Yet the career .299 OBP guy in the minors makes the team?

 

(Ciriaco)

Please explain.

 

Neither has made the team yet. And of the two, Ciriaco has had much better success at the ML level

 

 

 

Ciriaco is better than Iggy. right now.

Based on what? A small MLB sample size?

Iggy is a better fielder and has a better career OBP in professional baseball.

Ciriaco is a good fielder, but I think Iggy is better on defense. The offense is still in doubt, but there is very little evidence to show that Pedro is a better offensive player than Iggy. He has under 300 career ML PAs spread over 3 seasons. Everyone sees the .299 BA and says Woah! But, look closer: he has a .319 OBP which will probably end up closer to his minor league number of .299 by career's end.

not to mention with Ciriaco he isn't going to get much better so spending time in AAA isn't going to do him much good.

On the flip side, we basically know what we have with Ciriaco: about a .300 OBP versitile player. Is that good enough to keep a promising player down? I understand if you think Iggy is not ready and could "develop more" by staying in AAA. I understand that Drew will likely render Iggy or Pedro to the back-up role, so then yes, Iggy should play everyday, but some of us think Iggy was ready in 2012 or even 2011.

 

Iggy is much much younger and can still develop and get much much better so AAA is the perfect palce for him.

Not if he is better than Drew or Ciriaco..." right now".

In response to moonslav59's comment:
[QUOTE]

Yet the career .299 OBP guy in the minors makes the team?

 

(Ciriaco)

Please explain.

 

Neither has made the team yet. And of the two, Ciriaco has had much better success at the ML level

 

 

 

Ciriaco is better than Iggy. right now.

Based on what? A small MLB sample size?

Unfortunately yes, Doesn't matter what you do in the minor leagues. the bigs is the only place where the numbers really count. There are guys who light it up in the Minors and never string it together in the bigs, the reverse is also true (but more unlikely). In short, i'll take the better player against MLB competition than the better player VS MiLB competition. Ciriaco has proven he can actually hit MLB pitching (no matter the sample size) whereas Iggy has stunk when facing MLB pitching...

Iggy is a better fielder and has a better career OBP in professional baseball.

Iggy is a slightly better fielder and Ciriaco is a slightly better hitter based on MLB stats (read above statement). Ciriaco is not going to set the world on fire but he is perfect for what we need him to be... a UIF. I would not choose him to be my starting SS over Iggy as i've said to you many times.

Ciriaco is a good fielder, but I think Iggy is better on defense. The offense is still in doubt, but there is very little evidence to show that Pedro is a better offensive player than Iggy. He has under 300 career ML PAs spread over 3 seasons. Everyone sees the .299 BA and says Woah! But, look closer: he has a .319 OBP which will probably end up closer to his minor league number of .299 by career's end.

not to mention with Ciriaco he isn't going to get much better so spending time in AAA isn't going to do him much good.

On the flip side, we basically know what we have with Ciriaco: about a .300 OBP versitile player. Is that good enough to keep a promising player down? I understand if you think Iggy is not ready and could "develop more" by staying in AAA. I understand that Drew will likely render Iggy or Pedro to the back-up role, so then yes, Iggy should play everyday, but some of us think Iggy was ready in 2012 or even 2011.

This is where you and i part ways.. You think Iggy is ready based solely on his glove while i think he needs to display some sort of sustained offensive production. The FO seems to feel the same way (and rightfully so), you make a big deal about how we may struggle against RHP and/or in road parks and yet you want to carry a guy who ATM would most likely get eaten alive facing MLB pitching? (as the numbers support -despite the sample size).

 

Iggy is much much younger and can still develop and get much much better so AAA is the perfect palce for him.

Not if he is better than Drew or Ciriaco..." right now".

"right now" Drew is a better SS overall than Iggy is. Ciriaco is about even with Iggy but he gets the edge for having better ML numbers than Iggy (i am aware of the sample sizes..........)

No matter how you slice it, until Iggy shows he can hit he doesn't deserve to be a starting MLB SS nor will he ever get the chance (barring injury). Do i think he can improve offensively?? absolutely! but until he shows it i am not handing him the job. period.

