Big Rays Royals trade

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from bald-predictions. Show bald-predictions's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    This could open up space for the Rays to sign Price to a longer-term contract so he can hang with his BFF Longoria in Tampa for years.    And they perhaps end up with somebody that might be better than Upton in the OF.    How does this team continue to do it?    Gotta tip the cap in their general direction.......
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from vtfanofcs. Show vtfanofcs's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to bald-predictions' comment:

    This could open up space for the Rays to sign Price to a longer-term contract so he can hang with his BFF Longoria in Tampa for years.    And they perhaps end up with somebody that might be better than Upton in the OF.    How does this team continue to do it?    Gotta tip the cap in their general direction.......




      I agree that it is possible for them to spend some of this money this winter.  Their history of gaming the system and contributing nothing to overall pot is pretty long now.  I'd be happy to see them spend some money and generate more revenue.  Those crowds are pathetic.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to vtfanofcs' comment:
    [QUOTE]

      The Tampa Bay Welfare Rays strike again.  They refuse to spend and thus sabotage their revenue because the rest of MLB subsidizes them.  There should be salary cap and a salary floor.  Welfare should not be a way of life.  Get a job TB.  I don't care if  Medicaid, Welfare Check, Section 8 Housing and Food Stamps pay more than work.  If Bill and Newt took over MLB, the Rays would  have burned through their 5 year limit long ago.

    [/QUOTE]

    The Rays just got better.

    Welfare smellfare.

    I wish we had traded Lester, Lava & Doubront for these 4 prospects.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Sorry, I've been hearing these same 'what ifs" for 5 years now.

    LOL...I remember 3 or 4 years ago some poster claimed we had "six aces" (which I think at that time included Wakefield) and that became a running joke all season long.

    But I know what you mean. In theory, Beckett/Lester/Lackey/Buchholz/Dice-K could have been an awesome rotation for the past several seasons; in practice, it didn't work out that way. Lester/Buch/Lackey/Doubront/whoever also has the potential to be a very good group next year if everyone stays healthy and puts it all together at once, but we should have learned by now not to count on that.

    TB is much better right now based on results. Their pitching depth is almost awe-inspiring.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not saying it can't all happen at once in 2013, but I'd rather plan on strengthening our rotation to improve our odds that b4-5 will work out well.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to louisthelipp's comment:
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    In response to traven's comment:
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    Agree, the Sox just don't have the horses available to pull off a major deal like that.  Ells is the best they are willing to let go and he isn't worth that much since the gaining team only has control of him for 1 yr.  Not much in the minors to deal either since the Sox showcased all of them this past year due to the huge amount of injuries and none of them really looked that great.  I think their best bet is to try to sign FA Lohse for whatever it takes and hope he can pitch in the AL East.

    [/QUOTE]I wasn't aware the the Sox showcased the 4 Bs this past season. Did they play at Fenway?


    [/QUOTE]

    Traven must've been pounding back when he wrote that.

    Of the top-20 prospects listed, only one of them even played an innings for the RS.

    http://soxprospects.com/

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from vtfanofcs. Show vtfanofcs's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to vtfanofcs' comment:
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      The Tampa Bay Welfare Rays strike again.  They refuse to spend and thus sabotage their revenue because the rest of MLB subsidizes them.  There should be salary cap and a salary floor.  Welfare should not be a way of life.  Get a job TB.  I don't care if  Medicaid, Welfare Check, Section 8 Housing and Food Stamps pay more than work.  If Bill and Newt took over MLB, the Rays would  have burned through their 5 year limit long ago.

    [/QUOTE]

    The Rays just got better.

    Welfare smellfare.

    I wish we had traded Lester, Lava & Doubront for these 4 prospects.

    [/QUOTE]


      The Tampa Bay Sea Leaches live off the tickets paid for by Red Sox fans.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to traven's comment:
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    In response to raider3524's comment:
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    In response to traven's comment:
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    In response to raider3524's comment:
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    In response to traven's comment:
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    In response to raider3524's comment:
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    In response to traven's comment:
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    Agree, the Sox just don't have the horses available to pull off a major deal like that.  Ells is the best they are willing to let go and he isn't worth that much since the gaining team only has control of him for 1 yr.  Not much in the minors to deal either since the Sox showcased all of them this past year due to the huge amount of injuries and none of them really looked that great.  I think their best bet is to try to sign FA Lohse for whatever it takes and hope he can pitch in the AL East.

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    the sox didn't showcase any of our prospects...our best prospects are not even ready for the bigs...what are you talking about?are you in your own world or somthing? 

    [/QUOTE]

    They brought the whole Paw Sox team up at some point during the season...aren't any of them considered prospects?  What do you call them?

