1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    I have done more in depth studies over the years, but here's a quick look at some differentials at SS in 2012:

     

    Plays Made by SSs with 1390+ Innings:

    Hardy 773  1439

    Castro 731 1403

    ARam  661  1392

    Reyes 645  1410

    Differential: 128 plays between Hardy and HanRam.

     

    1275-1380 Innings

    AEscobar  650  1380

    Andrus     641   1333

    Peralta     588   1278

    Rollins      581   1364

    Differential: 69 plays between Escobar and Rollins.

     

    1160-1250 Innings

    YEscobar   671  1251

    A Cabrera  632  1161

    Ryan          593  1171

    Aybar        591  1190

    Cozart       553  1164

    Barnes      546  1159

    Jeter         496  1186

    Differentail: 175 plays between Escobar and Jeter !! 

     

    How about Mike Aviles making 99 more plays than Ian Desmond in 22 less innings?

     

    There is ample evidence to show that some SSs can make 100 or more plays than others with equal innings played.

    Let's find a team with 2 SSs with about equal innings played to even out some of the variables:

    Dodgers:

    Dee Gordon  313 plays in 651 innings

    Hanley Ram  222 plays in 503 innings

     

     

    Rockies:

    Rutl   240 in 483

    Tulo   216 in 404

    Herr  154 in 315

     

    DBacks      

    Bloomquist 214 in 528

    McDonald   208 in 426

     

    It's not about the numbers. Just watch the game. It is easy to see plays made every game by great-ranged SSs that other SSs can't even make in their dreams. For years I have watched the opponent's SSs make play after play against us that our SSs never make. It may not be easily quantifiable, but it doesn't make it any less real.

     

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    can you include opportunities with your numbers? If hardy is getting 100-200 more balls hit to his zone than HanRam it makes sense that he would have more plays made..

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    Unfortunately this is pure hypotheticals, because there are no measures for 'hits saved'. 

    If you want to do a fair comparison why not use some real data, like comparing WAR for a good hit no field SS (Jeter) to a good field no hit SS.



    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=5,d

                                               JJ hardy VS Jeter in 2012

                              Batting                            Fielding                      WAR
    JJ Hardy        -16.4 (18 of 19)                  11.4 (1 of 19)           2.8 (11 of 19)

    Jeter               16.9 (3 of 19)                  -15.2 (19 of 19)          3.2 (8 of 19)

     

    pretty close, hard to say which type of SS is better..

     



    Good start though, mef, thanks.

     

     



    i just started a new thread on this subject and included data from a 5 year period. check it out.

     



    Here's some 5 year numbers:

    Jeter made 2576 plays in 6056 innings (most innings by a SS from 08-12).

    Look how many SSs made more plays in less innings than Jete?

    Y Escobar  3012 in 5865  +436 in about 200 less innings

    JJ Hardy    2922 in 5648  +246 in about 400 less innings

    E Aybar      2812 in 5605  +236 in about 450 less innings

    A Ramirez  2736 in 5497  +160 in about 550 less innings

    Rollins       2671 in 5848   +95  in about 300 less innings 

    Tulow        2643 in 4835   +67 in about 1,200 less innings

    E Andrus   2610 in 5123   +34 in about 900 less innings

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    Unfortunately this is pure hypotheticals, because there are no measures for 'hits saved'. 

    If you want to do a fair comparison why not use some real data, like comparing WAR for a good hit no field SS (Jeter) to a good field no hit SS.



    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=5,d

                                               JJ hardy VS Jeter in 2012

                              Batting                            Fielding                      WAR
    JJ Hardy        -16.4 (18 of 19)                  11.4 (1 of 19)           2.8 (11 of 19)

    Jeter               16.9 (3 of 19)                  -15.2 (19 of 19)          3.2 (8 of 19)

     

    pretty close, hard to say which type of SS is better..

     



    Good start though, mef, thanks.

     

     



    i just started a new thread on this subject and included data from a 5 year period. check it out.

     

     



    Here's some 5 year numbers:

     

    Jeter made 2576 plays in 6056 innings (most innings by a SS from 08-12).

    Look how many SSs made more plays in less innings than Jete?

