Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from raider3524. Show raider3524's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    In response to baddad's comment:

     lets keep it simple ben is an idiot and his moves were idiotic   wake up people




    he's smarter than you...you need to wake up dummy.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    D. Ross  Value Grade D  Fit Grade B-    yup

    Shane Value Grade F  Fit Grade C    not sure he will hit enough to play RF, or he will be fit enough to play CF in years 2 and 3.  Fit grade D

    Dumpster Value Grade F  Fit Grade C    Value C   Fit grade B  Innings needed considering Lackey, Buch,.....   One note of caution, I have read that Dempster throws a lot of sliders.  Some worry his elbow may finally give way.

    Napoli Value Grade C-  Fit Grade B   Three years and his defense at 1B are going to be problems

    S. Drew Value Grade F double minus Fit Grade D   Hope for pipe dream 5 WAR 2010 and Sox get a pick

    Gomes Value Grade C- Fit Grade B-  Value F  $5M for 35% of games with bad D.

    Total Value Grade F    Fit Grade C   yup




     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    If his plan was to buy time for the prospects, his signings should have been structured so that when the prospects are ready, the signed players we still have are still in their prime, and not 80+.



    Thank you moon. Flea market older signings. I also cant wait for the bs to come out once the Napoli situation resolves itself. Lack of homework signing an injured player.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    In response to EdithBRTN's comment:

    In response to ADG's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    If his plan was to buy time for the prospects, his signings should have been structured so that when the prospects are ready, the signed players we still have are still in their prime, and not 80+.



    Thank you moon. Flea market older signings. I also cant wait for the bs to come out once the Napoli situation resolves itself. Lack of homework signing an injured player.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    You mean that if the homework is done then an extensive physical is not necessary? I always thought that an extensive physical was standard procedure.





    Right. My point is there is obviously something VERY WRONG. The Red Sox will sign him anyway, i.e. Lackey, and he will stink up the joint because he will be playing injured right off the bat.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    Cant field a team every year with FA.

    My point, exactly, and that is why out of all the recent years, this was the year to avoid the mediocrity signings at top dollar.

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    In response to mthomas43's comment:

    You need to ask two questions in general.  1) Did they spend alot of money?  Yep.  2) Did they improve the product on the field?  I dont see it.  I'd of rather gone with kids and had the same record give or take 5-7 wins.



    What Kids. Name them please !! If you're referring to Iggy who can't hit his weight he had his shot and couldn't hit the side of a barn. Who else, Nava ~ Not very good, a bench player at best. The Minor League prospects, you bring them up prematurely and if they don't produce the run the risk of ruining a young players confidence and stalling their developement. 

    Again what players !!

    Hetch

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:

    90% Uehara/Papi   (This should be separate, Ortiz was overpaid big time on what was a 1 year market of no more than about 15M including an option) Uehara was a B- Value and B+ fit

    75% Gomes  (This platoon guy was an overpay but a C- Value and B- fit)

    61% D Ross  (This was about a 40% overpay but a C- Value and B fit) 

    60% Victorino (They have no crediblity on this)

    52% Dempster/Napoli (They have no credibility on this)




    Why do you guys get so caught up in how much these guys are getting paid?? It's not like the organization is going to reduce ticket prices any time soon, so what they pay for players should be irrelevant, unless it prevents them from signing players of need...like last offseason when their payroll was maxed out.


    Softy, I have no idea what "They have no credibility on this' is supposed to mean?? Over 50% of people say one thing and there's no credibility there??? So what does that make your opinion and mine???

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    Napoli is a fit, assuming he passes the physicals, which it appears he's failed without a doubt.

    This makes total sense, if it only made sense, which it doesn't, without a doubt.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:

    40 million on Shane, a senior citizen corner OF platoon phase of career guy", is obviously embarrassing. That 60% would support the move will prove to be embarrassing.

    Ditto on 67 million for old high miles Napoli and Dumpster. Napoli is a fit, assuming he passes the physicals, which it appears he's failed without a doubt.




    Since when is a 32 year old player deemed a senior citizen?? Napoli is 31??

