1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Excellent post...stats can be manipulated a thousand different ways, but if you asked every coach and manager in baseball, they'd take Jeter as their SS all day long.  

     

     



    Dude, we are talking fielding SSs- not overall SSs. 

     



    I'm guessing the poster is too

    is it not the coaches and managers

    who vote for the GG

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

     

    Excellent post...stats can be manipulated a thousand different ways, but if you asked every coach and manager in baseball, they'd take Jeter as their SS all day long.  

     

     



    Dude, we are talking fielding SSs- not overall SSs. 

     

     



    I'm guessing the poster is too

    is it not the coaches and managers

    who vote for the GG

     



    Yeah, they never ever fill in a name based on rep alone.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

     

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

     

    Excellent post...stats can be manipulated a thousand different ways, but if you asked every coach and manager in baseball, they'd take Jeter as their SS all day long.  

     

     



    Dude, we are talking fielding SSs- not overall SSs. 

     

     



    I'm guessing the poster is too

    is it not the coaches and managers

    who vote for the GG

     

     

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    Yeah, they never ever fill in a name based on rep alone.

     

    do they ever ever fill in a name based on a bad rep alone

    how does one get a rep

     

    besides the point of me bring up the GG  has nothing to with whether they were right or not

    I was only supporing jasko comment that moon tried to debunk

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

     

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

     

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

     

    Excellent post...stats can be manipulated a thousand different ways, but if you asked every coach and manager in baseball, they'd take Jeter as their SS all day long.  

     

     



    Dude, we are talking fielding SSs- not overall SSs. 

     

     



    I'm guessing the poster is too

    is it not the coaches and managers

    who vote for the GG

     

     

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    Yeah, they never ever fill in a name based on rep alone.

     

    do they ever ever fill in a name based on a bad rep alone

    how does one get a rep

     

    besides the point of me bring up the GG  has nothing to with whether they were right or not

    I was only supporing jasko comment that moon tried to debunk

     



    You've GOT to be kidding...

    Jeter was an above average defender, when he was younger.

    But, this discussion isn't about how he played 15 years ago.

    GGs don't even belong in the discussion.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    we can all agree that Jeter has the worst RANGE of any SS but he is definitely not the worst FIELDING SS. there is much more to it than just getting to a ball.

     

    So, if Jeter makes 5-25 less errors than the most of rest of the ML SSs, are you saying that makes up for 30-150 less plays made due to severely limited range?

     




    30-150 is a pretty wide margin to give a definitive answer. My answer would likely be no though. but like i said earlier, without knowing how many opportunities Jeter gets as opposed to the top fielding SSs it's hard to say for sure.

     

     



    How's this 20 less error and 40 less plays made. Assuming the same exact amount and difficulty of plays.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    Anyone who calls Jeter a terrible fielding SS has not watched Jeter play his entire career as I have. Til recently I watched more Mets / Yanks games than RS games because of where I live. Bottom line is he makes all the plays, if you watch 20 games you might see 3-4 balls you say another SS might have gotten to. But he always makes the the plays. In all the years he's played vs RS [18 games +] can't remember him making a big error that gave us a game, could be wrong, but thats alot of games. Do remember Jeter diving into the stands to help win a game, while Nomar sulked on the bench? Have to also think his assists/PO #'s could also be low due to park he plays in. Think that most players even RH's like going for that short RF porch in Yankee stadium. Would like to know what Tex's and Cano assists/PO's are vs rest of league, might find a trend there?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    So am I...defensive sabermetrics aren't flawed?  Are you serious?  I'm not saying Jeter was ever Ozzie Smith with his glove, but ask some coaches and managers what they think of his defense over the years.  He's obviously older now, but try to find someone who's coached him or played with him who thought he was a below average defender, especially when the game was on the line

    Find any coach that has ever said any of his player stink on defense.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    do they ever ever fill in a name based on a bad rep alone

    how does one get a rep

     

    They once filled in a name of a player who played only 10 games at his position that year, so what does that tell you about  "rep".

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    But he always makes the the plays. 

     

    It's about the hundreds of plays he doesn't make that you must not notice.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    So am I...defensive sabermetrics aren't flawed?  Are you serious?  I'm not saying Jeter was ever Ozzie Smith with his glove, but ask some coaches and managers what they think of his defense over the years.  He's obviously older now, but try to find someone who's coached him or played with him who thought he was a below average defender, especially when the game was on the line

    Find any coach that has ever said any of his player stink on defense.



    I'll find a thousand coaches who will say "player A" was below average defensively.  I could find a bunch of player quotes calling "themselves" bad defensively.  Find me "one" who will agree with you that Jeter was a below average defender.  Good luck with that.  "Stats" are okay in moderation, but they never tell the whole story.  