    Y Escobar  3012 in 5865  +436 in about 200 less innings

    JJ Hardy    2922 in 5648  +246 in about 400 less innings

    E Aybar      2812 in 5605  +236 in about 450 less innings

    A Ramirez  2736 in 5497  +160 in about 550 less innings

    Rollins       2671 in 5848   +95  in about 300 less innings 

    Tulow        2643 in 4835   +67 in about 1,200 less innings

    E Andrus   2610 in 5123   +34 in about 900 less innings



    what about opportunities? innings dont mean a thing in this case. a guy with less innings than jeter could have had more balls hit to their zone which skews the numbers.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    Unfortunately this is pure hypotheticals, because there are no measures for 'hits saved'. 

    If you want to do a fair comparison why not use some real data, like comparing WAR for a good hit no field SS (Jeter) to a good field no hit SS.



    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=5,d

                                               JJ hardy VS Jeter in 2012

                              Batting                            Fielding                      WAR
    JJ Hardy        -16.4 (18 of 19)                  11.4 (1 of 19)           2.8 (11 of 19)

    Jeter               16.9 (3 of 19)                  -15.2 (19 of 19)          3.2 (8 of 19)

     

    pretty close, hard to say which type of SS is better..

     



    Good start though, mef, thanks.

     

     



    i just started a new thread on this subject and included data from a 5 year period. check it out.

     

     



    Here's some 5 year numbers:

     

    Jeter made 2576 plays in 6056 innings (most innings by a SS from 08-12).

    Look how many SSs made more plays in less innings than Jete?

    Y Escobar  3012 in 5865  +436 in about 200 less innings

    JJ Hardy    2922 in 5648  +246 in about 400 less innings

    E Aybar      2812 in 5605  +236 in about 450 less innings

    A Ramirez  2736 in 5497  +160 in about 550 less innings

    Rollins       2671 in 5848   +95  in about 300 less innings 

    Tulow        2643 in 4835   +67 in about 1,200 less innings

    E Andrus   2610 in 5123   +34 in about 900 less innings



    in just 1 game (9 innings) one SS may only have 3 balls hit in his area and another SS may have 10... So over 300 games its easy to think that one SS may have a crapload more opportunities in the same amount of innings. which is why in this case the number of innings played means as much as the brand of shoes the player is wearing... give me some context Moon!! :p

     
  6. This post has been removed.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I get where your coming from but i disagree with your assumption that Drew's offense will suffer with a pin in his foot. 

    I meant to say "average fielder is being generous..."



    Have you ever actually seen Drew play when healthy? 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    in just 1 game (9 innings) one SS may only have 3 balls hit in his area and another SS may have 10... So over 300 games its easy to think that one SS may have a crapload more opportunities in the same amount of innings. which is why in this case the number of innings played means as much as the brand of shoes the player is wearing... give me some context Moon!! :p

     

    UZR/150 attempts to answer your context question, but many here discount that metric.

    Of course the numbers are not to be looked at in a vacumn. I said there are many variables, but I have played the game of baseball for over 2 decades. and I know how much of a difference a great fielding SS make in a game. It is hard to measure, but it is very real. It is as true as the sun is bright.

    Also, why not ask for all the variables be accounted for in each offensive statistic as well?  How do we know if a lot of Drew's hits were a result of luck and hard to quantify variables, while many of Iggy's outs were bad luck and hard to quantify variables? Show me some context! :p

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    I get where your coming from but i disagree with your assumption that Drew's offense will suffer with a pin in his foot. 

    I meant to say "average fielder is being generous..."

     



    Have you ever actually seen Drew play when healthy? 

     



    Yes, several times. He was a pretty good fielder before the pin in the ankle.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    I get where your coming from but i disagree with your assumption that Drew's offense will suffer with a pin in his foot. 

    I meant to say "average fielder is being generous..."

     



    Have you ever actually seen Drew play when healthy? 

     

     



    Yes, several times. He was a pretty good fielder before the pin in the ankle.

     



    Well, he's supposedly fully healthy again (he definitely looks like he's at 100%), so maybe your "average defender" isn't so "generous."  Ask any pitcher who he'd rather have behind him at SS, a Julio Lugo type with the "wow" sabermetric range, or a Derek Jeter type, who the "stat" guys shred...   

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    I get where your coming from but i disagree with your assumption that Drew's offense will suffer with a pin in his foot. 

