BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from charliedarling. Show charliedarling's posts

    BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    I may be behind the times, but I just read that the Red Sox were thinking of trading for Cliff Lee either today or in the off season.

    Please no Cliff Lee in  Boston unless the Phillies pick up $20-22M of his yearly salary for the duration of its length and then only accept a marginal prospect.

    The concept of bringing 30 something, very high priced free agents HAS NOT worked in the past and WILL NOT work with Cliff Lee either.

    Time to let the idea of Cliff Lee go the way of Joe Mauer.  Both guys are way over priced.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    I'd give Lackey, Aviles, and Coyle for Lee.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    Philly wouldn't take it.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    I doubt they'd take Lackey, Aviles, Brentz and Coyle either.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    Do it.  He's what we need.  It's a lot of money but not a long term deal.

    Not that I want them to be at 170 Million again or spend like crazy, they can afford it.

    Phillies just want the salary relief.  Probably only take 2 guys on our side that we can live w/o. 

    Resign our own key guys - Ortiz and Ross, trade for Cliff Lee, and sign Mike Napoli.....and see what is available in lower profile deals for relievers......If Lee gives up one WS during his tenure it would be well worth it; and he is very capable of delivering that.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    You guys are crazy if you want to trade 4 good prospects for a guy that could be making 27mm in his age 38 year...Did you NOT learn anything???? Unbelievable!!! If your going to spend 20mm per on a pitcher, how about one thats under, say, 34 and wont be 38 at the end of his contract...
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    In response to charliedarling's comment:

    I may be behind the times, but I just read that the Red Sox were thinking of trading for Cliff Lee either today or in the off season.

    Please no Cliff Lee in  Boston unless the Phillies pick up $20-22M of his yearly salary for the duration of its length and then only accept a marginal prospect.

    The concept of bringing 30 something, very high priced free agents HAS NOT worked in the past and WILL NOT work with Cliff Lee either.

    Time to let the idea of Cliff Lee go the way of Joe Mauer.  Both guys are way over priced.



    I think we need a leader on the staff, whether it be Felix, Lee or someone else it's a must for the others to have someone they can respect and depend on.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxDOrtiz. Show RedSoxDOrtiz's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    This team needs starting ace quality pitching.  That is what wins championships and it is what we lacked this year.  Ask the Rangers of the past what a huge offense with no starting pitching does for a team... or the Red Sox for the 86 years before 2004.  This game is about one thing and it is pitching.  We lack an ace and if you do sign a big deal or make a huge trade it is for an ace quality pitcher... get it done Ben because I don't think you can pry away King Felix.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    By including Lackey, we would be, in a way, be paying Lee this much: 

    3 year: 56M 
    4 year: 71M 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    He leads the league in K/W, so he is still good, but the 100M/4+ is just too much.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    He leads the league in K/W, so he is still good, but the 100M/4+ is just too much.



    minus Lackey and it is a close call.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from JetsMangione. Show JetsMangione's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    why would they ever even think of trading for a pitcher that is over the hill? The sox are not a player or two away from being a contender, they are a whole roster away from it! They need to keep on losing for a few more years, get some decent draft picks and build through the draft. Theo made a mess, he was a horrible gm, he inherits a very good team, they win a couple of world series. Under his watch they decline with each year to this. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Motown9009. Show Motown9009's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee


    They won in 2004, with a group of star players mixed with castoffs.

    They won in 2007 with mostly the same star players mixed with youth.

    I think they need to start with the established, dependable start pitcher, like Schilling was. The 2004 plan is tough to repeat since the whole moneyball plot was copied and seemingly abandoned since 2004. Proven players mixed with youth seems to be the way to go, and right now they have no ace of the staff.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    why would they ever even think of trading for a pitcher that is over the hill?

    Why is Lee 'over the hill'?