    [/QUOTE]
    who?

    carpenter?

    nava?

    kalish?

    gomez?

    mortensen?

    lavarnway?

    are you for real? prospects? did i miss anyone?

    [/QUOTE]

    You missed the two best that the Sox brought up...are you for real???

    [/QUOTE]
    because we are not trading tazawa..and iglesias? ok whatever you say...you lost boy...silly to think you are for real..my bad..you are in your own world..i'll leave you alone...

    [/QUOTE]

    Middlebrooks was a prospect...and so was Ciriaco..I guess you really don't follow the Sox that much do you?

    [/QUOTE]

    You stated that Not much in the minors to deal either since the Sox showcased all of them this past year due to the huge amount of injuries and none of them really looked that great. 

    Not withstanding the fact that we only showcased one of our top-20 prospects, I assume you are using Middlebrooks and Ciriaco to mean all of them.

    So let's assume we have, as you imply, only two prospects.

    1-Is Middlebrooks what you mean by none of them really looked that great?  Seriously, with 15 HRs in 267 ABs?

    2-As for the other name you mentioned, Ciriaco, he had a respectable .705 OPS with excellent speed.  That notwithstanding, he is not a prospect, let alone our prospect.  He spent 6 years in the minors with AZ.  Two years in the PT minor system, and two years with PT.

    This might be the single most uneducated RS post I've seen in here in years.  Every NYY fan in here knows more about our minor league system than you do.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to bobbysu's comment:
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    In response to moonslav59's comment:
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    In response to hill55's comment:
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    What I found interesting was that the Tampa Bay Rays, who have averaged 91.8 wins the last five seasons, apparently are building for the future while the Kansas City Royals, who have averaged 92 losses over the same period, apparently are in a win-now mode.

    I've come to like the trade for each side.

    [/QUOTE]

    TB has always looked to build for the future: see the Kazmir, Garza, Bartlett, and other deals. They are in a constant cycle of trading players about to get their big payday for a slew of prospects. Since the cycle never seems to be broken, they continue to win.

    Perhaps no other team in MLb could afford to trade 2 pitchers like Shields and Davis and still have such a fine rotation on paper.

    KC has had one of the top farm systems for years and years. It's about time they made a push for temporary excellence. They still have a good amount of prospects and young players on their roster to look forward to.

    [/QUOTE]

    Good Post, and like I said the Rays had a heck of a Draft a couple of years ago.

    [/QUOTE]


    People criticize the Rays for trading their best players before they decline and get their big pay raise (usually at about the same time). It's actually a great strategy, since it keeps the young talent replenishing the departing players in an almost perfect cycle.

    They perfected the stockpiling of supplemental comp picks. The 2011 draft will go down in history as the greatest amount of top picks ever given to one team: 12 of the top 89 picks, including 10 of the top 60 and 6 of the top 42 picks.

    They also sign a few International Free Agents.

    The few journeymen type players they sign often have career best or near career best years with the Rays.

    They are the model of running a solid continuous competitive team on a low budget. It would be interesting to see if things would change much if they were given $100M more to play with.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to hill55's comment:
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    In response to TexasPat's comment:

    The Royals lost 92 games last year. They are far from being a .500 team:



    What does that say about an aging team that lost 93 games last year?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    That doesn't really address the question, does it.  I think the writer was making a point that KC gave away half their minor league system for a guy that might not push them over .500.  Saying there is another team in BB that lost 93 (7 teams actually) really doesn't address that point whatsoever.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Not withstanding the fact that we only showcased one of our top-20 prospects, I assume you are using Middlebrooks and Ciriaco to mean all of them.

    Five of the top 13 Red Sox prospects from SoxProspects' Top 20 prospect list on April 2, 2012, saw action with the parent club in 2012:

    http://www.soxprospects.com/history.htm

    Of course, Ryan Kalish did not fit the widely held definition of a prospect.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to bald-predictions' comment:

    This could open up space for the Rays to sign Price to a longer-term contract so he can hang with his BFF Longoria in Tampa for years.    And they perhaps end up with somebody that might be better than Upton in the OF.    How does this team continue to do it?    Gotta tip the cap in their general direction.......


    They are a smart freaking team, that's how they continue to do it.  They have the Branch Rickey philosophy that it is better to trade someone one year too early than one year too late.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Not withstanding the fact that we only showcased one of our top-20 prospects, I assume you are using Middlebrooks and Ciriaco to mean  all of them.


    Five of the top 13 Red Sox prospects from SoxProspects'Top 20 prospect list on April 2, 2012, saw action with the parent club in 2012:

     

    http://www.soxprospects.com/history.htm

    Of course, Ryan Kalish did not fit the widely held definition of a prospect.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think, if you're talking about showcasing, you have to use a recent list.  A guy like WMB simply came up to play.  I think Iglesias came up to get his feet wet, so maybe you'd include him.  Guys like Gomez, Lin, etc., aren't showcased because they have little real value.

