Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to garyhow's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    Unfortunately this is pure hypotheticals, because there are no measures for 'hits saved'. 

    If you want to do a fair comparison why not use some real data, like comparing WAR for a good hit no field SS (Jeter) to a good field no hit SS.



    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=5,d

                                               JJ hardy VS Jeter in 2012

                              Batting                            Fielding                      WAR
    JJ Hardy        -16.4 (18 of 19)                  11.4 (1 of 19)           2.8 (11 of 19)

    Jeter               16.9 (3 of 19)                  -15.2 (19 of 19)          3.2 (8 of 19)

     

    pretty close, hard to say which type of SS is better..

     



    Good start though, mef, thanks.

     

     



    i just started a new thread on this subject and included data from a 5 year period. check it out.

     

     



    Here's some 5 year numbers:

     

    Jeter made 2576 plays in 6056 innings (most innings by a SS from 08-12).

    Look how many SSs made more plays in less innings than Jete?

    Y Escobar  3012 in 5865  +436 in about 200 less innings

    JJ Hardy    2922 in 5648  +246 in about 400 less innings

    E Aybar      2812 in 5605  +236 in about 450 less innings

    A Ramirez  2736 in 5497  +160 in about 550 less innings

    Rollins       2671 in 5848   +95  in about 300 less innings 

    Tulow        2643 in 4835   +67 in about 1,200 less innings

    E Andrus   2610 in 5123   +34 in about 900 less innings

     



    in just 1 game (9 innings) one SS may only have 3 balls hit in his area and another SS may have 10... So over 300 games its easy to think that one SS may have a crapload more opportunities in the same amount of innings. which is why in this case the number of innings played means as much as the brand of shoes the player is wearing... give me some context Moon!! :p

     

     




     

    This is where looking at just numbers that can be very misleading. There can be a number of factors that can lead to some mis understanding or interpretation of these numbers for example:

    1. Jeter has a SS playing next to him @ 3B in Arod over the years, how many balls could Arod be cutting off that most typical 3B wouldn't? As RS fans we saw how limited Youk was in range to his left. Jeter also has a very athletic 2B on his otherside.

    2. GB vs FB pitchers maybe some staffs have more FB pitchers w/ higher ratio's than  other staffs tough to judge w/out taking these #'s in account also.

    3. Pitching staff's w/ high K rates, and Yanks staff is always near the top in K's. Thats lots of outs from balls not even put in play.

    4. Lower staff era. Yanks staff generally speaking has been one of the best during Jeters time in bigs. The lower the staff era the fewer baserunners and the fewer AB's for opponents. These are all factors that need to be considered when just using assists in determining how gifted a fielder is.

    5. Errors- Jeter makes all the routine plays, while at 38 he might not have the range he once did, he does not botch up the routine play. How many times have I watched some of these guys you are rating as great SS due to assist #'s botch up the routine play w/ bases loaded and let a game get away, this never happens w/ Jeter

    6. The eye ball test. Being here in CT and watching YES all these yrs [don't get NESN] here. I've watched Jeter play his entire career. Has he lost some range at the age of 38 of course. But let me say this about Jeter he always makes the routine play, very good to his right going into the hole. If he has a weak spot its balls to his left or up the middle. But during the course of a weeks worth of games there might be 1 or even 2 plays you might say someone else might have gotten its not that many. Jeter could play SS on my team anytime, he's one of the all time greats.

    There are so much more that goes in fielding than just assists and putouts. Its like saying a hitter is great because he has a ton of rbi's. You don't win a ton of playoff games and WS's w/ a terrible fielding SS. While Jeter has never been a rangey SS, calling him a terrible fielder is a big mis conception from people who only look at certain stats and have not watched him play day in and day out. As a RS fan I have a great amount of respect for Jeter, and tired of RS fans who claim he is a terrible fielding SS and have not watched him play day in and day out, if hey did they would not make this claim.



    Excellent post...stats can be manipulated a thousand different ways, but if you asked every coach and manager in baseball, they'd take Jeter as their SS all day long.  

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    This is where looking at just numbers that can be very misleading. There can be a number of factors that can lead to some mis understanding or interpretation of these numbers for example:

    1. Jeter has a SS playing next to him @ 3B in Arod over the years, how many balls could Arod be cutting off that most typical 3B wouldn't? As RS fans we saw how limited Youk was in range to his left. Jeter also has a very athletic 2B on his otherside.

    Jeter is one of the worst fielding SSs zI have ever seen in the past decade. To blame it on plays stolen by ARod and Cano is ludicrous.



    The Sox play the Yankees 18 times this year.  Most of us will be watching most of these games.  Somebody should keep track of the plays in Jeter's area for those games.

