Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dmo3of4. Show dmo3of4's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    I am not as familiar with the arbitration process-- can The Sox walk away from the commitment to Ortiz or is his salary (to be determined) guaranteed?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    is that number up from previous discussions??....
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    The question should not be whether or not David Ortiz is a solid DH, because that should be beyond contestation by anyone here. The man hit .309 with 29 homers, 96 RBI's, 40 doubles, and had an OPS of .953.  Please point out 1 DH in baseball with superior numbers. Go ahead...I'll wait. Having some trouble? YOU SHOULD BE. Because Ortiz is by far the best DH in the game. Only a complete and utter idiot would post suggesting he has no value...and I have seen some idiocy on this board recently suggesting that very thing. Hope I helped clear the issue up for some. Now, if you want to say you don't think he's worth $16 million this year, you'd hear no disagreement from me. Maybe you disapprove of his slothfulness at times? I'm with ya there too. The man has weaknesses for sure. But he's a solid bat and a beloved Red Sox figure, and will hopefully help turn around the negativity that infected the clubhouse last season. Trust me, we're going to need a vocal leader there to help Bobby keep the more rebellious kids in line. I'm hoping a 2 or 3 yr deal will be struck soon, but am not overly optimistic about the chances.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration:
    Where is the Yankee forum guy from RiveraveBlues that claims the the EE is "lowballing" Gardner in arbitration? Why not input on this from our resident Yankee fans / trolls.
    Posted by UticaClub


    Russell Martin is seeking an $8.2 million dollar contract after his remarkable first season with the Yankees. The Yankees only offered Martin $7 million, it is belived the pair will come to terms before Martin is forced into arbitration
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration:
    People assume that just because you had a very good year, you will get a raise. Papi was overpayed for 2011 to begin with. If you compare his 2009-2010 numbers with other DHs, he did not deserve what he got last year (apart from his actual 2011 season numbers). Some were surprised we took the 2011 option at $12.5M. He did better than almost anyone expected, but it is not a cinch he wins the big award.
    Posted by moonslav59


    It's a similar situation to the one K-Rod found himself in after accepting Arb this year.  He came off of a very strong 2011, but still took a large paycut (down to about $8M).  Obviously it's difficult to compare a closer and a DH, but it shows that in FA arb, you can certainly have your salary reduced and may be used asa point of contention against Ortiz's $16M.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    I don't see what the big deal is.  No way papi is getting close to 16 mil in arbitration.  the sox put in a bid they know is a bit low, and will end up north of that figure, but nowhere near 16.  Why are people getting so up in arms about this figure?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from sinjin5000. Show sinjin5000's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    i hope the RS don't make things worse and sign ortiz longer then 2012. It's time to move on.

    Th rs have enough bad contracts on the books without adding another one. 

    The RS have two ways to go here, pay him what he gets in arbitration, or put him on wavers and hope some dumb as... takes him. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    I don't see what the big deal is.  No way papi is getting close to 16 mil in arbitration.  the sox put in a bid they know is a bit low, and will end up north of that figure, but nowhere near 16.  Why are people getting so up in arms about this figure?

    If iot goes to arb, he will get one offer or the other...NOT INBETWEEN!

    He may end up with $16M if the arbitrator thinks he is worth closer to $16M than $12.65M. He will not get $14M, unless he agrees to it before the arb hearing & result.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration:
    I don't see what the big deal is.  No way papi is getting close to 16 mil in arbitration.  the sox put in a bid they know is a bit low, and will end up north of that figure, but nowhere near 16.  Why are people getting so up in arms about this figure? If iot goes to arb, he will get one offer or the other...NOT INBETWEEN! He may end up with $16M if the arbitrator thinks he is worth closer to $16M than $12.65M. He will not get $14M, unless he agrees to it before the arb hearing & result.
    Posted by moonslav59


    Right.  Sorry.  I didn't mean that it would go to arbitration.  Meant to see that he would get in between because it won't go to arbitration ... because I just don't see how there is anyway 16 is a reasonable figure based on last year's production.  12.65 certainly is.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    I agree, but if an arbitrator thinks he's worth $14.5M, he may give him $16M, because it's closer.

    Papi might make a stand here, and if he does, it's a lose/lose for the Sox. 
    If Papi wins, $16M would completely cripple us this year (if we want to stay under the limit). 
    If Papi loses, he'll feel disrespected and who knows what might happen.
     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    The panel, without opinion, awards the player a one-year, non-guaranteed contract at one salary or the other. If the player is cut within 16 days before the season begins, he is entitled only to 30 days’ termination pay. If the player is cut during spring training but after the 16th day before the season begins, he is entitled only to 45 days’ termination pay.


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration:
    since arbitration is an either/or and not a negotiation Papi will get the $16 million not the $12.650 the sox offered. What are they thinking? With the year he had they barely offer him a raise and make his number the winning number. Its one thing to be cheap, it's an entirely different issue to be stupid.  the sox are really looking stupid now.
    Posted by accland


    FYI, the Sox haven't gone to an aribration hearing since 2002, and you are allowed to negotiate with the player on a salary right up to the arbitration hearing.

    Every time during the Epstein era that the Sox and a player exchanged arbitration figures (which was already a rare enough occurance), the team and player settled on a figure at roughly the midpoint of the two offers.

    Given that the Sox undershot fair Ortiz value, and Ortiz overshot fair value, neither side will want to go to arbitration and risk losing. Ortiz will probably sign for a bit over $14m.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration:
    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration : Russell Martin is seeking an $8.2 million dollar contract after his remarkable first season with the Yankees. The Yankees only offered Martin $7 million, it is belived the pair will come to terms before Martin is forced into arbitration
    Posted by UticaClub


    What was remarkable about his first season? The .237 BA? .324 OBP? 92 OPS+?