    Showcasing implies you are showing the league one of your players because you hope to trade him.  The only one I see that fits that description would be Lavarnway.  Tavern's list of prospects that didn't look good, WMB and Ciriaco, just has to be ridiculed if this country is to stand for anything.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
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    In response to parhunter55's comment:
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    In response to moonslav59's comment:
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    they royals got shields (who is money) and davis (long relief/starter) for a slew of prospects. at the end of the day your getting 2 known commodities for a series of unknowns. won't know for sure "who won" until those prospects step foot into the mlb.

    [/QUOTE]


    Well said.  The Rays are now one pitcher injury away from needing pitching.  Meanwhile, the expectation is that Myers does not play at the MLB level this year, except after July.  That being the case, the Rays have not improved their offense at all...at least for 2013.  As Sox fans we should be happy the Rays made this deal.  They just gave up some ground to the Sox, who can still sign Sanchez and end up with depth and quality in their rotation.  Maybe not quite as good as the Rays, but almost as good.  And with much better offense.

     

    Even after this trade, the Rays have a way better roation than ours...

    1) Price

    2) Hellickson

    3) Niemann

    4) Moore

    5) Cobb

    6) Archer/Ordorizzi (KC's AAA pitcher of the year in 2012) or Montgomery (Was KC's #1 prospect before an off year in '12)

     

    The Rays may not be quite as strong next year, but they always find a way to pick up marginal players to fill the gaps until the proaspects are ready.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Granted.  On paper, it looks like the Rays still have us.  But let's say Lester gets straightened out and Buchholz pitches uninjured, the way he did in 2010.  If the Sox were to sign Sanchez and he pitches as he has over the last 3 seasons, then the Sox top three all compete very well with the Rays's top three.  Then it comes to the bottom of the rotation.  Lots of ifs there, especially for Sox.  but if Moore comes into his own, well then the Rays will definitely have the better rotation.  Perhaps the best in all baseball. 

    The Sox still have the offense over them, though.  Myers is not scheduled to be an offensive help to the Rays in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry, I've been hearing these same 'what ifs" for 5 years now.

    One could just as easily say, "what of Moore blossums this year?" or "What if hellickson get even better?" or "What if Price goes 20-5 with a 2.56 ERA?" Ooops, he just did that, and his WHIP has improved for2 straight years.

    Yes, if we get Sanchez, we can compete, but I still think TB's starting 5 or 6 beats ours with Sanchez. Pitching wins when it counts. 

    [/QUOTE]

     

    Apparently you've stopped reading fully before pontificating.  I believe I did say what if Moore blossums (your spelling, not mine).  Specifically, I wrote:  but if Moore comes into his own, well then the Rays will definitely have the better rotation.

     

    I realize my point was subtle, and somewhat nuanced, but I was trying to say that the Sox could end up with as good a rotation, as I originally posited, and explained how.  And then I recognized it depended on a lot of ifs, especially for the Sox.  And then, I pretty much gave it to the Rays in any case, if Moore comes into his own.  To me, that is pretty much in agreement with your position and a big nod to bobbysu, in deference to his very salient point about Moore.

    Taking on softy has made you defensive and your reading/understanding of views not your own careless and lazy.  You'd rather opt for a fight than recognize someone else's point of view, even when it essentially agrees with yours.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
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    In response to moonslav59's comment:
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    In response to parhunter55's comment:
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    In response to moonslav59's comment:
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    they royals got shields (who is money) and davis (long relief/starter) for a slew of prospects. at the end of the day your getting 2 known commodities for a series of unknowns. won't know for sure "who won" until those prospects step foot into the mlb.

    [/QUOTE]


    Well said.  The Rays are now one pitcher injury away from needing pitching.  Meanwhile, the expectation is that Myers does not play at the MLB level this year, except after July.  That being the case, the Rays have not improved their offense at all...at least for 2013.  As Sox fans we should be happy the Rays made this deal.  They just gave up some ground to the Sox, who can still sign Sanchez and end up with depth and quality in their rotation.  Maybe not quite as good as the Rays, but almost as good.  And with much better offense.

     

    Even after this trade, the Rays have a way better roation than ours...

    1) Price

    2) Hellickson

    3) Niemann

    4) Moore

    5) Cobb

    6) Archer/Ordorizzi (KC's AAA pitcher of the year in 2012) or Montgomery (Was KC's #1 prospect before an off year in '12)

     

    The Rays may not be quite as strong next year, but they always find a way to pick up marginal players to fill the gaps until the proaspects are ready.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Granted.  On paper, it looks like the Rays still have us.  But let's say Lester gets straightened out and Buchholz pitches uninjured, the way he did in 2010.  If the Sox were to sign Sanchez and he pitches as he has over the last 3 seasons, then the Sox top three all compete very well with the Rays's top three.  Then it comes to the bottom of the rotation.  Lots of ifs there, especially for Sox.  but if Moore comes into his own, well then the Rays will definitely have the better rotation.  Perhaps the best in all baseball. 

