Ben do we really need Papi to return?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    Papi was not a leader this year and even seemed selfish.  He feels he has not been treated well even though Francona showed incredible patience with him as he struggled in 2009 and early 2010.  I think what he offers is not particularly essential, the days of him being a defining player on the Red Sox are over. I would let him go. He is not happy and will not be most likely next year.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    How about we trade Adrian Gonzalez for Carlos Pena and a 2nd-tier prospect?  That's the equivalent loss of production we're looking at by letting Papi go for a draft pick.  If you're losing production to get something back of equal value, then I understand.  If you're just p1ssing it away, it's hard to fathom.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from slowpokegrandpa. Show slowpokegrandpa's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    He did not hit 30 homers in 2011, and has only hit 30+ once in 4 years.... please tell us what is so FREAKING great about that? Stop FREAKING acting like Ortiz is the 35/115 guy of days long GONE.
    Posted by BurritoT

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from slowpokegrandpa. Show slowpokegrandpa's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    How about we trade Adrian Gonzalez for Carlos Pena and a 2nd-tier prospect?  That's the equivalent loss of production we're looking at by letting Papi go for a draft pick.  If you're losing production to get something back of equal value, then I understand.  If you're just p1ssing it away, it's hard to fathom.
    Posted by slomag

    i agree losing ortiz only weakens the offense because other than pujols or fielder no other dh will matxh his numbers last 3 years ortiz hr and rbi number r as follows 28-99 2020 32-102,2011 29-96 for average of 29.6 hr and 99 rbis some guys wnat him to walk just for change not a true fan of the sox what we need is 2 starting pitchers and at least 1 in bp
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return? : You make some decent points, especially that Papi is one-dimensional (though he could play 1B if pressed to do so and be fine). I think what a lot of people are overlooking is that, while Pedey is the Heart of this team, I contend that Papi is the Soul. The RS just will not be the same without him. Too many on this board are so wrapped up in sabermetrics, they forget about all the intangibles that reap rewards from the human element of these guys. Ortiz should stay and retire as a Red Sox.
    Posted by Alibiike


    Should he only stay so he can retire as a Sox? That is not good baseball is it? Papi within the last few years has really shot off his mouth, got paid big bucks, really had no leadership qualities (this year for sure on the field), can't play D, and lacks any effort runwise. 

    Papi will always be remembered for his Sox career and his heroics regardless of whether or not he retires in a Sox uni. But those heroics left years ago. The Sox should not offer him any more overpriced contracts. Reality is, he would have already been offered something if teams were interested.

    The Sox will survive without Papi, and the Sox can't afford to keep players just so they can retire in a Sox uniform. Otherwise, there are 2 other players then that have to be kept: V-tek and Wake.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thomasmtom. Show Thomasmtom's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    The problem as I see it is who will fit in Ortiz’s slot and put up the numbers he has?

    The names the Red Sox have been kicking around don’t impress me, nor will they impress opposing pitchers. Ortiz could continue his decline as a force in this lineup, but the current roster and available free agents don’t provide a solid replacement.

    This team needs a RH hitting outfielder and pitching. Why try to fix something that isn’t broken when you have so many other positions that need attention.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    How about we trade Adrian Gonzalez for Carlos Pena and a 2nd-tier prospect? That's the equivalent loss of production we're looking at by letting Papi go for a draft pick. If you're losing production to get something back of equal value, then I understand. If you're just p1ssing it away, it's hard to fathom.

    Bogus argument.  You don't replace Ortiz with the draft pick (he would actually bring 2 first rounders if the new CBA doesn't change type A FA compensation).  You replace him with Youk or a FA signing along the lines of Guerrero.  In Youk you get very similar production out of the DH slot, more speed (albeit not much) on the bases, more flexibility defensively and more RHanded (which is necessary, IMO).  In Guerrero you get a guy who has never hit lower than .290 in his career, and hit 27 HRs as little as one year ago, all for about 4 million less.