    Like I always say, show me the plays you're talking about if you want to convince me. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    This is where looking at just numbers that can be very misleading. There can be a number of factors that can lead to some mis understanding or interpretation of these numbers for example:

    1. Jeter has a SS playing next to him @ 3B in Arod over the years, how many balls could Arod be cutting off that most typical 3B wouldn't? As RS fans we saw how limited Youk was in range to his left. Jeter also has a very athletic 2B on his otherside.

    Jeter is one of the worst fielding SSs zI have ever seen in the past decade. To blame it on plays stolen by ARod and Cano is ludicrous.

     



    The Sox play the Yankees 18 times this year.  Most of us will be watching most of these games.  Somebody should keep track of the plays in Jeter's area for those games.

     

    Like I always say, show me the plays you're talking about if you want to convince me. 




    we can all agree that Jeter has the worst RANGE of any SS but he is definitely not the worst FIELDING SS. there is much more to it than just getting to a ball.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    This is where looking at just numbers that can be very misleading. There can be a number of factors that can lead to some mis understanding or interpretation of these numbers for example:

    1. Jeter has a SS playing next to him @ 3B in Arod over the years, how many balls could Arod be cutting off that most typical 3B wouldn't? As RS fans we saw how limited Youk was in range to his left. Jeter also has a very athletic 2B on his otherside.

    Jeter is one of the worst fielding SSs zI have ever seen in the past decade. To blame it on plays stolen by ARod and Cano is ludicrous.

     



    The Sox play the Yankees 18 times this year.  Most of us will be watching most of these games.  Somebody should keep track of the plays in Jeter's area for those games.

     

    Like I always say, show me the plays you're talking about if you want to convince me. 



              I find it difficult to knock Jeter. Class act and future HOF'er.

              That said his defense for the past few years has declined to the point he no longer is capable of making needed plays. He still goes to his right ok but no range at all to his glove side. Which I can't explain because that is the easier play for most.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

     

    Excellent post...stats can be manipulated a thousand different ways, but if you asked every coach and manager in baseball, they'd take Jeter as their SS all day long.  

     

     



    Dude, we are talking fielding SSs- not overall SSs. 

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    we can all agree that Jeter has the worst RANGE of any SS but he is definitely not the worst FIELDING SS. there is much more to it than just getting to a ball.

     

    So, if Jeter makes 5-25 less errors than the most of rest of the ML SSs, are you saying that makes up for 30-150 less plays made due to severely limited range?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    we can all agree that Jeter has the worst RANGE of any SS but he is definitely not the worst FIELDING SS. there is much more to it than just getting to a ball.

     

    So, if Jeter makes 5-25 less errors than the most of rest of the ML SSs, are you saying that makes up for 30-150 less plays made due to severely limited range?




    30-150 is a pretty wide margin to give a definitive answer. My answer would likely be no though. but like i said earlier, without knowing how many opportunities Jeter gets as opposed to the top fielding SSs it's hard to say for sure.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Excellent post...stats can be manipulated a thousand different ways, but if you asked every coach and manager in baseball, they'd take Jeter as their SS all day long.  

     

     



    Dude, we are talking fielding SSs- not overall SSs. 

     



    So am I...defensive sabermetrics aren't flawed?  Are you serious?  I'm not saying Jeter was ever Ozzie Smith with his glove, but ask some coaches and managers what they think of his defense over the years.  He's obviously older now, but try to find someone who's coached him or played with him who thought he was a below average defender, especially when the game was on the line.  

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Excellent post...stats can be manipulated a thousand different ways, but if you asked every coach and manager in baseball, they'd take Jeter as their SS all day long.  

     

     



    Dude, we are talking fielding SSs- not overall SSs. 

     



    I'm guessing the poster is too

    is it not the coaches and managers

    who vote for the GG

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

     

    Excellent post...stats can be manipulated a thousand different ways, but if you asked every coach and manager in baseball, they'd take Jeter as their SS all day long.  

     

     



    Dude, we are talking fielding SSs- not overall SSs. 

     

     



    I'm guessing the poster is too

    is it not the coaches and managers

    who vote for the GG

     



    Yeah, they never ever fill in a name based on rep alone.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

     

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

     

    Excellent post...stats can be manipulated a thousand different ways, but if you asked every coach and manager in baseball, they'd take Jeter as their SS all day long.  

     

     



    Dude, we are talking fielding SSs- not overall SSs. 

     

     



    I'm guessing the poster is too

    is it not the coaches and managers

    who vote for the GG

     

     

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    Yeah, they never ever fill in a name based on rep alone.

     

    do they ever ever fill in a name based on a bad rep alone

    how does one get a rep

     

    besides the point of me bring up the GG  has nothing to with whether they were right or not

    I was only supporing jasko comment that moon tried to debunk

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

     

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

     

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

     

    Excellent post...stats can be manipulated a thousand different ways, but if you asked every coach and manager in baseball, they'd take Jeter as their SS all day long.  

     

     



    Dude, we are talking fielding SSs- not overall SSs. 