    The Sox still have the offense over them, though.  Myers is not scheduled to be an offensive help to the Rays in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry, I've been hearing these same 'what ifs" for 5 years now.

    One could just as easily say, "what of Moore blossums this year?" or "What if hellickson get even better?" or "What if Price goes 20-5 with a 2.56 ERA?" Ooops, he just did that, and his WHIP has improved for2 straight years.

    Yes, if we get Sanchez, we can compete, but I still think TB's starting 5 or 6 beats ours with Sanchez. Pitching wins when it counts. 

    [/QUOTE]

     

    Apparently you've stopped reading fully before pontificating.  I believe I did say what if Moore blossums (your spelling, not mine).  Specifically, I wrote:  but if Moore comes into his own, well then the Rays will definitely have the better rotation.

     

    I realize my point was subtle, and somewhat nuanced, but I was trying to say that the Sox could end up with as good a rotation, as I originally posited, and explained how.  And then I recognized it depended on a lot of ifs, especially for the Sox.  And then, I pretty much gave it to the Rays in any case, if Moore comes into his own.  To me, that is pretty much in agreement with your position and a big nod to bobbysu, in deference to his very salient point about Moore.

    Taking on softy has made you defensive and your reading/understanding of views not your own careless and lazy.  You'd rather opt for a fight than recognize someone else's point of view, even when it essentially agrees with yours.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Unlike softy, I can admit I made a mistake. Sorry.

    You did mention Moore.

    I guess I still think the Rays staff is better even if Moore repeats 2012.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to vtfanofcs' comment:
    [QUOTE]

      The Tampa Bay Welfare Rays strike again.  They refuse to spend and thus sabotage their revenue because the rest of MLB subsidizes them.  There should be salary cap and a salary floor.  Welfare should not be a way of life.  Get a job TB.  I don't care if  Medicaid, Welfare Check, Section 8 Housing and Food Stamps pay more than work.  If Bill and Newt took over MLB, the Rays would  have burned through their 5 year limit long ago.

    [/QUOTE]

    The Rays just got better.

    Welfare smellfare.

    I wish we had traded Lester, Lava & Doubront for these 4 prospects.

    [/QUOTE]

    Just because Myers and some other fine prospects left, doesn't mean they are out of prospects.  If they said Zimmer and Starling for Lester, would you say no?  And I think it's possible you could entice them into another trade.  They might be pot-committed at this point.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to TexasPat's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
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    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    they royals got shields (who is money) and davis (long relief/starter) for a slew of prospects. at the end of the day your getting 2 known commodities for a series of unknowns. won't know for sure "who won" until those prospects step foot into the mlb.

    [/QUOTE]


    Well said.  The Rays are now one pitcher injury away from needing pitching.  Meanwhile, the expectation is that Myers does not play at the MLB level this year, except after July.  That being the case, the Rays have not improved their offense at all...at least for 2013.  As Sox fans we should be happy the Rays made this deal.  They just gave up some ground to the Sox, who can still sign Sanchez and end up with depth and quality in their rotation.  Maybe not quite as good as the Rays, but almost as good.  And with much better offense.

     

    Even after this trade, the Rays have a way better roation than ours...

    1) Price

    2) Hellickson

    3) Niemann

    4) Moore

    5) Cobb

    6) Archer/Ordorizzi (KC's AAA pitcher of the year in 2012) or Montgomery (Was KC's #1 prospect before an off year in '12)

     

    The Rays may not be quite as strong next year, but they always find a way to pick up marginal players to fill the gaps until the proaspects are ready.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Granted.  On paper, it looks like the Rays still have us.  But let's say Lester gets straightened out and Buchholz pitches uninjured, the way he did in 2010.  If the Sox were to sign Sanchez and he pitches as he has over the last 3 seasons, then the Sox top three all compete very well with the Rays's top three.  Then it comes to the bottom of the rotation.  Lots of ifs there, especially for Sox.  but if Moore comes into his own, well then the Rays will definitely have the better rotation.  Perhaps the best in all baseball. 