    BTW, here is the list of FA DHs:

    Milton Bradley (34)
    Johnny Damon (37)
    Vladimir Guerrero (37) - Type B
    Carlos Guillen (36)
    David Ortiz (36) - Type A
    Jason Kubel (29) - Type B
    Hideki Matsui (38)
    Wily Mo Pena (30)
    Jorge Posada (40)
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from sinjin5000. Show sinjin5000's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    it all depends on what papi wants, two years at 8 mil a year? ok, more then that, it's time to say good bye, 

    we will see if the post Theo RS have learned their lesson, if they sign papi for more then two yrs at 8 mil, they haven't learned a thing. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    Vlad is definitely an option

    Last four years: 
    --Average--.297 
    --139 games per year
    --Hits 154 per
    --21 doubles
    --21 HR's
    --80 RBI
    --30 walks
    --62 K's
    --Salary 2011--$8 M

    2011 Just 13 HR's--no protection compared to 2010 with Texas --29 HR's

    If I'm signing a DH FA I would go with Papi but for no more than $8 since I could probably sign Vlad for $5 plus incentives.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    Teakus I understand the pro-Ortiz crowd, it has merit. I am on the opposite side, far opposite.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    Let the dude walk, along with no more wake or tek or paps, I'm good with that.  Reason, you need the versatility--guys not playing can fill in at dh and hone their batting eye, Youk, Lava, et al.  Youk would be a good dh, get less beat up not flopping around so much at third, Gonzo can dh & Youk play 1st sometimes too, Youk's better at 1st than 3rd anyway, letting Papi go would be like having another 1/2 player on the roster.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    I understand BurritoT and fully respect your right to your opinion. We will all see how the future unfolds together. I know one thing we all agree on is a desire to see our Red Sox in a position to win a ring. Beginning this year making the playoffs will be fairly easy for us, with 3 clubs from each league making the post season. But winning a ring? Ahhh....that will forever be challenging and will truly separate the winners from the wannabeeeeees.




    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    Teakus I understand the pro-Ortiz crowd, it has merit. I am on the opposite side, far opposite.
    Posted by BurritoT

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    Our CBT budget so far...
    (avg anual salary of contract)

    AGon  $22.0M
    Craw  $20.3M
    Beck   $17.0M
    Lack   $16.5M
    Youk  $10.3M
    Dice     $8.0M
    Buch    $7.5M
    Ells    ~$7.0M (est arb raise- 2nd of 3- from $2.4M in '11)
    Pedey $6.7M
    Lest    $6.0M
    Jenks  $6.0M
    Scut    $5.7M
    Bard  ~2.5M  (est arb- 1sy of 3- from $.505M in '11)
    Acev ~$2.5M
    (est arb- 1st of 3- from $.65M in '11) 
    Salty ~$2.5M (est arb-2nd of 3- from $.75M in '11)
    Iggy    $2.1M
    Aviles~$1.0M (est arb-1st of 3- from $.64M in '11)
    Albers~1.0M  (est arb- 2nd of 3- from $.875M in '11) 
    Taza ~$0.8M  (est, pre-arb, then 4 more arbs: made $1.1M x 3 yrs)
    Lowrie ~$.8M (est arb- 1st of 3- from $.45M in '11)
    DMac ~$0.5M  (est, pre-arb, then 3 more arbs: made $.47M in '11)
    Moral ~$0.5M (est arb-1st of 3- from $.424M in '11)
    Doub ~$0.5M (pre-arb, then 2 more pre-arbs+3 arbs: made $.417M)
    Atch  ~$0.5M (pre-arb, then 1 more pre-arb+3 arbs: made $.454M)
    R.Hill ~$0.5M (2nd arb? out of 3???)
    All the rest are pre-arb and close to minimum salary:.

    Oki??? 2nd of 3 arbs: made $1.75M in '11 (May let him go)

    By my estimate, our total payroll budget (assuming we sign the arb guys)is currently at about: Lavarnway, Kalish, Reddick, Bowden (no options), Weiland, Anderson, Tejada, Exposito, Pimental, etc...
    Add about $8M for the rest at near min salary:



    $156M Total Estimated Salary for 2012 with no moves.

    It was about $164M in 2011 and $168M in 2010 according to Cots.
    It was about $167M in 2011 according to baseball reference, and they estimate our 2012 player payroll budget (with arbs signed) at about $160.4M.

    I think many posters are grossly over-estimating how much we have to spend this winter to fill at least 7 slots (with kids or otherwise):
    1) SP
    2) SP
    3) Closer/Set-up
    4) DH
    5) RP
    6) RF (RH'd)
    7) C



     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    Another option--TRADE YOUK --We need to determine if Youk is more valuable than Papi.
    We are really heavy lefthanded without Youk.
    Does Youk offer better protection for AGon than Papi?
    Could Youk put up Papi numbers if all he did was DH?
    Youk does offer back-up protection at 1 b and 3 b when we play in NL parks also.