Drew isn't a better "overall SS" than any but the very worst SS's.

Ciriaco is better than Iggy. right now.

Based on what? A small MLB sample size?

Unfortunately yes, Doesn't matter what you do in the minor leagues. the bigs is the only place where the numbers really count. There are guys who light it up in the Minors and never string it together in the bigs, the reverse is also true (but more unlikely). In short, i'll take the better player against MLB competition than the better player VS MiLB competition. Ciriaco has proven he can actually hit MLB pitching (no matter the sample size) whereas Iggy has stunk when facing MLB pitching...

 

A .319 OBP in a small sample size proves nothing. It's barely above his minor league mark. His 2012 OBP was below his previous ML career number, and it declined as the season went on: 

July  .357

Aug  .337

Sept  .269

You may end up being right, but making definitive judgements based on 300 and 75 PAs is not prudent.

 

 

Iggy is a better fielder and has a better career OBP in professional baseball.

Iggy is a slightly better fielder and Ciriaco is a slightly better hitter based on MLB stats (read above statement). Ciriaco is not going to set the world on fire but he is perfect for what we need him to be... a UIF. I would not choose him to be my starting SS over Iggy as i've said to you many times.

 

If you go by ML stats as you do with Pedro's offense, the Iggy's D is world class greatness. His UZR/150 was cosmic.

 

 

Ciriaco is a good fielder, but I think Iggy is better on defense. The offense is still in doubt, but there is very little evidence to show that Pedro is a better offensive player than Iggy. He has under 300 career ML PAs spread over 3 seasons. Everyone sees the .299 BA and says Woah! But, look closer: he has a .319 OBP which will probably end up closer to his minor league number of .299 by career's end.

not to mention with Ciriaco he isn't going to get much better so spending time in AAA isn't going to do him much good.

On the flip side, we basically know what we have with Ciriaco: about a .300 OBP versitile player. Is that good enough to keep a promising player down? I understand if you think Iggy is not ready and could "develop more" by staying in AAA. I understand that Drew will likely render Iggy or Pedro to the back-up role, so then yes, Iggy should play everyday, but some of us think Iggy was ready in 2012 or even 2011.

This is where you and i part ways.. You think Iggy is ready based solely on his glove while i think he needs to display some sort of sustained offensive production. The FO seems to feel the same way (and rightfully so), you make a big deal about how we may struggle against RHP and/or in road parks and yet you want to carry a guy who ATM would most likely get eaten alive facing MLB pitching? (as the numbers support -despite the sample size).

 

I think we parted ways in the paragraphs before this. And, yes I will take a struggling offensive SS who can save 50-100 hist over a season, so we can win some of those low scoring road games in Seattle and Oakland. He will shorten innings, help starters go deeper in games, improve their confidence, and save the pen. Yes, I want improved hitting vs RHPs, but I have always been about pitching and defense first.

 

 

Iggy is much much younger and can still develop and get much much better so AAA is the perfect palce for him.

Not if he is better than Drew or Ciriaco..." right now".

"right now" Drew is a better SS overall than Iggy is. Ciriaco is about even with Iggy but he gets the edge for having better ML numbers than Iggy (i am aware of the sample sizes..........)

Are you aware of the huge defensive differential in the small sample sizes?

Out of 114 SSs with 130+ innings from 2010-2012:

1) Iggy  41.5 UZR/150 

37) Drew  4.3

46) Ciriaco 1.8

(Note: I am not saying Iggy is much better based on tiny sample size numbers, but am just posting this to counter your use of tiny offensive sample size judgements like Iggy's 74 PAs spread over 2 seasons.)

 

 

No matter how you slice it, until Iggy shows he can hit he doesn't deserve to be a starting MLB SS nor will he ever get the chance (barring injury). Do i think he can improve offensively?? absolutely! but until he shows it i am not handing him the job. period.

Iggy is ML ready today. He was last year. He probably was in 2011.

 

Let's pay a guy with a pin in his foot $9.5M to make 75 less plays in the field and get maybe 50 more hits on offense.

Brilliant.