    The Sox still have the offense over them, though.  Myers is not scheduled to be an offensive help to the Rays in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

         What difference does it make if the Sox are better than the Rays, if they can't beat Toronto, Baltimore, or the Yankees? This team needs to forget this "bridge" BS, and stop looking for quick fixes. Fans won't mind a couple of down seasons, so long as the Red Sox have a plan, and have some good prospects on the farm to impliment the plan.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Well, first they have to be better than ANY team that is in the division to see any improvement in the standings.  Second, if you are following the thread here, the consensus is that the Rays have a superior rotation, even with Shields and Davis traded away, and pitching wins.  Following logically, then, if the Sox do better than the Rays specifically, then they do better than the team in the division with the best starting staff.  That probably means they are at or very near the top of the division at years end.

    Or do you think that Baltimore and Toronto are going to be better than the Rays next season?  I don't think Toronto has improved quite that much and I just don't believe the Orioles are going to go wire to wire like they did last year.  I could be wrong, of course, but I think the Rays and Yanks are still the teams to beat. 

    If I were Ben I would go hard after Sanchez in an effort to compete with all the teams in the ALE.  It's just that we are talking about the Rays in this thread.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
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    In response to moonslav59's comment:
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    they royals got shields (who is money) and davis (long relief/starter) for a slew of prospects. at the end of the day your getting 2 known commodities for a series of unknowns. won't know for sure "who won" until those prospects step foot into the mlb.

    [/QUOTE]


    Well said.  The Rays are now one pitcher injury away from needing pitching.  Meanwhile, the expectation is that Myers does not play at the MLB level this year, except after July.  That being the case, the Rays have not improved their offense at all...at least for 2013.  As Sox fans we should be happy the Rays made this deal.  They just gave up some ground to the Sox, who can still sign Sanchez and end up with depth and quality in their rotation.  Maybe not quite as good as the Rays, but almost as good.  And with much better offense.

     

    Even after this trade, the Rays have a way better roation than ours...

    1) Price

    2) Hellickson

    3) Niemann

    4) Moore

    5) Cobb

    6) Archer/Ordorizzi (KC's AAA pitcher of the year in 2012) or Montgomery (Was KC's #1 prospect before an off year in '12)

     

    The Rays may not be quite as strong next year, but they always find a way to pick up marginal players to fill the gaps until the proaspects are ready.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Granted.  On paper, it looks like the Rays still have us.  But let's say Lester gets straightened out and Buchholz pitches uninjured, the way he did in 2010.  If the Sox were to sign Sanchez and he pitches as he has over the last 3 seasons, then the Sox top three all compete very well with the Rays's top three.  Then it comes to the bottom of the rotation.  Lots of ifs there, especially for Sox.  but if Moore comes into his own, well then the Rays will definitely have the better rotation.  Perhaps the best in all baseball. 

    The Sox still have the offense over them, though.  Myers is not scheduled to be an offensive help to the Rays in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry, I've been hearing these same 'what ifs" for 5 years now.

    One could just as easily say, "what of Moore blossums this year?" or "What if hellickson get even better?" or "What if Price goes 20-5 with a 2.56 ERA?" Ooops, he just did that, and his WHIP has improved for2 straight years.

    Yes, if we get Sanchez, we can compete, but I still think TB's starting 5 or 6 beats ours with Sanchez. Pitching wins when it counts. 

    [/QUOTE]

     

    Apparently you've stopped reading fully before pontificating.  I believe I did say what if Moore blossums (your spelling, not mine).  Specifically, I wrote:  but if Moore comes into his own, well then the Rays will definitely have the better rotation.

     

    I realize my point was subtle, and somewhat nuanced, but I was trying to say that the Sox could end up with as good a rotation, as I originally posited, and explained how.  And then I recognized it depended on a lot of ifs, especially for the Sox.  And then, I pretty much gave it to the Rays in any case, if Moore comes into his own.  To me, that is pretty much in agreement with your position and a big nod to bobbysu, in deference to his very salient point about Moore.

    Taking on softy has made you defensive and your reading/understanding of views not your own careless and lazy.  You'd rather opt for a fight than recognize someone else's point of view, even when it essentially agrees with yours.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Unlike softy, I can admit I made a mistake. Sorry.

    You did mention Moore.

    I guess I still think the Rays staff is better even if Moore repeats 2012.

    [/QUOTE]


    And I admit to being in a feisty mood this evening.  I agree that the Rays probably do have the better rotation even if Moore repeats his 2012, but there is a bit less of a safety net there for the Rays, Shields pitched a lot of quality innings for them that they do not get back, at least in 2013.  Meanwhile, the Sox have nowhere to go, but up.  And getting Sanchez, the best starter left on the FA market at this point, IMO, would be a good move in trying to compete with the Rays.  Getting Floyd or Dempster, or Jackson, or Marcum, or (heaven forbid) Capuano or Harrang, does nothing to close that gap, IMO.