    Is this all business or sentiment? If it's business like Papelbon--you let Papi walk whether you get a draft pick or not. Thanks for all these great years but we are going in a different direction with the DH position. AND the  same with YOUK--we have a 1 b and we don't think you can play 140 games at 3 b and be productive--we are going in a different direction. We are searching for a trade--where would you like to play next season--we will do our best.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    How about we trade Adrian Gonzalez for Carlos Pena and a 2nd-tier prospect? That's the equivalent loss of production we're looking at by letting Papi go for a draft pick. If you're losing production to get something back of equal value, then I understand. If you're just p1ssing it away, it's hard to fathom. Bogus argument.  You don't replace Ortiz with the draft pick (he would actually bring 2 first rounders if the new CBA doesn't change type A FA compensation).  You replace him with Youk or a FA signing along the lines of Guerrero.  In Youk you get very similar production out of the DH slot, more speed (albeit not much) on the bases, more flexibility defensively and more RHanded (which is necessary, IMO).  In Guerrero you get a guy who has never hit lower than .290 in his career, and hit 27 HRs as little as one year ago, all for about 4 million less. BTW, here is the list of FA DHs: Milton Bradley (34) Johnny Damon (37) Vladimir Guerrero (37) - Type B Carlos Guillen (36) David Ortiz (36) - Type A Jason Kubel (29) - Type B Hideki Matsui (38) Wily Mo Pena (30) Jorge Posada (40)
    Posted by parhunter1

    Guerrero's OPS was .733 in 2011.  That's 220 points below Papi's.

    Yes, a healthy Youk has numbers that compare to Ortiz.  But then your replacement at third is a huge drop offensively.


     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxforlife22. Show soxforlife22's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    Our CBT budget so far... (avg anual salary of contract) AGon  $22.0M Craw  $20.3M Beck   $17.0M Lack   $16.5M Youk  $10.3M Dice     $8.0M Buch    $7.5M Ells     ~$7.0M (est arb raise- 2nd of 3- from $2.4M in '11) Pedey $6.7M Lest    $6.0M Jenks  $6.0M Scut    $5.7M Bard  ~2.5M  (est arb- 1sy of 3- from $.505M in '11) Acev ~$2.5M (est arb- 1st of 3- from $.65M in '11)  Salty  ~$2.5M (est arb-2nd of 3- from $.75M in '11) Iggy    $2.1M Aviles~$1.0M (est arb-1st of 3- from $.64M in '11) Albers~1.0M   (est arb- 2nd of 3- from $.875M in '11)  Taza  ~$0.8M   (est, pre-arb, then 4 more arbs: made $1.1M x 3 yrs) Lowrie ~$.8M (est arb- 1st of 3- from $.45M in '11) DMac ~$0.5M   (est, pre-arb, then 3 more arbs: made $.47M in '11) Moral ~$0.5M (est arb-1st of 3- from $.424M in '11) Doub ~$0.5M (pre-arb, then 2 more pre-arbs+3 arbs: made $.417M) Atch  ~$0.5M (pre-arb, then 1 more pre-arb+3 arbs: made $.454M) R.Hill ~$0.5M (2nd arb? out of 3???) All the rest are pre-arb and close to minimum salary:. Oki??? 2nd of 3 arbs: made $1.75M in '11 (May let him go) By my estimate, our total payroll budget (assuming we sign the arb guys)is currently at about: Lavarnway, Kalish, Reddick, Bowden (no options), Weiland, Anderson, Tejada, Exposito, Pimental, etc... Add about $8M for the rest at near min salary: $156M Total Estimated Salary for 2012 with no moves. It was about $164M in 2011 and $168M in 2010 according to Cots. It was about $167M in 2011 according to baseball reference, and they estimate our 2012 player payroll budget (with arbs signed) at about $160.4M . I think many posters are grossly over-estimating how much we have to spend this winter to fill at least 7 slots (with kids or otherwise): 1) SP 2) SP 3) Closer/Set-up 4) DH 5) RP 6) RF (RH'd) 7) C
    Posted by moonslav59

    They are off on arbitration predictions. They take averages. So they guess that it will cost "$725k for pre-arbitration, $2.5M for 1st-year arb, $3.75M for 2nd-year-arb, $5.25M for 3rd-year-arb, $7M for 4th-year-arb" None of our players will reach these numbers except Ellsbury will exceed the the 3rd year arb number. They guessed that our arb costs would be 31.5 mil but it will probably be no more than 16-17 million max (that is if we do not tender oki a contract). Plus they factor in just over 2 mil to fill out the 25 man so in reality we have around 23 million dollars until we reach where we were last year.
    And im not sure if this is correct but doesnt the payroll tax limit go up every year? If anyone knows please tell me
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return? : They are off on arbitration predictions. They take averages. So they guess that it will cost "$725k for pre-arbitration, $2.5M for 1st-year arb, $3.75M for 2nd-year-arb, $5.25M for 3rd-year-arb, $7M for 4th-year-arb" None of our players will reach these numbers except Ellsbury will exceed the the 3rd year arb number. They guessed that our arb costs would be 31.5 mil but it will probably be no more than 16-17 million max (that is if we do not tender oki a contract). Plus they factor in just over 2 mil to fill out the 25 man so in reality we have around 23 million dollars until we reach where we were last year. And im not sure if this is correct but doesnt the payroll tax limit go up every year? If anyone knows please tell me
    Posted by soxforlife22