    I meant to say "average fielder is being generous..."

     



    Have you ever actually seen Drew play when healthy? 

     

     



    Yes, several times. He was a pretty good fielder before the pin in the ankle.

     

     



    Well, he's supposedly fully healthy again (he definitely looks like he's at 100%), so maybe your "average defender" isn't so "generous."  Ask any pitcher who he'd rather have behind him at SS, a Julio Lugo type with the "wow" sabermetric range, or a Derek Jeter type, who the "stat" guys shred...   

     



    On defense? Any true baseball mind would take the healthy Lugo over Jete. Many here only remember the hobbled Julio.

    Drew may be "healthy", but I'm pretty sure his range will be effected by the pin in his ankle. Even if he gets to 95%, Iggy's range might be top 3 in MLB.

    Same goes for JBJ in CF. Jacoby still gets late breaks on balls, takes the wrong track, but since he won the GG, everyone assumes JBJ can not be better. I can't speak from much personal observation on JBJ, but from what I hear, he is a stud on D with incredible instincts and awesome range.

    Give us Iggy at SS and JBJ in CF, and add to that SV in RF instead of Ross, and a healthy Middlebrooks at 3B instead of Youk and Punto our team ERA might go down a run all by itself.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    Unfortunately this is pure hypotheticals, because there are no measures for 'hits saved'. 

    If you want to do a fair comparison why not use some real data, like comparing WAR for a good hit no field SS (Jeter) to a good field no hit SS.



    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=5,d

                                               JJ hardy VS Jeter in 2012

                              Batting                            Fielding                      WAR
    JJ Hardy        -16.4 (18 of 19)                  11.4 (1 of 19)           2.8 (11 of 19)

    Jeter               16.9 (3 of 19)                  -15.2 (19 of 19)          3.2 (8 of 19)

     

    pretty close, hard to say which type of SS is better..

     



    Good start though, mef, thanks.

     

     



    i just started a new thread on this subject and included data from a 5 year period. check it out.

     

     



    Here's some 5 year numbers:

     

    Jeter made 2576 plays in 6056 innings (most innings by a SS from 08-12).

    Look how many SSs made more plays in less innings than Jete?

    Y Escobar  3012 in 5865  +436 in about 200 less innings

    JJ Hardy    2922 in 5648  +246 in about 400 less innings

    E Aybar      2812 in 5605  +236 in about 450 less innings

    A Ramirez  2736 in 5497  +160 in about 550 less innings

    Rollins       2671 in 5848   +95  in about 300 less innings 

    Tulow        2643 in 4835   +67 in about 1,200 less innings

    E Andrus   2610 in 5123   +34 in about 900 less innings

     



    in just 1 game (9 innings) one SS may only have 3 balls hit in his area and another SS may have 10... So over 300 games its easy to think that one SS may have a crapload more opportunities in the same amount of innings. which is why in this case the number of innings played means as much as the brand of shoes the player is wearing... give me some context Moon!! :p

     




    This is where looking at just numbers that can be very misleading. There can be a number of factors that can lead to some mis understanding or interpretation of these numbers for example:

    1. Jeter has a SS playing next to him @ 3B in Arod over the years, how many balls could Arod be cutting off that most typical 3B wouldn't? As RS fans we saw how limited Youk was in range to his left. Jeter also has a very athletic 2B on his otherside.

    2. GB vs FB pitchers maybe some staffs have more FB pitchers w/ higher ratio's than  other staffs tough to judge w/out taking these #'s in account also.

    3. Pitching staff's w/ high K rates, and Yanks staff is always near the top in K's. Thats lots of outs from balls not even put in play.

    4. Lower staff era. Yanks staff generally speaking has been one of the best during Jeters time in bigs. The lower the staff era the fewer baserunners and the fewer AB's for opponents. These are all factors that need to be considered when just using assists in determining how gifted a fielder is.