    1-3.52 ERA
    2-Leads the league in K/W with a 6.24
    3-Lowest W/IP in league
    4-An ERA of ~ 3.00 over his past 11 starts
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    How old was Schill in 2004 and 2007?

    Oh yeah...

    (Hint: 37 & 40)
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:

    This team needs starting ace quality pitching. That is what wins championships and it is what we lacked this year. Ask the Rangers of the past what a huge offense with no starting pitching does for a team... or the Red Sox for the 86 years before 2004. This game is about one thing and it is pitching. We lack an ace and if you do sign a big deal or make a huge trade it is for an ace quality pitcher... get it done Ben because I don't think you can pry away King Felix.



    Not sure the Rangers are the best team to ask about "no starting pitching."  In 2011, they had a 3.79 team ERA, good for fifth in the AL.  In 2010, they had a 3.93 team ERA, which was third best.   They also, for a while in 2010, had Cliff Lee.

    I still want a defintition for an "ace" beyond something like the Supreme Court interpretation of pornography - "I know it when I see it."


     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    In response to notin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:

    This team needs starting ace quality pitching. That is what wins championships and it is what we lacked this year. Ask the Rangers of the past what a huge offense with no starting pitching does for a team... or the Red Sox for the 86 years before 2004. This game is about one thing and it is pitching. We lack an ace and if you do sign a big deal or make a huge trade it is for an ace quality pitcher... get it done Ben because I don't think you can pry away King Felix.



    Not sure the Rangers are the best team to ask about "no starting pitching."  In 2011, they had a 3.79 team ERA, good for fifth in the AL.  In 2010, they had a 3.93 team ERA, which was third best.   They also, for a while in 2010, had Cliff Lee.

    I still want a defintition for an "ace" beyond something like the Supreme Court interpretation of pornography - "I know it when I see it."


     

    [/QUOTE]

    You need to define 'championships' as well.  To finish well in the regular season, you need 5 good pitchers.  To finish well in the WS, you need 2-3 ace/#1 types.  You don't often get a combo of the two.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    Lee, overall still has a decent ERA this season at 3.52 with only 26 BB and 161 SO.  Not bad at all considering what type of year the Phils have had as a whole.  Is he worth what hes paid?  Of course not but he is much better than anyone we presently have.  The only concern I would have are all the innings he has racked up since 08 but that can be regulated to give his arm a bit of a rest. 

    If there is a chance to get him, I don't see his age being a problem.  Lee is usually healthy and reliable, which we rarely see on this staff..
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    In response to notin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:

    This team needs starting ace quality pitching. That is what wins championships and it is what we lacked this year. Ask the Rangers of the past what a huge offense with no starting pitching does for a team... or the Red Sox for the 86 years before 2004. This game is about one thing and it is pitching. We lack an ace and if you do sign a big deal or make a huge trade it is for an ace quality pitcher... get it done Ben because I don't think you can pry away King Felix.



    Not sure the Rangers are the best team to ask about "no starting pitching."  In 2011, they had a 3.79 team ERA, good for fifth in the AL.  In 2010, they had a 3.93 team ERA, which was third best.   They also, for a while in 2010, had Cliff Lee.

    I still want a defintition for an "ace" beyond something like the Supreme Court interpretation of pornography - "I know it when I see it."


     

    [/QUOTE]

    The Rangers remind me of the 116 win Mariners team from 2001 who were ousted from the postseason by a Yankee team lead by Clemens & Petitte...Teams with a 5 deep rotations, a good but not great bullpen with a potent lineups. teams built to win 100 games over the coarse of a 162 game schedule, but lack a front of the rotation big game pitcher to lead them in the postseason. In 2011 they ran into Lincecum & Cain both of whom outpitched Lee and Wilson and then last year it was Carpenter who they couldn't match up with in a must win game with Wilson again falling short.