    Maybe Dempster can be classified as senior at age 36 next year but he was not brought in to be a savior of the rotation, just another experienced major league pitcher that has a history of being a workhorse. I hope the Sox get those innings from him too...but who else would guarantee production in the rotation this is out there today?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:

    90% Uehara/Papi   (This should be separate, Ortiz was overpaid big time on what was a 1 year market of no more than about 15M including an option) Uehara was a B- Value and B+ fit

    75% Gomes  (This platoon guy was an overpay but a C- Value and B- fit)

    61% D Ross  (This was about a 40% overpay but a C- Value and B fit) 

    60% Victorino (They have no crediblity on this)

    52% Dempster/Napoli (They have no credibility on this)



    Also, keep in mind who is voting. Those votes  are ALWAYS swayed to the positive. Last year the vote was 70% something the team would make the playoffs. They are skewed to the optimists. If the numbers came out that low, they are bad signings.

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Wolfpack13's comment:

    You guys crack me up with the "good value" stuff. In terms of free agents, the majority of the time the only players who will be a "good value" is the Beltres and maybe the Cody Rosses of the world. And when the Sox sign these type players in the off season they get blased with crap like "we never sign top talent."

    What a lot of posters seem to not realize is that Ben is trying to make the team just good enough to watch and maybe stay within a few games out of a wildcard spot in Sept. He hasn't given one prospect away in the process and hasn't signed anyone over 3 years. I'm not defending all these moves, but last year was an absolute mess. If you know baseball you know it wasn't his fault- he was given a mess. And if you know baseball it should take more than a year to go from worst to first. The point? Let it play out a little bit.



    The Beltre & Ross signings never won us a ring: the Manny one did. The Papi one did.  The Schill and Beckett trades did.

    We realize Ben is "trying to make the team good...", we just disagree with his methodology and choices.

    I never blamed Ben for "the mess" of 2012. I praised him for breaking the paradigm of "you can't fire the team" with the brilliant Dodger trade. He wiped the slate clean, but in my opinion, he smudged it back up again, but at a lesser longterm timeframe.

    Yes, let the games be played and his brilliance, or incompetanc,e or somewhere inbetween be proven.



    He got nothing in return for the Dodger deal. And how was getting rid of arguably the best pure hitter in baseball, brilliant? Not to mention GG caliber defense!

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    In response to ADG's comment:

    What grade would you give Ben C on the signings:

    1. David Ross - B Gives team flexibility if they make a trade. If they don't trade Salty, then they are letting Lavarnway fade away to a non-prospect, assuming he is one.

    2. Johnny Gomes - C Good 4th OF, but way overpaid. He only made $1M last year and there was no justification for giving him $5M per year. If they end up signing Cody Ross, then they have a very expensive 4th outfielder and there is no room on the team for any prospect who may do well in spring training.

    3. Mike Napoli - F Way overpaid for a guy who obiously is not a multidimensional player and who is obviously injured. Anytime you want to get out of a contract you offered, you deserve a failing grade.

    4. Shane Victorino - B-/C+ Not happy with the money he shelled out for this guy, but after all of the other singings, this one doesn't look too bad. If they end up keeping Ellsbury after 2013, then this signing could prevent JBJ or Brentz from playing time.

    5. Dempster - C+ Good 5th starter, but age and a lifetime NL pitcher are major causes for concern.

    6. Drew - D Giving a guy who hit .223 a raise from $8M to $9.5M? Cherry got used by Boras on this one.

     




    Interesting that "Cherington's incompetence" has added up to mostly B and C signings...I expected harsher from you, ADG. I'd probably rate Drew significantly higher (last year he was coming off an injury, and he's only signed for 1 year unlike the others and will have something to prove), probably a little lower on Dempster, and Napoli an incomplete until we know if the deal goes through and what the final terms are. But otherwise I mostly agree with this.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    In response to ADG's comment:

    What grade would you give Ben C on the signings:

    1. David Ross - B Gives team flexibility if they make a trade. If they don't trade Salty, then they are letting Lavarnway fade away to a non-prospect, assuming he is one.

    2. Johnny Gomes - C Good 4th OF, but way overpaid. He only made $1M last year and there was no justification for giving him $5M per year. If they end up signing Cody Ross, then they have a very expensive 4th outfielder and there is no room on the team for any prospect who may do well in spring training.

    3. Mike Napoli - F Way overpaid for a guy who obiously is not a multidimensional player and who is obviously injured. Anytime you want to get out of a contract you offered, you deserve a failing grade.