    Wait, I know...it was his .223/.311/.362 line from April 25 through the rest of the season! That's some quality hitting right there.

    Martin will have a nice start nest year, as he always does, and the moment he hits a slump he'll be a poor bat for the rest of the year.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration:
    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration : What was remarkable about his first season? The .237 BA? .324 OBP? 92 OPS+? Wait, I know...it was his .223/.311/.362 line from April 25 through the rest of the season! That's some quality hitting right there. Martin will have a nice start nest year, as he always does, and the moment he hits a slump he'll be a poor bat for the rest of the year.
    Posted by redsoxu571


    Agreed - Martin had a decent year with the bat, but it can go into the worst of slumps at the most inopportune times. His play behind the plate was more than I expected, so that was good.

    Utica trying to use Martin as an example in the Big Papi dicussion makes little to no sense, IMO.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration:
    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration : FYI, the Sox haven't gone to an aribration hearing since 2002, and you are allowed to negotiate with the player on a salary right up to the arbitration hearing. Every time during the Epstein era that the Sox and a player exchanged arbitration figures (which was already a rare enough occurance), the team and player settled on a figure at roughly the midpoint of the two offers. Given that the Sox undershot fair Ortiz value, and Ortiz overshot fair value, neither side will want to go to arbitration and risk losing. Ortiz will probably sign for a bit over $14m.
    Posted by redsoxu571


    If the Sox believe Papi is here for One year and One year only then I think they should roll the dice and let the Arbitrator decide.....if they think he is worth a Multi year then do that because it will definitely work out better than paying him even 14mm for year one. I am sure that papi will not be happy if he loses, but he will again be playing for a contract, so I dont see his performance slipping due to lack of effort. The Sox just need to make sure they do not disparage him during the hearings, but just simply state that 12.65mm is a high end salary in the current market even for the Best DH in the game....and as I stated earlier 1.5% higher than a 12.5 million dollar Salary that was based on much better numbers from 04-07 in a Market where Salaries in general for DH's was much higher.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration:
    NYY budget is also gone. Yankee fans were mad. Forced them to trade their best prospect. Yankee FO very concerned about the luxury tax. I know, trolls don't understand this. Is American Idol starting tonight or tomorrow?
    Posted by UticaClub


    They traded their best prospect for a 23 year old stud pitcher who's not a free agent for 4-5 more years. What are you talking about?
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration:
    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration : All true but the facts are he will be on the team in 2012 and the sox just blew about $2 million by not offering him a realistic raise.  that $2 million is 1/4 of Oswalt signing.They are stupid!!!
    Posted by accland


    They blew about $8M annually by offering him arbitration. One of dumbest moves I've seen.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration:
    Offer 3 yrs 14m/12m/10m. If he refuses take him to Arb.  If he is awarded 16m simply walk away and go sign Vladdy/Damon and Oswalt for that money. 
    Posted by shuperman


    Do you understand the process? If he is awareded $16M, they have to pay him.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    ....and as I stated earlier 1.5% higher than a 12.5 million dollar Salary that was based on much better numbers from 04-07 in a Market where Salaries in general for DH's was much higher.

    Papi was overpaid at $12.5M based on what he did in 2009 & 2010 and comparing him to other DH and DH types for those 2 years. Thome, Scott, and matsui all had higher OPS from 2009-2010. Kubel, Hafner, Lind, and guerrero were very close, yet none made close to what papi made. 

    I do not think arbitrators look at what the player made last year and if he did better. He looks at all DHs and what they all get paid. He may see that Papi was overpaid in 2011 and actually deserves below $12.65M, and so he would reward Papi with the Sox offer and not $16M. It's hard to know for sure. No DH has done what Papi has done.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration:
    The panel, without opinion, awards the player a one-year, non-guaranteed contract at one salary or the other. If the player is cut within 16 days before the season begins, he is entitled only to 30 days’ termination pay. If the player is cut during spring training but after the 16th day before the season begins, he is entitled only to 45 days’ termination pay.
    Posted by moonslav59


    moon - Thanks. I did not know that. I have to believe that if he's offered $16M, they may cut him. That $16M would probably add $3M to the luxury tax, meaning that Ortiz would cost the team $19M or so this year. That would be their negotiation leverage in this process. No one would pick him up anywhere near the $12.6M or even $9M. 

    I would cut him if he wins.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    In Response to Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration:
    ....and as I stated earlier 1.5% higher than a 12.5 million dollar Salary that was based on much better numbers from 04-07 in a Market where Salaries in general for DH's was much higher. Papi was overpaid at $12.5M based on what he did in 2009 & 2010 and comparing him to other DH and DH types for those 2 years. Thome, Scott, and matsui all had higher OPS from 2009-2010. Kubel, Hafner, Lind, and guerrero were very close, yet none made close to what papi made.  I do not think arbitrators look at what the player made last year and if he did better. He looks at all DHs and what they all get paid. He may see that Papi was overpaid in 2011 and actually deserves below $12.65M, and so he would reward Papi with the Sox offer and not $16M. It's hard to know for sure. No DH has done what Papi has done.
    Posted by moonslav59

    I agree Moon which is why the Sox should not settle for 14mm. In the current market even with his performance from Last year, 12.65 mm is above market for even the Best DH. If Papi happens to win the 16mm award, they could always try to negotiate a more favorable Guaranteed 2 year deal with the hammer being that the 16mm awarded is not guaranteed and if the Sox were to release him, he woudl take a huge hit on the Open Market.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Big Papi wants $16M, should've never offered arbitration

    More brilliance from Ben!
     
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