1. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

     The Torre book went into this in detail, which included his limitations.

    I didn't read it.

     



    Perhaps, but why discuss this as often as you do?  

    I state what I believe, and this is a hot topic for many posters. I have responded to responses and criticisms of my methodology and beliefs. 

    yes, I have done this more often than I probably should have, but I enjoy talking baseball in my retirement.

     



    OK.

     

     

    And while this is silly, did you know that Strat-O-Matic gave Jeter the highest possible fielding rating for roughly the 1st 10 yrs of his career? They are also very conservative about giving out this rating. Neither here nor there, of course. The only point is, there are two camps regardig him, and while I think the new metrics are flawed (See Roberto Alomar for a few yrs, Don Wert, John Vuckovich, John Kennedy, Wes Parker, Don Mattingly, Omar Vizquel, Bobby Richardson, Mark Belanger, and other supreme fielders); they cannot be ignored.

    Hence my "postage stamp range" remark; it fits to a tee, Amazing they're not moving him out of that position this yr; it shows what a shambles they are.

     



    UZR/150 was not around in teh days of many of these players, including Jeter pre-2002. I have been very careful in only talking about Jeter since 2003.

     

    I thought they should have kept ARod at SS, and moved jeter to 3B way back when, but ARod's D went bad as well.

    They will not move jeter until he is ready to move himself... or retire. The same went for keeping Ripken playing everyday seeking the record, even when it clearly hurt the team. They are icons and untouchable.



    I was referring to RF for those players.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

     The Torre book went into this in detail, which included his limitations.

    I didn't read it.

     



    Perhaps, but why discuss this as often as you do?  

    I state what I believe, and this is a hot topic for many posters. I have responded to responses and criticisms of my methodology and beliefs. 

    yes, I have done this more often than I probably should have, but I enjoy talking baseball in my retirement.

     



    OK.

     

     

    And while this is silly, did you know that Strat-O-Matic gave Jeter the highest possible fielding rating for roughly the 1st 10 yrs of his career? They are also very conservative about giving out this rating. Neither here nor there, of course. The only point is, there are two camps regardig him, and while I think the new metrics are flawed (See Roberto Alomar for a few yrs, Don Wert, John Vuckovich, John Kennedy, Wes Parker, Don Mattingly, Omar Vizquel, Bobby Richardson, Mark Belanger, and other supreme fielders); they cannot be ignored.

    Hence my "postage stamp range" remark; it fits to a tee, Amazing they're not moving him out of that position this yr; it shows what a shambles they are.

     



    UZR/150 was not around in teh days of many of these players, including Jeter pre-2002. I have been very careful in only talking about Jeter since 2003.

     

    I thought they should have kept ARod at SS, and moved jeter to 3B way back when, but ARod's D went bad as well.

    They will not move jeter until he is ready to move himself... or retire. The same went for keeping Ripken playing everyday seeking the record, even when it clearly hurt the team. They are icons and untouchable.

     



    I was referring to RF for those players.

     

    I'm not understanding your point. They didn't have the sabermetrics back in the days of Belanger-- no UZR/150.

    Mark's RF/9 was very good though. It was over 5 every year from 1971 to 1978, and over 4.8 every year he had more than 400 innings at SS ('69-'81). Amazing!

     




     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Over the last 9 years Jeter has played against the Sox approx. 162 games, a full season.  Surely someone can remember a game when Jeter's fielding issues resulted in a run or more for the Sox that contributed to us winning a game.



    You don't remember plays like, "oh, he just missed getting to that ball that 90% of MLB SSs would have gotten to" and then later realize, "had he got that, they would have won".

    First, baseball games are never won or lost on one play.

    Secondly, the memory does not work that way.

    Thirdly, it is clear to anyone watching 162+ games by a SS that Jeter has poor range, and the huge sample size of data proves that fact. Yes, he makes up for some of that by having  a nice arm, maybe better positioning than others, and his making almost all the plays hit right to him, but he has been, ovberall, a below avergae fielder, and if that is from the SS position, then it cost his teams some runs and wins along the way. I happen to think he has been one ofthe 3 worst fielding SSs in MLB for the past decade- surely that has cost his team some wins.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    Wow, it took you a while to get back to me on that one, moon. :-)

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Over the last 9 years Jeter has played against the Sox approx. 162 games, a full season.  Surely someone can remember a game when Jeter's fielding issues resulted in a run or more for the Sox that contributed to us winning a game.