In response to softlaw2's comment:

Makes me think I need to re-evaluate my position, but I guess a broken clock is...

You should have "re-evaluted" your position on trading for Santana and trumping the Mets trade offer, but you didn't.

In response to softlaw2's comment:

 

Drew isn't a better "overall SS" than any but the very worst SS's.

 

Of course. Because before his horrible ankle break he was about an .800 OPS MLB SS...How many of them are there again? Hint: there wasnt 3 last year...4 in 2011...and in 2010 there were 3 with Drew placing...Drew had the 3rd highest OPS in MLB before his injury...yeah, hes one of the worst...He was also 9th in 2009 and 2nd in 2008...

 

Is a he a GG ss? No, but hes hardly even close to a liability. Actually underrated if you ask me.

That certainly doesnt qualify his as one of the worst SS...

In response to southpaw777's comment:

softlaw isn't happy unless he's bashing the Sox. The only Red Sox player I've ever seen him say he liked was Ortiz and that only lasted until Ortiz got the 2 year deal softlaw said he deserved. I'm pretty certain he's not even a Red Sox fan and only comes here to regurgitate his right wing propagande.

In response to carnie's comment:

 without question

In response to softlaw2's comment:

I did re-evaluate and admitted I was wrong... try it sometimes.

 

In response to softlaw2's comment:

Can you back this up with numbers or by citing someone who qualifies as an expert?  I'd like to see where Drew is in the bottom third of qualified MLB shortstops.  If you said, "he isn't worth $10m x 1 year" I could respect that opinion, but this quote is just laughable.

 

And Moon, where in the world did you get this?  

"but some of us think Iggy was ready in 2012 or even 2011."

I understand the excitement over a prospect leads us to sometimes want to move them up sooner, but you still hold this opinion with 20/20 hindsight?  You think in 2011 (the year Iggy had a sub .600 OPS in AAA), he would have been a productive player in the majors?

 

In response to 111SoxFan111's comment:

I won't answer for moon but i will tell you this. The glove, he thinks that by virtue of his glove he would make an acceptable SS and any offense he gives is a bonus.. the FO, myself and others think otherwise.

In response to 111SoxFan111's comment:

Yes.

A player that saves 100 hits over a season is like adding 100 hits to his average. That's adding 200 points if he had gotten 500 PAs.

If he saved 50- add 100 points.

He would have still been a plus SS.

Besides, using hinsight 20/20, what difference would it have made?

I won't answer for moon but i will tell you this. The glove, he thinks that by virtue of his glove he would make an acceptable SS and any offense he gives is a bonus.. the FO, myself and others think otherwise.

I admit it is not a slam dunk decision, but a great ranged SS adds much hidden value to a team.

In response to moonslav59's comment:

the same way a good hitting SS with an average defense adds value to a team?

there's more than 1 way to skin a cat.

Just hope RS won't be afraid to eat a contract if need be. If Victorino, Gomes, Lackey, or other are playing terribly, and one of the guys in the farm is tearing it up JBJ, De La Rossa, Brentz, Boegarts, Webster, or Iggy that Ben and ownership are willing to do whats best for team on the field. One thing you can give Yanks credit for if player not performing they get them out of there. Burnett they paid his way out of town, Igawa were willing to pay him 40 mil to sit in minors, it was always about putting the best team on the field, they made more than there share of mistakes, but were always willing to eat a mistake. We had 2 yrs of Lackey pitching terribly should have had surgery after 1st year here, we all knew he had elbow issues before he signed, maybe then could have gotten 3 possible good years vs. 2, if lucky. Nothing seems to spur a team more than a young player coming up and doing well. The only good thing that happened to RS last yr was Middlebrooks.

In response to southpaw777's comment:

There was a guy who covers the D-Backs on WEEI who also said his defense was very underrated.  He said he always seems to position himself correctly, he steals a lot of bloop hits in the outfield because he has that same ability to immediately read the ball off the bat like his brother did and he makes all the routine plays look easy.  If he is as healthy as he says he is, he should be a plus defender at SS...