    Yes, I think I read it should be about $185M for 2012.  I think it's entirely realistic that we will bump up against it again - this FO is not afraid to spend money - they just don't like giving money to other teams.


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from CASox. Show CASox's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    Who realastically could replace Ortiz in today's market?
    Posted by bruinsGENIUS


    Exactly!! For those of you who want him gone, tell us who we get that can put up those numbers?? Im talking free agents  not trades!
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxforlife22. Show soxforlife22's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return? : Yes, I think I read it should be about $185M for 2012.  I think it's entirely realistic that we will bump up against it again - this FO is not afraid to spend money - they just don't like giving money to other teams.
    Posted by slomag

    thanks!
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    It really doesn't matter--If Papi is the best player to serve the Red Sox as DH sign him for what the budget allows--no more no less--it's business not sentiment! If he doesn't fit the plan move on.

    The Sox are open for business. They are open to anything that makes us better.

    If Hanrahan is deemed to be a better closed than Bard of Aceves--trade for him or Bailey from the A's or sign one of the multiple FA. It's got to be what's good for the TEAM.


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return? : Exactly!! For those of you who want him gone, tell us who we get that can put up those numbers?? Im talking free agents  not trades!
    Posted by CASox



    ROFL!  Those numbers? Hahahahahaha good one!  29 homers? 96 ribbies?  You are acting like he is the 35/120 guy we used to know long ago.  Not to mention you are assuming he will repeat his 2011 success. Ha!
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return? : ROFL!  Those numbers? Hahahahahaha good one!  29 homers? 96 ribbies?  You are acting like he is the 35/120 guy we used to know long ago.  Not to mention you are assuming he will repeat his 2011 success. Ha!
    Posted by BurritoT

    Forget about his prime - take your pick of any year of his Red Sox career, and come up with a plan to replace his numbers.  Even in 2009, he had an .828 OPS against righties.  

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TitleTown11. Show TitleTown11's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    I like Ortiz and was very happy for him to return to form in 2011. But it's not good business to give him a three year deal given our other needs and the amount of money already committed to the team. Two straight springs he was an out machine before reviving in the second half. You could make the point that if Francona wasn't the manager (player's manager to the end), Ortiz would've been released a couple seasons ago. I remember the Gammons' report that it was going to happen.

    I digress.

    We have Lavarnway who has nothing to learn offensively playing in AAA again. We have players who would be rotated through the DH.
    We have other needs.

    And by we, I mean they.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from KingOSmakk. Show KingOSmakk's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    How about if I come in looking like I used to...

    Before I changed my name and started taking the roids with ManRam


     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?

    In Response to Re: Ben do we really need Papi to return?:
    I like Ortiz and was very happy for him to return to form in 2011. But it's not good business to give him a three year deal given our other needs and the amount of money already committed to the team. Two straight springs he was an out machine before reviving in the second half. You could make the point that if Francona wasn't the manager (player's manager to the end), Ortiz would've been released a couple seasons ago. I remember the Gammons' report that it was going to happen. I digress. We have Lavarnway who has nothing to learn offensively playing in AAA again. We have players who would be rotated through the DH. We have other needs. And by we, I mean they.
    Posted by TitleTown11

    I think Lavarnway is a legitimate replacement for Ortiz ... in two years.  You can't expect he's going to step right in and put up a .900 OPS.  Ortiz might regress rapidly, but he's always had a good idea of the strike zone (which ages well) and the difference between his 2010 and 2011 is the ability to take a left-handed pitcher the other way.  If he has re-invented his approach against lefties, he could have easily breathed a few more years into his career.  If you sign Ortiz to a 3-year deal (cheap club buyout on third year), the most likely scenario is he is the best DH in the game over those 3 years.  The worst case scenario is that he is an $8M/year bench-warmer.  Given all he has done for the organization, if there is one guy on the planet I don't mind giving $8M to warm the bench, it's Ortiz.


     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share