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    But he always makes the the plays. 

     

    It's about the hundreds of plays he doesn't make that you must not notice.




    How many games do you watch Jeter play every year. Would be willing to bet I've seen a lot more than you. Probably thousands, unless you've had YES the past 16 years.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    But he always makes the the plays. 

     

    It's about the hundreds of plays he doesn't make that you must not notice.



    Can you remember any specific plays in games vs. the Red Sox that led to Red Sox runs?

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    we can all agree that Jeter has the worst RANGE of any SS but he is definitely not the worst FIELDING SS. there is much more to it than just getting to a ball.

     

    So, if Jeter makes 5-25 less errors than the most of rest of the ML SSs, are you saying that makes up for 30-150 less plays made due to severely limited range?

     




    30-150 is a pretty wide margin to give a definitive answer. My answer would likely be no though. but like i said earlier, without knowing how many opportunities Jeter gets as opposed to the top fielding SSs it's hard to say for sure.

     

     



    How's this 20 less error and 40 less plays made. Assuming the same exact amount and difficulty of plays.

     



    then i would say their fielding is about even and go with the SS who gave me more offense.

     
  14. This post has been removed.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    You've GOT to be kidding...

    Jeter was an above average defender, when he was younger.

    not according to moon and other stat geeks


    But, this discussion isn't about how he played 15 years ago.

    GGs don't even belong in the discussion.

    of course they do

    what part of my post explaining why

    I brought GGs up can't you understand

    the topic I was addressing was whether the coaches & mgrs would want him or not

    not whether he was any good or not

    what is it about you that can't admit I have a point

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    Over the last 9 years Jeter has played against the Sox approx. 162 games, a full season.  Surely someone can remember a game when Jeter's fielding issues resulted in a run or more for the Sox that contributed to us winning a game.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Over the last 9 years Jeter has played against the Sox approx. 162 games, a full season. Surely someone can remember a game when Jeter's fielding issues resulted in a run or more for the Sox that contributed to us winning a game.



    The problem with trying to recall a "lack of range" play in which Jeter caused his team some runs defensively is that these plays are ruled as "hits" by the scorer. Therefore, most people watching the game credit the batter with getting a good hit rather than blame Jeter for allowing runs to score. Most people don't even realize that that grounder would have been turned into an out by the majority of the other shortstops.

    It is easy to remember when someone boots a grounder, especially when that booted ball results in runs. Most people are not going to make a mental note of a grounder that made it into the outfield, "past a diving Jeter", that resulted in runs.

    In one study of data from 2003 to 2008, the SS with the highest rate of grounders kept in the infield was Adam Everett at 83.5%. Ramon Vazquez was worst at 76.5%. Jeter was 2nd to last at 77.3%.

    The difference between the best and worst over a season is about 40 hits. So, Jeter has fewer errors than other shortstops, but he is giving up significantly more hits. Just because these plays cannot be easily seen or recalled doesn't mean that they don't exist.

    Moon is spot on in his posts about Jeter's defense. The fact that he makes all the plays that he gets to is biased by the fact that he gets to so few. Even with his sure handedness, he is an overall terrible defensive SS.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    So am I...defensive sabermetrics aren't flawed?  Are you serious?  I'm not saying Jeter was ever Ozzie Smith with his glove, but ask some coaches and managers what they think of his defense over the years.  He's obviously older now, but try to find someone who's coached him or played with him who thought he was a below average defender, especially when the game was on the line

    Find any coach that has ever said any of his player stink on defense.

     



    I'll find a thousand coaches who will say "player A" was below average defensively.  I could find a bunch of player quotes calling "themselves" bad defensively.  Find me "one" who will agree with you that Jeter was a below average defender.  Good luck with that.  "Stats" are okay in moderation, but they never tell the whole story.  

     



    I'm still waiting for a quote of one coach badmouthing a current player's defense. There probably are a handful of quotes about players who know themselves to be poor fielders where a coach might say something like, "he's not a great fielder", but no coach would say anything bad about a HOF player's fzielding while he is still playing for the team.

    Stats are not the only thing telling the whole story. Personal observations and those of the people at the fielding bible as well as other highly regarded baseball people have stated negative things about Jet's fielding. I have watched every inning of over 200 Jeter games. I guess somehow he must magically have better range in the games I don't watch.

    He is horrible at SS right now. He has been horrible for at least 3-4 years and really bad for years before that. Overall, he has been the worst fielding SS over the past 5 years, and the numbers support the fact that he has been the worst over the last 10 years as well.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to garyhow's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    But he always makes the the plays. 