    4. Shane Victorino - B-/C+ Not happy with the money he shelled out for this guy, but after all of the other singings, this one doesn't look too bad. If they end up keeping Ellsbury after 2013, then this signing could prevent JBJ or Brentz from playing time.

    5. Dempster - C+ Good 5th starter, but age and a lifetime NL pitcher are major causes for concern.

    6. Drew - D Giving a guy who hit .223 a raise from $8M to $9.5M? Cherry got used by Boras on this one.

     




    Rush to judgement much?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from xdrive. Show xdrive's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    I give Gomes a D and Drew a B and Napoli a C

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from xdrive. Show xdrive's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    In response to mthomas43's comment:

    You need to ask two questions in general.  1) Did they spend alot of money?  Yep.  2) Did they improve the product on the field?  I dont see it.  I'd of rather gone with kids and had the same record give or take 5-7 wins.



    1) No they did NOT spend a lot of money or get stuck with a long term deal

    2) they did improve the product on the field

    3) you saw "the kids" in september and it was bad because they are not ready for MLB yet 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from xdrive. Show xdrive's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Wolfpack13's comment:

    You guys crack me up with the "good value" stuff. In terms of free agents, the majority of the time the only players who will be a "good value" is the Beltres and maybe the Cody Rosses of the world. And when the Sox sign these type players in the off season they get blased with crap like "we never sign top talent."

    What a lot of posters seem to not realize is that Ben is trying to make the team just good enough to watch and maybe stay within a few games out of a wildcard spot in Sept. He hasn't given one prospect away in the process and hasn't signed anyone over 3 years. I'm not defending all these moves, but last year was an absolute mess. If you know baseball you know it wasn't his fault- he was given a mess. And if you know baseball it should take more than a year to go from worst to first. The point? Let it play out a little bit.



    The Beltre & Ross signings never won us a ring: the Manny one did. The Papi one did.  The Schill and Beckett trades did.

    We realize Ben is "trying to make the team good...", we just disagree with his methodology and choices.

    I never blamed Ben for "the mess" of 2012. I praised him for breaking the paradigm of "you can't fire the team" with the brilliant Dodger trade. He wiped the slate clean, but in my opinion, he smudged it back up again, but at a lesser longterm timeframe.

    Yes, let the games be played and his brilliance, or incompetanc,e or somewhere inbetween be proven.



    its pretty simple he signed guys to short term deals that will fill the gap until the top minor league talent is ready for the big leagues, he's trying to build from within without losing 100 games at the same time, maybe he also is sitting back waiting for Justin Verlander to hit the market and doesnt want to muddy up the roster with dumb contracts like the Anibal Sanchez deal or the Greinke deal

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from xdrive. Show xdrive's posts

    Re: Ben Cherington Incompetence and Grades

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    If his plan was to buy time for the prospects, his signings should have been structured so that when the prospects are ready, the signed players we still have are still in their prime, and not 80+.




    seriously Moon? Most FA are about 30-34 years old. You know this. Very rarely is there a Manny out there. We have to be realistic. And if there is, it has to be a good fit. SV, MN, JG will all be 33-34 when their done. Sorry bro, thats not old. What it is is the backend of their prime. 27-32 are prime years.

    Usually your more realistic than this Moon.



    There were younger FAs than who we signed, and some were for 3 or less years. That is real.

    While you are right about these signings not being longterm and blocking our prospects, none will help us greatly in 2014 or 2015 when it seemed maybe with proper planning, we could have touched on being serious contneders.

    Also, nothing said we had to sign FAs just because they are there and can be signed for the highest price. I get the reasoning by Ben to make us appear to be a contending team, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I wouldn't mind some short bridge players for that purpose, but guys like Dempster and Victorino are going to decline in performance and take up budget space when we really need it: 2014 and 2015.

    As for prime, Dempster is beyond even the beginning of post-prime. Victorino should be worse by 2014-2015, and Naps is alredy showing sign of needing a walker soon. That's $39M a year until the end of 2015. I am certain that $39M will be needed in 2015, and these guys will likely be no more than bit role players.




    i hear A LOT of whining about the approach the redsox have taken thus far but i have not seen anyone post what they think the redsox should have done or who they should have signed so lets see what you have to say, who did you want the sox to sign or trade for this off season???

     
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