    5. Errors- Jeter makes all the routine plays, while at 38 he might not have the range he once did, he does not botch up the routine play. How many times have I watched some of these guys you are rating as great SS due to assist #'s botch up the routine play w/ bases loaded and let a game get away, this never happens w/ Jeter

    6. The eye ball test. Being here in CT and watching YES all these yrs [don't get NESN] here. I've watched Jeter play his entire career. Has he lost some range at the age of 38 of course. But let me say this about Jeter he always makes the routine play, very good to his right going into the hole. If he has a weak spot its balls to his left or up the middle. But during the course of a weeks worth of games there might be 1 or even 2 plays you might say someone else might have gotten its not that many. Jeter could play SS on my team anytime, he's one of the all time greats.

    There are so much more that goes in fielding than just assists and putouts. Its like saying a hitter is great because he has a ton of rbi's. You don't win a ton of playoff games and WS's w/ a terrible fielding SS. While Jeter has never been a rangey SS, calling him a terrible fielder is a big mis conception from people who only look at certain stats and have not watched him play day in and day out. As a RS fan I have a great amount of respect for Jeter, and tired of RS fans who claim he is a terrible fielding SS and have not watched him play day in and day out, if hey did they would not make this claim.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to garyhow's comment:

     

    This is where looking at just numbers that can be very misleading. There can be a number of factors that can lead to some mis understanding or interpretation of these numbers for example:

    1. Jeter has a SS playing next to him @ 3B in Arod over the years, how many balls could Arod be cutting off that most typical 3B wouldn't? As RS fans we saw how limited Youk was in range to his left. Jeter also has a very athletic 2B on his otherside.

    2. GB vs FB pitchers maybe some staffs have more FB pitchers w/ higher ratio's than  other staffs tough to judge w/out taking these #'s in account also.

    3. Pitching staff's w/ high K rates, and Yanks staff is always near the top in K's. Thats lots of outs from balls not even put in play.

    4. Lower staff era. Yanks staff generally speaking has been one of the best during Jeters time in bigs. The lower the staff era the fewer baserunners and the fewer AB's for opponents. These are all factors that need to be considered when just using assists in determining how gifted a fielder is.

    5. Errors- Jeter makes all the routine plays, while at 38 he might not have the range he once did, he does not botch up the routine play. How many times have I watched some of these guys you are rating as great SS due to assist #'s botch up the routine play w/ bases loaded and let a game get away, this never happens w/ Jeter

    6. The eye ball test. Being here in CT and watching YES all these yrs [don't get NESN] here. I've watched Jeter play his entire career. Has he lost some range at the age of 38 of course. But let me say this about Jeter he always makes the routine play, very good to his right going into the hole. If he has a weak spot its balls to his left or up the middle. But during the course of a weeks worth of games there might be 1 or even 2 plays you might say someone else might have gotten its not that many. Jeter could play SS on my team anytime, he's one of the all time greats.

    There are so much more that goes in fielding than just assists and putouts. Its like saying a hitter is great because he has a ton of rbi's. You don't win a ton of playoff games and WS's w/ a terrible fielding SS. While Jeter has never been a rangey SS, calling him a terrible fielder is a big mis conception from people who only look at certain stats and have not watched him play day in and day out. As a RS fan I have a great amount of respect for Jeter, and tired of RS fans who claim he is a terrible fielding SS and have not watched him play day in and day out, if hey did they would not make this claim.



    thanks for the stand up post  garyhow

    he does not botch up the routine play. How many times have I watched some of these guys you are rating as great SS due to assist #'s botch up the routine play w/ bases loaded and let a game get away, this never happens w/ Jeter

    bingo

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

     

    Drew isn't a better "overall SS" than any but the very worst SS's.

     




    Of course. Because before his horrible ankle break he was about an .800 OPS MLB SS...How many of them are there again? Hint: there wasnt 3 last year...4 in 2011...and in 2010 there were 3 with Drew placing...Drew had the 3rd highest OPS in MLB before his injury...yeah, hes one of the worst...He was also 9th in 2009 and 2nd in 2008...

     

    Is a he a GG ss? No, but hes hardly even close to a liability. Actually underrated if you ask me.

    That certainly doesnt qualify his as one of the worst SS...

     

     

    There was a guy who covers the D-Backs on WEEI who also said his defense was very underrated.  He said he always seems to position himself correctly, he steals a lot of bloop hits in the outfield because he has that same ability to immediately read the ball off the bat like his brother did and he makes all the routine plays look easy.  If he is as healthy as he says he is, he should be a plus defender at SS...