     

    It's about the hundreds of plays he doesn't make that you must not notice.

     




     

    How many games do you watch Jeter play every year. Would be willing to bet I've seen a lot more than you. Probably thousands, unless you've had YES the past 16 years.



    I'm talking comparatively here. I have seen over 200 games by Jeter in the past 10 years, how many games have you seen other SSs play, in order to determine Jeter is not the worst?

    Nobody watches every inning of every MLB baseball game, and that is why the one of us that has clear evidence to support their position, which is me in this case, holds the stronger position. UZR/150 might be flawed, but it can't be that far off. At best he's the 25th worst fielding SS out of the top 30 SSs by innings played over the last 10 years combined.

    I can't name one of these top innings SSs that was a worse fielder than Jeter from 2003-2012, but I'll grant that the numbers might be skewed to hurt Jeter, and maybe he is the 25th worst one... can you name 5 from this list (5000 innings min)?

    Everett, Hardy, Vizquel, Andrus, A Ram, Izturus, Wilson, Rollins, Gonzo, Tulo, Uribe, O Cab, Y Escobar, Bartlett, Crosby, J Reyes, Aybar, Renteria, Lugo, Guzman, Peralta, Tejada, Clayton, Scutaro, Furcal, K Green, Eckstein, Drew,

    Jeter is #29, then

    Berroa is #30, Y Betancourt-31, HanRam-32, and M Young-33.

    If we set the innings at , then we can get to exactly 30 SSs, and these guys come off the list: E Andrus, B Crosby, and R Clayton.

    I wouldn't argue too hard with anyone saying HanRam and Michael Young have been worse than Jeter over the last 10 years combined, and maybe say he's about even with Betancourt, but I can't see how anyone can place him above #27 out of 30 in the field.

    Here's the worst range SSs since 2003 (as based on fangraph's RngR factor):

    33 out of 33: Jeter -92.5

    32 Young  -67.8

    31 Betancourt -43.6

    30 S Drew  -35.1

    29 Peralta  -34.8

    28 HanRam -31.4

     

    Jeter has had a negative RngR in 9 of the 10 past seasons. He was +3.1 in 2009. He has had 4 seasons worse than -11.8. 

     

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Over the last 9 years Jeter has played against the Sox approx. 162 games, a full season. Surely someone can remember a game when Jeter's fielding issues resulted in a run or more for the Sox that contributed to us winning a game.

     



    The problem with trying to recall a "lack of range" play in which Jeter caused his team some runs defensively is that these plays are ruled as "hits" by the scorer. Therefore, most people watching the game credit the batter with getting a good hit rather than blame Jeter for allowing runs to score. Most people don't even realize that that grounder would have been turned into an out by the majority of the other shortstops.

     

    It is easy to remember when someone boots a grounder, especially when that booted ball results in runs. Most people are not going to make a mental note of a grounder that made it into the outfield, "past a diving Jeter", that resulted in runs.

    In one study of data from 2003 to 2008, the SS with the highest rate of grounders kept in the infield was Adam Everett at 83.5%. Ramon Vazquez was worst at 76.5%. Jeter was 2nd to last at 77.3%.

    The difference between the best and worst over a season is about 40 hits. So, Jeter has fewer errors than other shortstops, but he is giving up significantly more hits. Just because these plays cannot be easily seen or recalled doesn't mean that they don't exist.

    Moon is spot on in his posts about Jeter's defense. The fact that he makes all the plays that he gets to is biased by the fact that he gets to so few. Even with his sure handedness, he is an overall terrible defensive SS.




    Great response, but I think your statement I underlined can be more like a 100-120 hits differential between best and worst.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Over the last 9 years Jeter has played against the Sox approx. 162 games, a full season. Surely someone can remember a game when Jeter's fielding issues resulted in a run or more for the Sox that contributed to us winning a game.

     



    The problem with trying to recall a "lack of range" play in which Jeter caused his team some runs defensively is that these plays are ruled as "hits" by the scorer. Therefore, most people watching the game credit the batter with getting a good hit rather than blame Jeter for allowing runs to score. Most people don't even realize that that grounder would have been turned into an out by the majority of the other shortstops.

     

    It is easy to remember when someone boots a grounder, especially when that booted ball results in runs. Most people are not going to make a mental note of a grounder that made it into the outfield, "past a diving Jeter", that resulted in runs.

    In one study of data from 2003 to 2008, the SS with the highest rate of grounders kept in the infield was Adam Everett at 83.5%. Ramon Vazquez was worst at 76.5%. Jeter was 2nd to last at 77.3%.