     

     



    I'm guessing the poster is too

    is it not the coaches and managers

    who vote for the GG

     

     

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    Yeah, they never ever fill in a name based on rep alone.

     

    do they ever ever fill in a name based on a bad rep alone

    how does one get a rep

     

    besides the point of me bring up the GG  has nothing to with whether they were right or not

    I was only supporing jasko comment that moon tried to debunk

     



    You've GOT to be kidding...

    Jeter was an above average defender, when he was younger.

    But, this discussion isn't about how he played 15 years ago.

    GGs don't even belong in the discussion.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    we can all agree that Jeter has the worst RANGE of any SS but he is definitely not the worst FIELDING SS. there is much more to it than just getting to a ball.

     

    So, if Jeter makes 5-25 less errors than the most of rest of the ML SSs, are you saying that makes up for 30-150 less plays made due to severely limited range?

     




    30-150 is a pretty wide margin to give a definitive answer. My answer would likely be no though. but like i said earlier, without knowing how many opportunities Jeter gets as opposed to the top fielding SSs it's hard to say for sure.

     

     



    How's this 20 less error and 40 less plays made. Assuming the same exact amount and difficulty of plays.

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    Anyone who calls Jeter a terrible fielding SS has not watched Jeter play his entire career as I have. Til recently I watched more Mets / Yanks games than RS games because of where I live. Bottom line is he makes all the plays, if you watch 20 games you might see 3-4 balls you say another SS might have gotten to. But he always makes the the plays. In all the years he's played vs RS [18 games +] can't remember him making a big error that gave us a game, could be wrong, but thats alot of games. Do remember Jeter diving into the stands to help win a game, while Nomar sulked on the bench? Have to also think his assists/PO #'s could also be low due to park he plays in. Think that most players even RH's like going for that short RF porch in Yankee stadium. Would like to know what Tex's and Cano assists/PO's are vs rest of league, might find a trend there?

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    So am I...defensive sabermetrics aren't flawed?  Are you serious?  I'm not saying Jeter was ever Ozzie Smith with his glove, but ask some coaches and managers what they think of his defense over the years.  He's obviously older now, but try to find someone who's coached him or played with him who thought he was a below average defender, especially when the game was on the line

    Find any coach that has ever said any of his player stink on defense.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    do they ever ever fill in a name based on a bad rep alone

    how does one get a rep

     

    They once filled in a name of a player who played only 10 games at his position that year, so what does that tell you about  "rep".

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    But he always makes the the plays. 

     

    It's about the hundreds of plays he doesn't make that you must not notice.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    So am I...defensive sabermetrics aren't flawed?  Are you serious?  I'm not saying Jeter was ever Ozzie Smith with his glove, but ask some coaches and managers what they think of his defense over the years.  He's obviously older now, but try to find someone who's coached him or played with him who thought he was a below average defender, especially when the game was on the line

    Find any coach that has ever said any of his player stink on defense.



    I'll find a thousand coaches who will say "player A" was below average defensively.  I could find a bunch of player quotes calling "themselves" bad defensively.  Find me "one" who will agree with you that Jeter was a below average defender.  Good luck with that.  "Stats" are okay in moderation, but they never tell the whole story.  

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    But he always makes the the plays. 

     

    It's about the hundreds of plays he doesn't make that you must not notice.




    How many games do you watch Jeter play every year. Would be willing to bet I've seen a lot more than you. Probably thousands, unless you've had YES the past 16 years.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    But he always makes the the plays. 

     

    It's about the hundreds of plays he doesn't make that you must not notice.



    Can you remember any specific plays in games vs. the Red Sox that led to Red Sox runs?

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    we can all agree that Jeter has the worst RANGE of any SS but he is definitely not the worst FIELDING SS. there is much more to it than just getting to a ball.

     

    So, if Jeter makes 5-25 less errors than the most of rest of the ML SSs, are you saying that makes up for 30-150 less plays made due to severely limited range?

     




    30-150 is a pretty wide margin to give a definitive answer. My answer would likely be no though. but like i said earlier, without knowing how many opportunities Jeter gets as opposed to the top fielding SSs it's hard to say for sure.

     

     



    How's this 20 less error and 40 less plays made. Assuming the same exact amount and difficulty of plays.

     



    then i would say their fielding is about even and go with the SS who gave me more offense.

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    You've GOT to be kidding...

    Jeter was an above average defender, when he was younger.

    not according to moon and other stat geeks


    But, this discussion isn't about how he played 15 years ago.

    GGs don't even belong in the discussion.

    of course they do

    what part of my post explaining why

    I brought GGs up can't you understand

    the topic I was addressing was whether the coaches & mgrs would want him or not

    not whether he was any good or not

    what is it about you that can't admit I have a point

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    Over the last 9 years Jeter has played against the Sox approx. 162 games, a full season.  Surely someone can remember a game when Jeter's fielding issues resulted in a run or more for the Sox that contributed to us winning a game.

     

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