    He has a bad UZR because of range...Drew doesnt have great range, but like you said, Hes a smart player that can position himself correctly and quickly read the ball off the bat. Thats why Im not a huge fan of that stat.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    This is where looking at just numbers that can be very misleading. There can be a number of factors that can lead to some mis understanding or interpretation of these numbers for example:

    1. Jeter has a SS playing next to him @ 3B in Arod over the years, how many balls could Arod be cutting off that most typical 3B wouldn't? As RS fans we saw how limited Youk was in range to his left. Jeter also has a very athletic 2B on his otherside.

    Jeter is one of the worst fielding SSs zI have ever seen in the past decade. To blame it on plays stolen by ARod and Cano is ludicrous.

     

    2. GB vs FB pitchers maybe some staffs have more FB pitchers w/ higher ratio's than  other staffs tough to judge w/out taking these #'s in account also.

    UZR/150 measures how many balls are hit in his area vs how many plays he makes. It is not effected by one guy getting 50 balls hit to him vs Jeter 25. Jeter consistently is at or near the bottom in UZR 150 the last 10 years, including his latter GG years..

     

    3. Pitching staff's w/ high K rates, and Yanks staff is always near the top in K's. Thats lots of outs from balls not even put in play.

    See above.

     

    4. Lower staff era. Yanks staff generally speaking has been one of the best during Jeters time in bigs. The lower the staff era the fewer baserunners and the fewer AB's for opponents. These are all factors that need to be considered when just using assists in determining how gifted a fielder is.

    Look at WHIP not ERA for numbers of baserunners. They were 5th out of 14 AL teams over the last decade at 1.34. The median team was at 1.36. That's an o.o2 differential between 5th and average--hardly an excuse.

     

    5. Errors- Jeter makes all the routine plays, while at 38 he might not have the range he once did, he does not botch up the routine play. How many times have I watched some of these guys you are rating as great SS due to assist #'s botch up the routine play w/ bases loaded and let a game get away, this never happens w/ Jeter

    I'll take 10-15 more botched routine plays over a season, if I get 100+ more outs with superior range. Jet's range is about as far as his body length in either direction.

     

    6. The eye ball test. Being here in CT and watching YES all these yrs [don't get NESN] here. I've watched Jeter play his entire career. Has he lost some range at the age of 38 of course. But let me say this about Jeter he always makes the routine play, very good to his right going into the hole. If he has a weak spot its balls to his left or up the middle. But during the course of a weeks worth of games there might be 1 or even 2 plays you might say someone else might have gotten its not that many. Jeter could play SS on my team anytime, he's one of the all time greats.

    He never had even good range when younger. He has lost a lot since then. He's the worst right now. The Yanks have the second worst team RngR factor over the last decade at -93.4.

    There are 50 MLb SSs with over 1000 innings over the last decade...50! Guess where Jeter places on RngR? Yes, NUMBER 50!  You really think all the above factors would even bring him up to average?

    There are so much more that goes in fielding than just assists and putouts.

    It's about 98% of a SSs game, but I will grant you that Jeter has a great cutoff arm and on the field leadership abilities.

     

    Its like saying a hitter is great because he has a ton of rbi's. You don't win a ton of playoff games and WS's w/ a terrible fielding SS. While Jeter has never been a rangey SS, calling him a terrible fielder is a big mis conception from people who only look at certain stats and have not watched him play day in and day out.

    It's not a miscvonception: Jeter is the worst fielding SS over the last decade. Nobody else with a large enough sample size is even close. There is ample evidence to back this up, and I have seen him play over 200 games.

    As a RS fan I have a great amount of respect for Jeter, and tired of RS fans who claim he is a terrible fielding SS and have not watched him play day in and day out, if hey did they would not make this claim.

    It's not about me being a Sox fan. I have ripped many a Sox SS for poor range as well, and I have praised many a Yankee for great fielding as well.

    Jeter's offense, leadership skills, and other intangibles makes him a plus SS, even at this age, but he clearly is the worst fielding SS over the last 5 years, and to me, even 10 years.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    He has a bad UZR because of range...Drew doesnt have great range, but like you said, Hes a smart player that can position himself correctly and quickly read the ball off the bat. Thats why Im not a huge fan of that stat.

    Great positioning and instincts will show up in UZR.