    For the record, I like what the Rays did for themselves.  The trade fit their strategy perfectly, and I expect it to work out brilliantly for them, as it almost always does.  But I like what KC did for themselves.  Not only did they improve themselves, for the short term, but they prevented a few other teams in an otherwise mediocre division, from improving themselves.  At least Detroit and Chicago were not able to get Shields.  And let's not forget that Wade Davis was once as big a prospect as David Price.  If KC elects to put him in the rotation and he builds on the success he found in the bullpen last season, they get two decent starters to fit into the top end of their rotation.  Wish the Sox could swing something like that.  I am not happy with just one acquisition for the starting staff.  I have always thought they needed two good starters.  I had hoped that it would be Haren and Sanchez.  Will be disappointed but not surprised if it is neither.  And I hope Ben does NOT cave into pressure and trade away one of his future pieces for any of the so-so starters that might be available via trade.  That market is just as inflated as the FA market.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to vtfanofcs' comment:
    [QUOTE]

      The Tampa Bay Welfare Rays strike again.  They refuse to spend and thus sabotage their revenue because the rest of MLB subsidizes them.  There should be salary cap and a salary floor.  Welfare should not be a way of life.  Get a job TB.  I don't care if  Medicaid, Welfare Check, Section 8 Housing and Food Stamps pay more than work.  If Bill and Newt took over MLB, the Rays would  have burned through their 5 year limit long ago.

    [/QUOTE]

    The Rays just got better.

    Welfare smellfare.

    I wish we had traded Lester, Lava & Doubront for these 4 prospects.

    [/QUOTE]

    Just because Myers and some other fine prospects left, doesn't mean they are out of prospects.  If they said Zimmer and Starling for Lester, would you say no?  And I think it's possible you could entice them into another trade.  They might be pot-committed at this point.

    [/QUOTE]


    The calculation is just too different.  Though Shields and Lester look somewhat comparable in a comparison of talent and in what the receiving team would consider their value to be, Shields meant much less to Tampa than Lester does to the Sox.  If the Sox traded Lester for prospects I would be disappointed, if not downright upset.  Lester is a proven quality pitcher they would have been selling low on.  AND he is the second best starter on their staff; a staff that is desperate for quality innings.  A trade of Lester for someone not yet ready for prime time would hurt the Sox in the near future for only the promise that they might be better in 2014 and beyond.  The Rays, meanwhile, will only be worse next season if one of their top starters gets injured, and have greatly improved their chances of being competetive in 2014 and beyond, in part because they gave up another quality arm in Davis.  Remember, he came up with the same hoopla Price and Moore came up with.  The Sox don't even have the equivalent to give up.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    they royals got shields (who is money) and davis (long relief/starter) for a slew of prospects. at the end of the day your getting 2 known commodities for a series of unknowns. won't know for sure "who won" until those prospects step foot into the mlb.

    [/QUOTE]


    Well said.  The Rays are now one pitcher injury away from needing pitching.  Meanwhile, the expectation is that Myers does not play at the MLB level this year, except after July.  That being the case, the Rays have not improved their offense at all...at least for 2013.  As Sox fans we should be happy the Rays made this deal.  They just gave up some ground to the Sox, who can still sign Sanchez and end up with depth and quality in their rotation.  Maybe not quite as good as the Rays, but almost as good.  And with much better offense.

     

    Even after this trade, the Rays have a way better roation than ours...

    1) Price

    2) Hellickson

    3) Niemann

    4) Moore

    5) Cobb

    6) Archer/Ordorizzi (KC's AAA pitcher of the year in 2012) or Montgomery (Was KC's #1 prospect before an off year in '12)

     

    The Rays may not be quite as strong next year, but they always find a way to pick up marginal players to fill the gaps until the proaspects are ready.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Granted.  On paper, it looks like the Rays still have us.  But let's say Lester gets straightened out and Buchholz pitches uninjured, the way he did in 2010.  If the Sox were to sign Sanchez and he pitches as he has over the last 3 seasons, then the Sox top three all compete very well with the Rays's top three.  Then it comes to the bottom of the rotation.  Lots of ifs there, especially for Sox.  but if Moore comes into his own, well then the Rays will definitely have the better rotation.  Perhaps the best in all baseball. 

    The Sox still have the offense over them, though.  Myers is not scheduled to be an offensive help to the Rays in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry, I've been hearing these same 'what ifs" for 5 years now.

    One could just as easily say, "what of Moore blossums this year?" or "What if hellickson get even better?" or "What if Price goes 20-5 with a 2.56 ERA?" Ooops, he just did that, and his WHIP has improved for2 straight years.

    Yes, if we get Sanchez, we can compete, but I still think TB's starting 5 or 6 beats ours with Sanchez. Pitching wins when it counts. 

    [/QUOTE]

     

    Apparently you've stopped reading fully before pontificating.  I believe I did say what if Moore blossums (your spelling, not mine).  Specifically, I wrote:  but if Moore comes into his own, well then the Rays will definitely have the better rotation.