    You don't remember plays like, "oh, he just missed getting to that ball that 90% of MLB SSs would have gotten to" and then later realize, "had he got that, they would have won".

    First, baseball games are never won or lost on one play.

    Secondly, the memory does not work that way.

    Thirdly, it is clear to anyone watching 162+ games by a SS that Jeter has poor range, and the huge sample size of data proves that fact. Yes, he makes up for some of that by having  a nice arm, maybe better positioning than others, and his making almost all the plays hit right to him, but he has been, ovberall, a below avergae fielder, and if that is from the SS position, then it cost his teams some runs and wins along the way. I happen to think he has been one ofthe 3 worst fielding SSs in MLB for the past decade- surely that has cost his team some wins.



    That is a big jump in logic. Without data to back it up you really can't say he has surely cost his team some wins. In addition, you don't factor in if his offense offset his defensive shortcomings. Seeing how often that the Yankees won the division, championships, and had a high winning pctg. during Jeter's long career tells me his "poor" defense didn't fatally harm his team's ability to win. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    Here is an excellent article about Jeter's defense.  It's lengthy, but it is a worthwhile read, especially for those who don't buy into what the advanced stats are saying.

    http://grantland.com/features/the-tragedy-derek-jeter-defense/

    Using either BP's defensive metric or BR's metric, Jeter has cost his team more runs in the field than any other player in history.  Granted, some of that is due to Jeter's longevity, but it is still very telling about his defense.

    If nothing else, look at the plot of Jeter's top 20 plays versus Brendan Ryan's top 20 plays.  You can easily see the difference in range.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    You don't remember plays like, "oh, he just missed getting to that ball that 90% of MLB SSs would have gotten to" and then later realize, "had he got that, they would have won".

    First, baseball games are never won or lost on one play.

    Secondly, the memory does not work that way.

    Thirdly, it is clear to anyone watching 162+ games by a SS that Jeter has poor range, and the huge sample size of data proves that fact. Yes, he makes up for some of that by having  a nice arm, maybe better positioning than others, and his making almost all the plays hit right to him, but he has been, ovberall, a below avergae fielder, and if that is from the SS position, then it cost his teams some runs and wins along the way. I happen to think he has been one ofthe 3 worst fielding SSs in MLB for the past decade- surely that has cost his team some wins.



    Spot on.   Even with Jeter's supposed better positioning and sure handedness, he is one of the worst fielding SSs.  We tend to remember the errors much more readily than the balls a fielder failed to get to.

    Lindbergh put it nicely:

    "Jeter gets outs on an above-average percentage of the balls he gets to, which helps obscure the fact that he gets to so few. It’s telling that errors are recorded only when a fielder has mishandled the ball, even though not even getting close to it might be the greater crime. We’re more likely to remember a fielder’s sins of commission than we are his sins of omission."

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    If we had traded Ellsbury for Bauer and Lester for Myers...

     

    C Salty/Ross/Lava

    1b Middlebrooks

    2b Pedey

    3b Bogaerts

    Ss Iggy

    LF Brentz/Nava

    CF Bradley

    RF Myers

    SP Buch, Lackey, Doub and 2 from: Morales, Bauer, DLR, Webster, Taz, Wright

    The money spent on Dempster, Naps, SV, Drew, and Gomes could have netted us A Sanchez and a power RF'er or LF'er (Myers plays the other).

     

    Tell me this would not have been a fantastic team to watch this year! (Even without Sanchez or a big bat and with SV in RF instead and maybe McCarthy or Marcum as another SP.)



    Ouch!

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to seannybboi's comment:

     

    In response to BosoxJoe5's comment:

     

    Where would Boegarts play?

     



    I actually want see him at 3B, WMB at 1B, Iggy at SS

     

     




     

    Iggy cannot hit the baseball at the ML level, barely at the AAA level. Until he can he should be buried at AAA where he cannot hurt us.

     



    Yet the career .299 OBP guy in the minors makes the team?