In response to mef429's comment:

I'll oversimplify here, but this is how I see it:

Let's say Stephen Drew fields average this year and bats .300 in 500 PAs. (150 hits)

Iggy is a top fielding SS who maybe would bat .220 in 500 PAs. (110 hits)

Let's say Iggy saves 50 hits with his superior range as compared to Drew; if you add 5o hits to his 110, he'd have 160 hits in 500 PAs as compared to Drew's 150. Drew would have more power, so maybe they'd be close to even. However, my assumption that Drew, with a pin in his foot, will be an average hitter is being generous, and perhaps the .300 BA is a high projection as well. Then, like I said, any hitting Iggy gives us above .200 would be " a bonus".

I know it is not this simple, but saving hits effects a team in many ways.

 

In response to moonslav59's comment:

 

Let's say Stephen Drew fields average this year and bats .300 in 500 PAs. (150 hits)

Iggy is a top fielding SS who maybe would bat .220 in 500 PAs. (110 hits)

Let's say Iggy saves 50 hits with his superior range as compared to Drew; if you add 5o hits to his 110, he'd have 160 hits in 500 PAs as compared to Drew's 150. Drew would have more power, so maybe they'd be close to even. However, my assumption that Drew, with a pin in his foot, will be an average hitter is being generous, and perhaps the .300 BA is a high projection as well. Then, like I said, any hitting Iggy gives us above .200 would be " a bonus".

I know it is not this simple, but saving hits effects a team in many ways.

Unfortunately this is pure hypotheticals, because there are no measures for 'hits saved'. 

If you want to do a fair comparison why not use some real data, like comparing WAR for a good hit no field SS (Jeter) to a good field no hit SS.

In response to moonslav59's comment:

I get where your coming from but i disagree with your assumption that Drew's offense will suffer with a pin in his foot. Pedey spent most of 2011 with a pin in his foot and he was in the MVP conversations. When healthy, Drews offense is comparable to Pedrioas. Before the outrage, i said COMPARABLE... Drew 113OPS+ in his last healthy season, Pedroia around 121 OPS+ when healthy...

Also, Drew will likely have a slightly above average defense so keeping with your numbers it is not unrealistic to think he will save 10 more hits than an avg SS to make up the difference over Iggys "egde". (Iggy with 160 "hits" and drew with ~160 "hits") not to mention the astronomical differnce between the 2 players slugging% pushes it back to Drews favor.

In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

 

In response to moonslav59's comment:

 

Let's say Stephen Drew fields average this year and bats .300 in 500 PAs. (150 hits)

Iggy is a top fielding SS who maybe would bat .220 in 500 PAs. (110 hits)

Let's say Iggy saves 50 hits with his superior range as compared to Drew; if you add 5o hits to his 110, he'd have 160 hits in 500 PAs as compared to Drew's 150. Drew would have more power, so maybe they'd be close to even. However, my assumption that Drew, with a pin in his foot, will be an average hitter is being generous, and perhaps the .300 BA is a high projection as well. Then, like I said, any hitting Iggy gives us above .200 would be " a bonus".

I know it is not this simple, but saving hits effects a team in many ways.

Unfortunately this is pure hypotheticals, because there are no measures for 'hits saved'. 

If you want to do a fair comparison why not use some real data, like comparing WAR for a good hit no field SS (Jeter) to a good field no hit SS.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=5,d

                                           JJ hardy VS Jeter in 2012

                          Batting                            Fielding                      WAR
JJ Hardy        -16.4 (18 of 19)                  11.4 (1 of 19)           2.8 (11 of 19)

Jeter               16.9 (3 of 19)                  -15.2 (19 of 19)          3.2 (8 of 19)

 

pretty close, hard to say which type of SS is better..

To me the point is having Drew on the team is it allows Jose another year to develop, and I think that given time, he can actually be a decent hitter. He's bulked up some in the off season (wasn't he working out with Pedey for a while?) and I think with some added power pitchers will have to work him a little more carefully. My hope is that he can push his OBP north of .300 this year in Pawtucket. If he can do that he can be a very valuable member of the Red Sox for years to come.

This post has been removed.

In response to mef429's comment:

Good start though, mef, thanks.

This post has been removed.