Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 8:08 AM EST
- carnie
- Posts: 10933
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In response to charliedarling's comment:
The Sox could not have made the same trade even if they wanted to. They are looking for pitchers like Shields and Davis much more than they can give them up at this point.
The Sox also have not shown the willingness to insert such young guys like Myers right into their starting lineup like the Rays and the Royals have. When was the last young guy who did well in the minors placed directly into the starting lineup to begin a season for Boston? They probably would have put Myers at Pawtucket anyway for at least the beginning of the season, and that could be where Tampa puts him as well if he struggles in spring training.
Granted he didn't start the season in Boston, but Will Middlebrooks didn't spend very long in Pawtucket. I don't think he even played a full season for the PawSox.
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 8:10 AM EST
In response to charliedarling's comment:
The Sox could not have made the same trade even if they wanted to. They are looking for pitchers like Shields and Davis much more than they can give them up at this point.
The Sox also have not shown the willingness to insert such young guys like Myers right into their starting lineup like the Rays and the Royals have. When was the last young guy who did well in the minors placed directly into the starting lineup to begin a season for Boston? They probably would have put Myers at Pawtucket anyway for at least the beginning of the season, and that could be where Tampa puts him as well if he struggles in spring training.
It's easy to see why the Sox didn't make this trade.
They need pitching unlike the Ray's who have plenty.
Some of the Sox better prospects are outfielders.
More importantly the Sox brass understand the uncertainty of prospects and how their game might not translate at the MLL.
That and the Sox don't have the payroll limitations Tampa is forced to deal with.
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 8:12 AM EST
- GoUconn13
- Posts: 2190
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Well, either way, it is not going to help the Red Sox anyway. Red Sox already need pitching as well the Royals too. So if we substract Lester along with a young bullpen pitcher like Tawaza, Boston would eventually need to find two more starters along with a bullpen pitcher. That is hard to do especially in this weak free agency this year. If Boston need a pitcher, Boston would eventually have to part away top pitching prospects along with a good hitting prospects.
Why can Boston just sign Sanchez or Lohse without making a trade?
Anyway, who win the deal between Royals and Rays? I think the Royals did cuz they got two already major league pitchers while Rays got four unproven major league level ball players. In three to four years from now, we can all look at this trade to see who got the better deal. Would people think this is another Jeff Bagwell deal or it is just like Boston giving away Hanson who is a busted player.
Seriously, I am glad that Rays thin out their starting pitchings. Price must have a good year every year or otherwise, Rays is not going to have a good years within the next two to three years!!
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Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 8:29 AM EST
- Alibiike
- Posts: 3097
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In response to southpaw777's comment:
we could, but it would hurt more than help. Rays have plenty of pitching to give where its a need for the Sox...They didnt match up well.
Doubtful the Rays would have traded within the division anyway. Still, good pickup for KC.
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 8:34 AM EST
- Bisson1
- Posts: 2199
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KC will be interesting to watch. The AL Central is pretty weak, they could have a shot with the second wild card.
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 8:36 AM EST
- Alibiike
- Posts: 3097
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In response to BMav's comment:
Tampa robbed K.C.
Although, the deal is making me wonder if there is something about Wil Myers we don't know about. You don't trade a top 3 prospect and a top 20 prospect for 2 years of James Shields and a middle reliever. Hard to understand.
I view Lester and Shields as equal in value. Yes, Shields has been the better pitcher over the last two seasons. However, Lester was better 3-4-5 years ago. He is more then 3 years younger. He is a lefty. He has had worse defense behind him. He has had a much better hitters park to pitch in, especially for a lefty. Career road ERA's....Lester 3.64....Shields 4.54. Change that. I think Lester has a bit more value.
K.C. are idiots.
If it helps KC get to the Post Season, then it was worth it. They are trying to do what Ben can't seem to grasp.....make the team better now, not three years from now!
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 8:40 AM EST
- mef429
- Posts: 5429
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In response to Alibiike's comment:
In response to BMav's comment:
Tampa robbed K.C.
Although, the deal is making me wonder if there is something about Wil Myers we don't know about. You don't trade a top 3 prospect and a top 20 prospect for 2 years of James Shields and a middle reliever. Hard to understand.
I view Lester and Shields as equal in value. Yes, Shields has been the better pitcher over the last two seasons. However, Lester was better 3-4-5 years ago. He is more then 3 years younger. He is a lefty. He has had worse defense behind him. He has had a much better hitters park to pitch in, especially for a lefty. Career road ERA's....Lester 3.64....Shields 4.54. Change that. I think Lester has a bit more value.
K.C. are idiots.
If it helps KC get to the Post Season, then it was worth it. They are trying to do what Ben can't seem to grasp.....make the team better now
at the expense of three years from now!
fixed your post ali. if 2013 was the only thing BC had to worry about then we would have seen a much different offseason. but not only does he have to work to put a competitive team on the field (like he is doing). hes got to think 5 years down the road as well and not rob peter to pay paul. which he is doing well. the more of our top prospects we keep the better off we will be
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 8:40 AM EST
- moonslav59
- Posts: 35065
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In response to djcbuffum's comment:
It all depends on whether the Rays startes can step it up. They have a habit of letting their "ace" go, and counting on guys no. 2-6 stepping it up a bit. First Scott Kazmir, then Matt Garza, now James Shields. Price has the ability to step into the #1 slot, and Hellickson into the #2, will the others step it up a bit? Time will tell.