    In the end it doesn't matter if for example you have a guy like Verlander fronting your rotation if he doesn't pitch big in big games. Becasue unless he puts up 9 zero's even Bob Gibson needs 1 run to win. So with that said, you also as part of the formula need some tinmely hitting (see Renteria vs Lee) and it also doesn't hurt to have a guy at the end of the game with the petigree of Rivera...Which in my humble opinion the Rangers lacked the last two post seasons...

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxDOrtiz. Show RedSoxDOrtiz's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    In response to notin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:

    This team needs starting ace quality pitching. That is what wins championships and it is what we lacked this year. Ask the Rangers of the past what a huge offense with no starting pitching does for a team... or the Red Sox for the 86 years before 2004. This game is about one thing and it is pitching. We lack an ace and if you do sign a big deal or make a huge trade it is for an ace quality pitcher... get it done Ben because I don't think you can pry away King Felix.



    Not sure the Rangers are the best team to ask about "no starting pitching."  In 2011, they had a 3.79 team ERA, good for fifth in the AL.  In 2010, they had a 3.93 team ERA, which was third best.   They also, for a while in 2010, had Cliff Lee.

    I still want a defintition for an "ace" beyond something like the Supreme Court interpretation of pornography - "I know it when I see it."


     

    [/QUOTE]

    That's why I used them as an example.  The Rangers were like the Sox for years... amazing offense but no starting pitching.  As soon as they changed that philosophy the team turned from a bashing team into a championship team.  The same thing happened with the Red Sox... we went from just a bashing team to a team with two aces and a solid closer.  That won us two championships because it went along with a solid offense that we always had. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    You need to define 'championships' as well.  To finish well in the regular season, you need 5 good pitchers.  To finish well in the WS, you need 2-3 ace/#1 types.  You don't often get a combo of the two.
    -joebreidey

    Joe, with less days off during the playoffs this has changed a bit. Teams now need 3-4 quality starters to have a good chance at advancing, especially if they are a WC team and need to play the extra game "ply-in".
     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    In response to bobbysu's comment:

    Sox need 2 Top of line Starters, I consider Lester a #3, he isn't an Ace like a Pedro, and really not a Number #2 at this point.
    Emphisis has to be on Starting Pitching.



    I agree, but think Greinke or C. Lee is not "that guy". We need a two year plan. We should look to find some young starters via trade, like the Nats did last year with Gio G.

    I might give Brandon McCarthy, Shaun Marcum, and Jonathan Sanchez a chance to see if they can become a solid number 2, but I would not go longterm of too high in money.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    In response to moonslav59 comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to bobbysu comment:

    Sox need 2 Top of line Starters, I consider Lester a #3, he isn't an Ace like a Pedro, and really not a Number #2 at this point.
    Emphisis has to be on Starting Pitching.

    McCarthy would be my choice moon.  He has already shown the ability to pitch and have success in the AL like Lee and is only 29.  I think Brandon would fit right in with the guys and have some nice years in Boston. 



    I agree, but think Greinke or C. Lee is not "that guy". We need a two year plan. We should look to find some young starters via trade, like the Nats did last year with Gio G.

    I might give Brandon McCarthy, Shaun Marcum, and Jonathan Sanchez a chance to see if they can become a solid number 2, but I would not go longterm of too high in money.

     

    [/QUOTE]

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: BIG NO on Acquiring Cliff Lee

    McCarthy would be my choice moon.  He has already shown the ability to pitch and have success in the AL like Lee and is only 29.  I think Brandon would fit right in with the guys and have some nice years in Boston. 


    I do worry about this:

    Only 1 season of over 108 IP.
    2.59 Home ERA/ 3.66 Away ERA in 2012 (not that 3.66 is bad)
    2.65 Home ERA/3.99  Away ERA in 2011
    Again, not a bad away ERA, but if we sign him, and he has a 4.50 ERA at Fenway and a 4.00 on the road, he will not earn what he will be paid.

    I still like him as one of the best choices in a limited FA market.
     

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