     

    I realize my point was subtle, and somewhat nuanced, but I was trying to say that the Sox could end up with as good a rotation, as I originally posited, and explained how.  And then I recognized it depended on a lot of ifs, especially for the Sox.  And then, I pretty much gave it to the Rays in any case, if Moore comes into his own.  To me, that is pretty much in agreement with your position and a big nod to bobbysu, in deference to his very salient point about Moore.

    Taking on softy has made you defensive and your reading/understanding of views not your own careless and lazy.  You'd rather opt for a fight than recognize someone else's point of view, even when it essentially agrees with yours.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Unlike softy, I can admit I made a mistake. Sorry.

    You did mention Moore.

    I guess I still think the Rays staff is better even if Moore repeats 2012.

    [/QUOTE]


    And I admit to being in a feisty mood this evening.  I agree that the Rays probably do have the better rotation even if Moore repeats his 2012, but there is a bit less of a safety net there for the Rays, Shields pitched a lot of quality innings for them that they do not get back, at least in 2013.  Meanwhile, the Sox have nowhere to go, but up.  And getting Sanchez, the best starter left on the FA market at this point, IMO, would be a good move in trying to compete with the Rays.  Getting Floyd or Dempster, or Jackson, or Marcum, or (heaven forbid) Capuano or Harrang, does nothing to close that gap, IMO.

    For the record, I like what the Rays did for themselves.  The trade fit their strategy perfectly, and I expect it to work out brilliantly for them, as it almost always does.  But I like what KC did for themselves.  Not only did they improve themselves, for the short term, but they prevented a few other teams in an otherwise mediocre division, from improving themselves.  At least Detroit and Chicago were not able to get Shields.  And let's not forget that Wade Davis was once as big a prospect as David Price.  If KC elects to put him in the rotation and he builds on the success he found in the bullpen last season, they get two decent starters to fit into the top end of their rotation.  Wish the Sox could swing something like that.  I am not happy with just one acquisition for the starting staff.  I have always thought they needed two good starters.  I had hoped that it would be Haren and Sanchez.  Will be disappointed but not surprised if it is neither.  And I hope Ben does NOT cave into pressure and trade away one of his future pieces for any of the so-so starters that might be available via trade.  That market is just as inflated as the FA market.

    [/QUOTE]

    Good reply. I like what Kc did too. Wade davis is a quality pitcher. They realized they had been striving for the future for too long. It was time to cash in

    I do not think Ben should rush into a deal out of desperation, since I don't see us being really serious contenders for a ring, even with Sanchez...maybe Sanchez & J Upton

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    Seriosuly, is ther anyone who could NOT predict these two teams getting together on a trade?  They matched up so perfectly...

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    moon,

    One of the reasons I always liked the idea of Ben getting two good starters is that he could then make Doubront available in a trade, perhaps for J. Upton.  Ells, Bradley and Douby for Upton and a PTBNL might have actually been the start to a deal.  Then we might have seen the Sox have both Sanchez and Upton, which I agree would have made them, if not instant contenders, at least a team worth the price of admission.  But letting Haren go early, and for so little (in terms of total dollars and years commited), and not signing Sanchez BEFORE Grienke set the price (though I recognize that Ben may not have had any choice in the matter) makes your vision, unfortunately, highly unlikely.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to vtfanofcs' comment:
    [QUOTE]

      The Tampa Bay Welfare Rays strike again.  They refuse to spend and thus sabotage their revenue because the rest of MLB subsidizes them.  There should be salary cap and a salary floor.  Welfare should not be a way of life.  Get a job TB.  I don't care if  Medicaid, Welfare Check, Section 8 Housing and Food Stamps pay more than work.  If Bill and Newt took over MLB, the Rays would  have burned through their 5 year limit long ago.

    [/QUOTE]

    The Rays just got better.

    Welfare smellfare.

    I wish we had traded Lester, Lava & Doubront for these 4 prospects.

    [/QUOTE]

    Just because Myers and some other fine prospects left, doesn't mean they are out of prospects.  If they said Zimmer and Starling for Lester, would you say no?  And I think it's possible you could entice them into another trade.  They might be pot-committed at this point.

    [/QUOTE]


    The calculation is just too different.  Though Shields and Lester look somewhat comparable in a comparison of talent and in what the receiving team would consider their value to be, Shields meant much less to Tampa than Lester does to the Sox.  If the Sox traded Lester for prospects I would be disappointed, if not downright upset.  Lester is a proven quality pitcher they would have been selling low on.  AND he is the second best starter on their staff; a staff that is desperate for quality innings.  A trade of Lester for someone not yet ready for prime time would hurt the Sox in the near future for only the promise that they might be better in 2014 and beyond.  The Rays, meanwhile, will only be worse next season if one of their top starters gets injured, and have greatly improved their chances of being competetive in 2014 and beyond, in part because they gave up another quality arm in Davis.  Remember, he came up with the same hoopla Price and Moore came up with.  The Sox don't even have the equivalent to give up.