    UZR factors out one player getting more or less balls hit to him than  others. 

    None of us watch every play of every game, so trusting UZR is better than trusting personal observations of some players for only a handful of games a season.

    UZR is not perfect, but it is better than RF/9, Fldg%, or one person's opinion based on watching 160 games of one team and a handful or two of other teams.

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to garyhow's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    Unfortunately this is pure hypotheticals, because there are no measures for 'hits saved'. 

    If you want to do a fair comparison why not use some real data, like comparing WAR for a good hit no field SS (Jeter) to a good field no hit SS.



    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=5,d

                                               JJ hardy VS Jeter in 2012

                              Batting                            Fielding                      WAR
    JJ Hardy        -16.4 (18 of 19)                  11.4 (1 of 19)           2.8 (11 of 19)

    Jeter               16.9 (3 of 19)                  -15.2 (19 of 19)          3.2 (8 of 19)

     

    pretty close, hard to say which type of SS is better..

     



    Good start though, mef, thanks.

     

     



    i just started a new thread on this subject and included data from a 5 year period. check it out.

     

     



    Here's some 5 year numbers:

     

    Jeter made 2576 plays in 6056 innings (most innings by a SS from 08-12).

    Look how many SSs made more plays in less innings than Jete?

    Y Escobar  3012 in 5865  +436 in about 200 less innings

    JJ Hardy    2922 in 5648  +246 in about 400 less innings

    E Aybar      2812 in 5605  +236 in about 450 less innings

    A Ramirez  2736 in 5497  +160 in about 550 less innings

    Rollins       2671 in 5848   +95  in about 300 less innings 

    Tulow        2643 in 4835   +67 in about 1,200 less innings

    E Andrus   2610 in 5123   +34 in about 900 less innings

     



    in just 1 game (9 innings) one SS may only have 3 balls hit in his area and another SS may have 10... So over 300 games its easy to think that one SS may have a crapload more opportunities in the same amount of innings. which is why in this case the number of innings played means as much as the brand of shoes the player is wearing... give me some context Moon!! :p

     

     




     

    This is where looking at just numbers that can be very misleading. There can be a number of factors that can lead to some mis understanding or interpretation of these numbers for example:

    1. Jeter has a SS playing next to him @ 3B in Arod over the years, how many balls could Arod be cutting off that most typical 3B wouldn't? As RS fans we saw how limited Youk was in range to his left. Jeter also has a very athletic 2B on his otherside.

    2. GB vs FB pitchers maybe some staffs have more FB pitchers w/ higher ratio's than  other staffs tough to judge w/out taking these #'s in account also.

    3. Pitching staff's w/ high K rates, and Yanks staff is always near the top in K's. Thats lots of outs from balls not even put in play.

    4. Lower staff era. Yanks staff generally speaking has been one of the best during Jeters time in bigs. The lower the staff era the fewer baserunners and the fewer AB's for opponents. These are all factors that need to be considered when just using assists in determining how gifted a fielder is.

    5. Errors- Jeter makes all the routine plays, while at 38 he might not have the range he once did, he does not botch up the routine play. How many times have I watched some of these guys you are rating as great SS due to assist #'s botch up the routine play w/ bases loaded and let a game get away, this never happens w/ Jeter

    6. The eye ball test. Being here in CT and watching YES all these yrs [don't get NESN] here. I've watched Jeter play his entire career. Has he lost some range at the age of 38 of course. But let me say this about Jeter he always makes the routine play, very good to his right going into the hole. If he has a weak spot its balls to his left or up the middle. But during the course of a weeks worth of games there might be 1 or even 2 plays you might say someone else might have gotten its not that many. Jeter could play SS on my team anytime, he's one of the all time greats.

    There are so much more that goes in fielding than just assists and putouts. Its like saying a hitter is great because he has a ton of rbi's. You don't win a ton of playoff games and WS's w/ a terrible fielding SS. While Jeter has never been a rangey SS, calling him a terrible fielder is a big mis conception from people who only look at certain stats and have not watched him play day in and day out. As a RS fan I have a great amount of respect for Jeter, and tired of RS fans who claim he is a terrible fielding SS and have not watched him play day in and day out, if hey did they would not make this claim.