They also have a habit of dealing players right before the sharply decline or get hurt.
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 8:41 AM EST
- Ice-Cream
- Posts: 3175
- First: 6/21/2008
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The Royal's pitching staff looks pretty good right now.
Tampa needed offense so I am not surprised that they traded Shields.
Watch out for the Blue Jays and Royals in 2013.
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 8:52 AM EST
- EnchiladaT
- Posts: 3024
- First: 3/28/2012
- Last: 3/13/2013
Yes KC is really jumping into it Ali ! Boy you would think after KC having a losing record 17 out of the last 18 seasons that Cherrington should aspire to be so much like them! Kansas City really is grabbing the bull by the horns! lol
So should we plan on 16 more losing seasons in order to match the Royals going for it?
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 9:19 AM EST
- hill55
- Posts: 7757
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In response to moonslav59's comment:
They also have a habit of dealing players right before the sharply decline or get hurt.
Moon, for what it's worth, the Oakland Athletics reportedly turned down an offer of Wil Myers for Brett Anderson:
https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/278021687289729024
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 9:36 AM EST
- mef429
- Posts: 5429
- First: 9/10/2006
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In response to hill55's comment:
In response to moonslav59's comment:
They also have a habit of dealing players right before the sharply decline or get hurt.
Moon, for what it's worth, the Oakland Athletics reportedly turned down an offer of Wil Myers for Brett Anderson:
https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/278021687289729024
well that gives us some perspective... on the other hand oakland isn't looking for OF'ers. interesting though for sure
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 10:19 AM EST
- TexasPat
- Posts: 2462
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In response to hill55's comment:
Even with the rumor discussioin regarding Jon Lester, I don't think the Red Sox could top the Rays' offer for OF Wil Myers, RHP Jake Odorizzi, LHP Mike Montgomery and 3B/OF Patrick Leonard, for James Shields and Wade Davis.
That was quite a haul by the Rays: 22-year-old outfielder Wil Myers entered the season as Baseball America's 28th-ranked prospect before blowing up this year, 23-year-old lefthander Mike Montgomery entered the season as BA's 23rd-ranked prospect before faltering at Triple A this year, 22-year-old righthander Jake Odorizzi entered the season as BA's 68th-ranked prospect, and thirdbaseman Patrick Leonard last season posted an OPS of .833 in the pitcher-friendly Midwest League as a 19-year-old.
Sensational deal for the Rays. Dumb move by the Royals. It's the type of trade that well run organizations make. Meanwhile, the Sox have added Shane Victorino!!! Geez!!
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 10:37 AM EST
- mef429
- Posts: 5429
- First: 9/10/2006
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In response to TexasPat's comment:
In response to hill55's comment:
Even with the rumor discussioin regarding Jon Lester, I don't think the Red Sox could top the Rays' offer for OF Wil Myers, RHP Jake Odorizzi, LHP Mike Montgomery and 3B/OF Patrick Leonard, for James Shields and Wade Davis.
That was quite a haul by the Rays: 22-year-old outfielder Wil Myers entered the season as Baseball America's 28th-ranked prospect before blowing up this year, 23-year-old lefthander Mike Montgomery entered the season as BA's 23rd-ranked prospect before faltering at Triple A this year, 22-year-old righthander Jake Odorizzi entered the season as BA's 68th-ranked prospect, and thirdbaseman Patrick Leonard last season posted an OPS of .833 in the pitcher-friendly Midwest League as a 19-year-old.
Sensational deal for the Rays. Dumb move by the Royals. It's the type of trade that well run organizations make. Meanwhile, the Sox have added Shane Victorino!!! Geez!!
they royals got shields (who is money) and davis (long relief/starter) for a slew of prospects. at the end of the day your getting 2 known commodities for a series of unknowns. won't know for sure "who won" until those prospects step foot into the mlb.
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 11:24 AM EST
- Drewski5
- Posts: 6433
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In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
In response to BosoxJoe5's comment:
In response to mthomas43's comment:
Maybe the Sox can get Myers in 6 years. This off season just keeps getting worse.
I never really though Wil Myers was a realistic target this year.
He was a realistic target if the Royals were willing to deal him. We keep getting 31+ year olds while dream acquisitions involving MLB ready prospects (rare, very rare to be had) are not our "thing".
Better prospects than Will Myers fade every year.
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 11:41 AM EST
- Drewski5
- Posts: 6433
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Good points Hingham Hammer and Zac. A guy who is 31 and has proven he can hit/pitch in the major leagues is a much better bet to succeed than practically any prospect.
I watch the top 10 prospects every year. About 3 break out, one stays where he is, and six fizzle.