    [/QUOTE]


    The Sox just didnt match up well withe the Royals. 2 teams that are in need of pitching. Tampa, with their stockpile of pitchers could easily do this move and not bat an eye at it.

    I hope BC is working on a quality starter, not some retred like Dempster. That will do NOTHING for this rotation. Id rather start Morales or someone than sign some mid 30's guy for 3 years and 12M per.

    Rays go some solid prospects, which def made them better if they work out. We'll have to wait a year or two to see who "won" this trade.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    moon,

    One of the reasons I always liked the idea of Ben getting two good starters is that he could then make Doubront available in a trade, perhaps for J. Upton.  Ells, Bradley and Douby for Upton and a PTBNL might have actually been the start to a deal.  Then we might have seen the Sox have both Sanchez and Upton, which I agree would have made them, if not instant contenders, at least a team worth the price of admission.  But letting Haren go early, and for so little (in terms of total dollars and years commited), and not signing Sanchez BEFORE Grienke set the price (though I recognize that Ben may not have had any choice in the matter) makes your vision, unfortunately, highly unlikely.

    [/QUOTE]

    Ive been saying this all winter.

    1) We have the money to sign SPs that other teams do not.

    2) Other teams need pitching as much as we do.

    3) We sign 2 starters and trade a cheap pitcher or two (out of Doubie, Morales, Aceves, and Tazawa) along with some prospects for a low or lower-than-FA cost legitimat 3/4 slot hitter. I even have mentioned J upton almost as much as Brett Anderson.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    The calculation is just too different.  Though Shields and Lester look somewhat comparable in a comparison of talent and in what the receiving team would consider their value to be, Shields meant much less to Tampa than Lester does to the Sox.  If the Sox traded Lester for prospects I would be disappointed, if not downright upset.  Lester is a proven quality pitcher they would have been selling low on.  AND he is the second best starter on their staff; a staff that is desperate for quality innings.  A trade of Lester for someone not yet ready for prime time would hurt the Sox in the near future for only the promise that they might be better in 2014 and beyond.  The Rays, meanwhile, will only be worse next season if one of their top starters gets injured, and have greatly improved their chances of being competetive in 2014 and beyond, in part because they gave up another quality arm in Davis.  Remember, he came up with the same hoopla Price and Moore came up with.  The Sox don't even have the equivalent to give up.

    [/QUOTE]

    The difference between TB and the Sox is that the Sox could replace Lester with A Sanchez. Tb could not.

    ______________________________________________________________________________


    The Sox just didnt match up well withe the Royals. 2 teams that are in need of pitching. Tampa, with their stockpile of pitchers could easily do this move and not bat an eye at it.

    I hope BC is working on a quality starter, not some retred like Dempster. That will do NOTHING for this rotation. Id rather start Morales or someone than sign some mid 30's guy for 3 years and 12M per.

    Rays go some solid prospects, which def made them better if they work out. We'll have to wait a year or two to see who "won" this trade.

    We could have traded Lester, and 1 or 2 from Doubront, Morales, Aceves, or Tazawa (if 1, add Lava or Brentz) to KC, and then signed A Sanchez and S Marcum (or not my choices, but Dempster or Lohse)

    My guess is that both win, unless you judge wins by only rings.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Big Rays Royals trade

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    moon,

    One of the reasons I always liked the idea of Ben getting two good starters is that he could then make Doubront available in a trade, perhaps for J. Upton.  Ells, Bradley and Douby for Upton and a PTBNL might have actually been the start to a deal.  Then we might have seen the Sox have both Sanchez and Upton, which I agree would have made them, if not instant contenders, at least a team worth the price of admission.  But letting Haren go early, and for so little (in terms of total dollars and years commited), and not signing Sanchez BEFORE Grienke set the price (though I recognize that Ben may not have had any choice in the matter) makes your vision, unfortunately, highly unlikely.

    [/QUOTE]

    Ive been saying this all winter.

    1) We have the money to sign SPs that other teams do not.

    2) Other teams need pitching as much as we do.

    3) We sign 2 starters and trade a cheap pitcher or two (out of Doubie, Morales, Aceves, and Tazawa) along with some prospects for a low or lower-than-FA cost legitimat 3/4 slot hitter. I even have mentioned J upton almost as much as Brett Anderson.

    [/QUOTE]


    WMB will suely be in any Upton discussion. Probably Doubront as well as a SS (maybe Bogaerts). They have plenty of OF help. They dont really need any.

     
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