out 21% of base stealers in his minor league career and lavarnway has thrown out 32 %. 
    Posted by redsoxpride34[/QUOTE]

    Who hit better in the majors last year?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    I fully expect the Red Sox to give Ryan Lavarnway a well-deserved opportunity to succeed (or not) at the MLB level.

    However, widely held perceptions would prevent Lavarnway from bringing back as much as Jesus Montero would in a trade. In the end, what counts is the potential trade partner's assessment of Lavarnway's worth.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]I fully expect the Red Sox to give Ryan Lavarnway a well-deserved opportunity to succeed (or not) at the MLB level. However, widely held perceptions would prevent Lavarnway from bringing back as much as Jesus Montero would in a trade. In the end, what counts is the potential trade partner's assessment of Lavarnway's worth.
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    This is a good non-biased post.  What you said is 100 percent true, he currently does not have the value that Montero does and the Sox will give him a well-deserved opportunity to play as he appears to have potential and may be a really nice player.
     
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    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth? : A lot of these major league teams should just save themselves some money and fire their scouts and come here to where the experts are.

    Posted by Camelwalk[/QUOTE]

    Please edit this, make corrections to it in red and feel free to add to it based on your many hours that you spent on the road last year looking through binoculars and charting pitches.

    Scouting Report
    : High baseball IQ with solid catcher's frame. Average-to-slightly above-average contact potential and possesses above-average plate discipline. Slightly closed, crouched stance. Attacks mistake pitches, especially ones out and over the plate. Upper cut swing that produces a bit too much topspin. Solid-average power projection despite plus raw power. Can drive the ball to all fields and uses lower body well in his swing. Likes to get arms extended, which leads to some struggles on the inside third. Well below-average speed. Rough overall catching skills. Limited range behind the dish and slow reactions. Tends to stab at offerings, and his catching hand drifts when framing pitches. Average blocking skills, he needs to improve how he controls balls bouncing out in front of him and the fluidity of his footwork. Has made ample strides with his catch-and-release mechanics since joining the organization. Hard worker dedicated to honing craft. Despite improvements, catching skills are still limited. Will need to increase defensive versatility. Projects more as a DH/part-time catcher/bat off the bench at the major league level.


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth? : Please edit this, make corrections to it in red and feel free to add to it based on your many hours that you spent on the road last year looking through binoculars and charting pitches. Scouting Report : High baseball IQ with solid catcher's frame. Average-to-slightly above-average contact potential and possesses above-average plate discipline. Slightly closed, crouched stance. Attacks mistake pitches, especially ones out and over the plate. Upper cut swing that produces a bit too much topspin. Solid-average power projection despite plus raw power. Can drive the ball to all fields and uses lower body well in his swing. Likes to get arms extended, which leads to some struggles on the inside third. Well below-average speed. Rough overall catching skills. Limited range behind the dish and slow reactions. Tends to stab at offerings, and his catching hand drifts when framing pitches. Average blocking skills, he needs to improve how he controls balls bouncing out in front of him and the fluidity of his footwork. Has made ample strides with his catch-and-release mechanics since joining the organization. Hard worker dedicated to honing craft. Despite improvements, catching skills are still limited. Will need to increase defensive versatility. Projects more as a DH/part-time catcher/bat off the bench at the major league level.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    No, no scouting reports mean nothing as the true experts are on this forum.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth? : No, no scouting reports mean nothing as the true experts are on this forum.
    Posted by Camelwalk[/QUOTE]
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth? :
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    Some forum members feel that scouting reports are overrated, so I'm just following their lead. 

    I was being sarcastic in regard to scouting reports not being important and that the experts were here on this forum.  Read all the relevant posts and you would see that.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    GA all..question...while following this Montero/Lavarnway discussion/debate i was just wondering while the Sox(presumably) along with you guys might want to see Lava as a catcher, while most seem to call for a postion change for Montero, where does Montero slot(short term first) for the M's? and what is the M's current catching situation look like?...admittedly i don't know much about Lavarnway to make a judgement, so i gladly defer to you guys with more insight....  
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?

    In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Begs the question what is Lavarnway worth? : Some forum members feel that scouting reports are overrated, so I'm just following their lead.  I was being sarcastic in regard to scouting reports not being important and that the experts were here on this forum.  Read all the relevant posts and you would see that.
    Posted by Camelwalk[/QUOTE]

    Sure. When in trouble resort to:

    I was doing "tongue-in-cheek"
    Was being sarcastic
    Was just fooling

    The truth is that you are :
    1.) Headstrong or
    2.) Ignorant or
    3.) Trolling
     
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