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 11:57 AM EST
In response to kimsaysthis' comment:
In response to traven's comment:
Agree, the Sox just don't have the horses available to pull off a major deal like that. Ells is the best they are willing to let go and he isn't worth that much since the gaining team only has control of him for 1 yr. Not much in the minors to deal either since the Sox showcased all of them this past year due to the huge amount of injuries and none of them really looked that great. I think their best bet is to try to sign FA Lohse for whatever it takes and hope he can pitch in the AL East.
I know. The Sox just suck. Isn't it a drag?
Yes.
DragForce=(Rho*Velocity^2*DragCoefficient*FrontalArea)/2
where Rho = density of talent surrounding the Sox in the AL East;94win/teamALE
Velocity = Sox' downward fall to ALE Basement (V=sqrt(2g(h2-h1)));h2=1st place;h1=5th place
Drag Coefficient = (1 - 0.426) = 0.574 (.426 = Sox Winning % in 2012);
Frontal Area = 723 (game sellout streak - what a front);
In summation
Fd=(94*8.85^2*0.574*723)/2 = 1.53*10^6 N? (Unit conversion from baseball to fluid mechanics gets a bit hairy, but lets just say its going to be a turbulent year (shout out to the Reynolds' number crowd!)
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Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 12:33 PM EST
- mef429
- Posts: 5429
- First: 9/10/2006
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In response to louisthelipp's comment:
In response to traven's comment:
Agree, the Sox just don't have the horses available to pull off a major deal like that. Ells is the best they are willing to let go and he isn't worth that much since the gaining team only has control of him for 1 yr. Not much in the minors to deal either since the Sox showcased all of them this past year due to the huge amount of injuries and none of them really looked that great. I think their best bet is to try to sign FA Lohse for whatever it takes and hope he can pitch in the AL East.
I wasn't aware the the Sox showcased the 4 Bs this past season. Did they play at Fenway?
pike
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 12:55 PM EST
- parhunter55
- Posts: 829
- First: 3/30/2012
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In response to mef429's comment:
In response to TexasPat's comment:
In response to hill55's comment:
Even with the rumor discussioin regarding Jon Lester, I don't think the Red Sox could top the Rays' offer for OF Wil Myers, RHP Jake Odorizzi, LHP Mike Montgomery and 3B/OF Patrick Leonard, for James Shields and Wade Davis.
That was quite a haul by the Rays: 22-year-old outfielder Wil Myers entered the season as Baseball America's 28th-ranked prospect before blowing up this year, 23-year-old lefthander Mike Montgomery entered the season as BA's 23rd-ranked prospect before faltering at Triple A this year, 22-year-old righthander Jake Odorizzi entered the season as BA's 68th-ranked prospect, and thirdbaseman Patrick Leonard last season posted an OPS of .833 in the pitcher-friendly Midwest League as a 19-year-old.
Sensational deal for the Rays. Dumb move by the Royals. It's the type of trade that well run organizations make. Meanwhile, the Sox have added Shane Victorino!!! Geez!!
they royals got shields (who is money) and davis (long relief/starter) for a slew of prospects. at the end of the day your getting 2 known commodities for a series of unknowns. won't know for sure "who won" until those prospects step foot into the mlb.
Well said. The Rays are now one pitcher injury away from needing pitching. Meanwhile, the expectation is that Myers does not play at the MLB level this year, except after July. That being the case, the Rays have not improved their offense at all...at least for 2013. As Sox fans we should be happy the Rays made this deal. They just gave up some ground to the Sox, who can still sign Sanchez and end up with depth and quality in their rotation. Maybe not quite as good as the Rays, but almost as good. And with much better offense.
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 12:58 PM EST
- parhunter55
- Posts: 829
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BINGO! Folks here act like 31 is old. Shields should have 4 or 5 good years left. Most prospects never have 4 or 5 good years, EVER.
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 1:02 PM EST
- mef429
- Posts: 5429
- First: 9/10/2006
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In response to parhunter55's comment:
BINGO! Folks here act like 31 is old. Shields should have 4 or 5 good years left. Most prospects never have 4 or 5 good years, EVER.
well his deal is up in 2 years but i get your point.
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 1:45 PM EST
- moonslav59
- Posts: 35065
- First: 9/27/2005
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In response to hill55's comment:
In response to moonslav59's comment:
They also have a habit of dealing players right before the sharply decline or get hurt.
Moon, for what it's worth, the Oakland Athletics reportedly turned down an offer of Wil Myers for Brett Anderson
I guess that shows just how good Anderson is.
Perhaps my suggested offers were not as good as Myers, but I still think a good starting point could be:
1 of Tazawa, Aceves, or Morales
1 of Lavarnway or Salty
1 of Vinicio, Lin or Marrero
Cecchini
I might give them Bradley instead of Cecchini & a SS if the insisted.
https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/278021687289729024
Re: Big Rays Royals trade
posted at 12/10/2012 1:54 PM EST
- hill55
- Posts: 7757
- First: 1/14/2006
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In response to raider3524's comment:
are you for real? prospects? did i miss anyone?
Will Middlebrooks and Felix Doubront entered the 2012 season with their prospect status intact.