    Excellent post...stats can be manipulated a thousand different ways, but if you asked every coach and manager in baseball, they'd take Jeter as their SS all day long.  

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    This is where looking at just numbers that can be very misleading. There can be a number of factors that can lead to some mis understanding or interpretation of these numbers for example:

    1. Jeter has a SS playing next to him @ 3B in Arod over the years, how many balls could Arod be cutting off that most typical 3B wouldn't? As RS fans we saw how limited Youk was in range to his left. Jeter also has a very athletic 2B on his otherside.

    Jeter is one of the worst fielding SSs zI have ever seen in the past decade. To blame it on plays stolen by ARod and Cano is ludicrous.



    The Sox play the Yankees 18 times this year.  Most of us will be watching most of these games.  Somebody should keep track of the plays in Jeter's area for those games.

    Like I always say, show me the plays you're talking about if you want to convince me. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    This is where looking at just numbers that can be very misleading. There can be a number of factors that can lead to some mis understanding or interpretation of these numbers for example:

    1. Jeter has a SS playing next to him @ 3B in Arod over the years, how many balls could Arod be cutting off that most typical 3B wouldn't? As RS fans we saw how limited Youk was in range to his left. Jeter also has a very athletic 2B on his otherside.

    Jeter is one of the worst fielding SSs zI have ever seen in the past decade. To blame it on plays stolen by ARod and Cano is ludicrous.

     



    The Sox play the Yankees 18 times this year.  Most of us will be watching most of these games.  Somebody should keep track of the plays in Jeter's area for those games.

     

    Like I always say, show me the plays you're talking about if you want to convince me. 




    we can all agree that Jeter has the worst RANGE of any SS but he is definitely not the worst FIELDING SS. there is much more to it than just getting to a ball.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    This is where looking at just numbers that can be very misleading. There can be a number of factors that can lead to some mis understanding or interpretation of these numbers for example:

    1. Jeter has a SS playing next to him @ 3B in Arod over the years, how many balls could Arod be cutting off that most typical 3B wouldn't? As RS fans we saw how limited Youk was in range to his left. Jeter also has a very athletic 2B on his otherside.

    Jeter is one of the worst fielding SSs zI have ever seen in the past decade. To blame it on plays stolen by ARod and Cano is ludicrous.

     



    The Sox play the Yankees 18 times this year.  Most of us will be watching most of these games.  Somebody should keep track of the plays in Jeter's area for those games.

     

    Like I always say, show me the plays you're talking about if you want to convince me. 



              I find it difficult to knock Jeter. Class act and future HOF'er.

              That said his defense for the past few years has declined to the point he no longer is capable of making needed plays. He still goes to his right ok but no range at all to his glove side. Which I can't explain because that is the easier play for most.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

     

    Excellent post...stats can be manipulated a thousand different ways, but if you asked every coach and manager in baseball, they'd take Jeter as their SS all day long.  

     

     



    Dude, we are talking fielding SSs- not overall SSs. 

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    we can all agree that Jeter has the worst RANGE of any SS but he is definitely not the worst FIELDING SS. there is much more to it than just getting to a ball.

     

    So, if Jeter makes 5-25 less errors than the most of rest of the ML SSs, are you saying that makes up for 30-150 less plays made due to severely limited range?

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    we can all agree that Jeter has the worst RANGE of any SS but he is definitely not the worst FIELDING SS. there is much more to it than just getting to a ball.

     

    So, if Jeter makes 5-25 less errors than the most of rest of the ML SSs, are you saying that makes up for 30-150 less plays made due to severely limited range?




    30-150 is a pretty wide margin to give a definitive answer. My answer would likely be no though. but like i said earlier, without knowing how many opportunities Jeter gets as opposed to the top fielding SSs it's hard to say for sure.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Excellent post...stats can be manipulated a thousand different ways, but if you asked every coach and manager in baseball, they'd take Jeter as their SS all day long.  

     

     



    Dude, we are talking fielding SSs- not overall SSs. 

     



    So am I...defensive sabermetrics aren't flawed?  Are you serious?  I'm not saying Jeter was ever Ozzie Smith with his glove, but ask some coaches and managers what they think of his defense over the years.  He's obviously older now, but try to find someone who's coached him or played with him who thought he was a below average defender, especially when the game was on the line.  

     
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