    The difference between the best and worst over a season is about 40 hits. So, Jeter has fewer errors than other shortstops, but he is giving up significantly more hits. Just because these plays cannot be easily seen or recalled doesn't mean that they don't exist.

    Moon is spot on in his posts about Jeter's defense. The fact that he makes all the plays that he gets to is biased by the fact that he gets to so few. Even with his sure handedness, he is an overall terrible defensive SS.

     



    And yet, the SS parade at Fenway continues. while Jeter is an immortal, admittedly one with limited range, especially to his left. (This yr is bound to be scary worse.) There is more to SS than that, and I'm not talking about the bat.

     The Torre book went into this in detail, which included his limitations.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Over the last 9 years Jeter has played against the Sox approx. 162 games, a full season. Surely someone can remember a game when Jeter's fielding issues resulted in a run or more for the Sox that contributed to us winning a game.

     



    The problem with trying to recall a "lack of range" play in which Jeter caused his team some runs defensively is that these plays are ruled as "hits" by the scorer. Therefore, most people watching the game credit the batter with getting a good hit rather than blame Jeter for allowing runs to score. Most people don't even realize that that grounder would have been turned into an out by the majority of the other shortstops.

     

    It is easy to remember when someone boots a grounder, especially when that booted ball results in runs. Most people are not going to make a mental note of a grounder that made it into the outfield, "past a diving Jeter", that resulted in runs.

    In one study of data from 2003 to 2008, the SS with the highest rate of grounders kept in the infield was Adam Everett at 83.5%. Ramon Vazquez was worst at 76.5%. Jeter was 2nd to last at 77.3%.

    The difference between the best and worst over a season is about 40 hits. So, Jeter has fewer errors than other shortstops, but he is giving up significantly more hits. Just because these plays cannot be easily seen or recalled doesn't mean that they don't exist.

    Moon is spot on in his posts about Jeter's defense. The fact that he makes all the plays that he gets to is biased by the fact that he gets to so few. Even with his sure handedness, he is an overall terrible defensive SS.

     




     

    Great response, but I think your statement I underlined can be more like a 100-120 hits differential between best and worst.



    You mean you wouldn't have liked to have him the past 18 yrs?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    The short-stop situation is a joke. Iggy should have been handed the job right out of the gate. As a few have said nationally the Sox will not make or miss the play-offs based on Iggys offense.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    The short-stop situation is a joke. Iggy should have been handed the job right out of the gate. As a few have said nationally the Sox will not make or miss the play-offs based on Iggys offense.



    Iggy shouldn't be handed anything. make him earn his spot.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Over the last 9 years Jeter has played against the Sox approx. 162 games, a full season. Surely someone can remember a game when Jeter's fielding issues resulted in a run or more for the Sox that contributed to us winning a game.

     



    The problem with trying to recall a "lack of range" play in which Jeter caused his team some runs defensively is that these plays are ruled as "hits" by the scorer. Therefore, most people watching the game credit the batter with getting a good hit rather than blame Jeter for allowing runs to score. Most people don't even realize that that grounder would have been turned into an out by the majority of the other shortstops.

    It is easy to remember when someone boots a grounder, especially when that booted ball results in runs. Most people are not going to make a mental note of a grounder that made it into the outfield, "past a diving Jeter", that resulted in runs.

    In one study of data from 2003 to 2008, the SS with the highest rate of grounders kept in the infield was Adam Everett at 83.5%. Ramon Vazquez was worst at 76.5%. Jeter was 2nd to last at 77.3%.

    The difference between the best and worst over a season is about 40 hits. So, Jeter has fewer errors than other shortstops, but he is giving up significantly more hits. Just because these plays cannot be easily seen or recalled doesn't mean that they don't exist.

    Moon is spot on in his posts about Jeter's defense. The fact that he makes all the plays that he gets to is biased by the fact that he gets to so few. Even with his sure handedness, he is an overall terrible defensive SS.

     




    But Kimmi, moon is the guy who has trotted out the 'just watch the games, it's easy to see' line a few times in this thread.  Here are a few of his statements:

     

    It's not about the numbers. Just watch the game. It is easy to see plays made every game by great-ranged SSs that other SSs can't even make in their dreams. For years I have watched the opponent's SSs make play after play against us that our SSs never make. It may not be easily quantifiable, but it doesn't make it any less real.

    It's about the hundreds of plays he doesn't make that you must not notice.

    It's not a miscvonception: Jeter is the worst fielding SS over the last decade. Nobody else with a large enough sample size is even close. There is ample evidence to back this up, and I have seen him play over 200 games.

    So maybe 'most people' can't see these plays, but moon claims that he does.  So I think it was a fair question to him.

     

     

     
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