     

    (Ciriaco)

    Please explain.

     




    Neither has made the team yet. And of the two, Ciriaco has had much better success at the ML level

     



    Wow!  I'm halfway through the first page and two really bad calls in retrospect.

    I should really quit before I get to my responses, if any.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

     

    Drew isn't a better "overall SS" than any but the very worst SS's.

     



    Makes me think I need to re-evaluate my position, but I guess a broken clock is...

     



    Okay, to the top of the 2nd page and we have another winner.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Over the last 9 years Jeter has played against the Sox approx. 162 games, a full season.  Surely someone can remember a game when Jeter's fielding issues resulted in a run or more for the Sox that contributed to us winning a game.



    It's a little bit like proving a negative.  I think it is a lot easier to look at total plays.  It is really difficult to have your eye on the pitcher, then the batter, then to see how quickly the SS got off the block on a grounder up the middle.

    It's like a discussion we had in softball when it was decided I was more valuable at catcher.  One guy said, in my defense, that Joe never dropped a flyball in his life.  The manager's retort was that Joe actually never reached a flyball in his life.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    I'll concede the point on Jeter's defence having cost his team runs and games.  It just intrigues me that we never notice the specific instances.  I expect at some point 'range errors' will be given more attention in game coverage. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Over the last 9 years Jeter has played against the Sox approx. 162 games, a full season. Surely someone can remember a game when Jeter's fielding issues resulted in a run or more for the Sox that contributed to us winning a game.

     



    The problem with trying to recall a "lack of range" play in which Jeter caused his team some runs defensively is that these plays are ruled as "hits" by the scorer. Therefore, most people watching the game credit the batter with getting a good hit rather than blame Jeter for allowing runs to score. Most people don't even realize that that grounder would have been turned into an out by the majority of the other shortstops.

     

    It is easy to remember when someone boots a grounder, especially when that booted ball results in runs. Most people are not going to make a mental note of a grounder that made it into the outfield, "past a diving Jeter", that resulted in runs.

    In one study of data from 2003 to 2008, the SS with the highest rate of grounders kept in the infield was Adam Everett at 83.5%. Ramon Vazquez was worst at 76.5%. Jeter was 2nd to last at 77.3%.

    The difference between the best and worst over a season is about 40 hits. So, Jeter has fewer errors than other shortstops, but he is giving up significantly more hits. Just because these plays cannot be easily seen or recalled doesn't mean that they don't exist.

    Moon is spot on in his posts about Jeter's defense. The fact that he makes all the plays that he gets to is biased by the fact that he gets to so few. Even with his sure handedness, he is an overall terrible defensive SS.

     




     

    Great response, but I think your statement I underlined can be more like a 100-120 hits differential between best and worst.



    It's not that much.  Using a study over the past 5 years, using a cut-off of 3,486 IPs, which is meant to get me close to a ML roster of 30 starters, there are 25 SS's that meet that criteria.  Dividing  IPs/plays, the best among the SS's is Barnes with 3.85 IPs/play.  the worst among all SS's is Jeter with 4.80 IPs/play.

    UJsing 1,400 IPs as a standard season, the difference between the two (the best and worst) is 'only' 72 plays per season.

    But 72 plays is still significant.  Assuming all are singles, that effectively would reduce a player's average from .300 to .180.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Ben - make 1967 happen again! Keep Bogaerts, De La Rosa Webster, Bradley and Wright on 25 man roster!

    In response to eidlog's comment:

    1967, what a great year! From the start of spring training, you knew something was different. Starting with Dick Williams. When asked what his expectations for the coming year were, he replied, "we'll win more than we'll lose." It was exciting from start to finish. Young players and veterans came together like magic. What would be the excitement level if Bradley was in the outfield and Bogaerts was at short. And why not Wright every fifth day with De La Rosa and Webster coming in from the bullpen throwing close to 100mph. I know it isn't the way things are done nowadays. I'm told it's not prudent.  Let them get their at bats and build up their innings at the minor league levels. But I can dream the  "Impossible Dream".



    I really have to keep shaking my head as to why some fans like Webster so much.  I say at best Webster will be another Phil Hughes.

     

     
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