Black Sox or Choke artists?

  1. This post has been removed.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: Black Sox or Choke artists?

    The team has no chemistry.  Made up primarily of winners who are old and gimpy we have no resilience.  Look at them being schooled by a 40 million dollar payroll versus a bloated 175 million dollar one.  It is a study in assessing talent and superior game management. The catering by Tito worked when this team was young and brash as in 2004 and it was the most magnificent accomplishment in sports history but right now it has all come down. The team is bloated and following  the sickening Yankee model.  I liked it the 2004 way.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Black Sox or Choke artists?

    Seeing glimmers of the impending doom. The virus has fully taken over even Lester.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: Black Sox or Choke artists?

    Nobody who is a red sox fan wants to see this happen, it is however the nature of sports in Boston to criticize it. We have a 175 million dollar payroll and a team that appears soft.  It is something to be mad about.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from marstan. Show marstan's posts

    Re: Black Sox or Choke artists?

    IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS THAT FRANCONA IS NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE
    IN MANAGERIAL ABILITY AS LEYLAND OR MADDON, OR EVEN
    SCIOSCIA. FRANCONA HAS BEEN GIVEN A $175 M CLUB AND
    JUST CANNOT JUICE THEM ENOUGH FOR THEM TO PERFORM UP
    TO EXPECTATIONS. TEAMS WITH 1/2 OR 1/3 OF THE SOX PAYROLL
    ARE KICKING OUR BEHIND. WE CAN'T DEPEND ON THE YANKS LOSING
    OR OTHER TEAMS DOING OUR WORK FOR US.
    ** PLAYERS I WOULD LIKE TO SEE GONE.NEXT YEAR [BUT PROBABLY
    WON'T BE} 1. YOUKILIS 2. DREW 3. WAKE 4. VARITEK
    5. LACKEY 6. CC [ AN IMPOSSIBILITY ] 7. MC DONALD 8. LOWRIE
    9. ALBERS 10. JENKS 11.MILLER 12. WEILAND
    WHATTA BUNCH OF SAD SACKS !! GETTING THEIR BUTTS KICKED
    BY THE RAYS IN THEIR OWN HOUSE. HOW MUCH WORSE CAN IT
    GET....AND WE HAVE WAKE GOING SUNDAY. EXPECT US TO BE
    DOWN 5 RUNS OR SO EARLY. WAKE BEATING PRICE....ITS A
    VERY LONG SHOT.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Black Sox or Choke artists?

    In Response to www.boston.com/community/forums.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aSportsForum%3a81df60f3-70ee-4ca3-9336-8cf2c0a8301aDiscussion%3a6b716a77-f429-48b6-93e8-909dd17679db&plckFindPostKey=Cat:SportsForum:81df60f3-70ee-4ca3-9336-8cf2c0a8301aDiscussion:6b716a77-f429-48b6-93e8-909dd17679dbPost:22fcea4d-5cac-4e98-84b3-bb5c12c3ba63">Black Sox or Choke artists?:
    [QUOTE]Doesn't matter any more. I do NOT want to see a single player on the Red Sox Roster on the team next year. These guys are the biggest chokes for the dollar of all time. I have never seen bodies break down consistantly for two years running before. Tito should be fired for not beating the crap out of these chokers like Billy Martin would have done.
    Posted by teddybaseball009[/QUOTE] i get your frustration, but it's kinda sad you would associate your team with one the most shameful acts in BB history..
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from tbrod. Show tbrod's posts

    Re: Black Sox or Choke artists?

    Maddon and the Rays do it year after year on a shoestring,despite losing key player after key player.
    The Sox have become the Yankees, buying people like Crawford, just to get them, despite not being any kind of fit.
    I wonder if the Rays would trade Desmond Jenning for Crawford, even if the Sox picked up Crawford's entire contract? Ha! Ha!

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from jozee76. Show jozee76's posts

    Re: Black Sox or Choke artists?

    Zippo in the heart department!

     
  9. This post has been removed.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from WilcyMoore. Show WilcyMoore's posts

    Re: Black Sox or Choke artists?

    In Response to Re: Black Sox or Choke artists?:
    [QUOTE]The team has no chemistry.  Made up primarily of winners who are old and gimpy we have no resilience.  Look at them being schooled by a 40 million dollar payroll versus a bloated 175 million dollar one.  It is a study in assessing talent and superior game management. The catering by Tito worked when this team was young and brash as in 2004 and it was the most magnificent accomplishment in sports history but right now it has all come down. The team is bloated and following  the sickening Yankee model.  I liked it the 2004 way.
    Posted by concord27[/QUOTE] 

    The miracle on dirt and grass in 2004 was a matter of pure luck.  The team was neither young nor brash with zero home grown players other than Trot Nixon and he was not young on the team.  Their starting pitchers did not miss a single start.  That's unbelievably pure luck.  Their prima donna iconic shortstop refused to play when he could forcing the GM to trade him for a cluster of rental players who contributed significantly over the final 2 months and in the postseason and were gone.  That's pure luck.  The team won its first championship in decades because they were not the Boston Red Sox with only the aforementioned Nixon appearing in the World Series.  That's obviously the fewest in the history of the sport and yes, it's pure luck. 

    They had to convince Curtis Montague Schilling to agree to be traded back to the team which had originally drafted him and convince him that he could pitch in their bandbox ballpark.  He ultimately was sold, but it was not easy just as it was difficult to convince a steroid infested closer named Foulke to join the team.  They did get one year out of him before he predictably became unglued and unproductive.  Those are examples of pure luck. 

    They had to steal a guy who was under contract to play for a team in Japan named Millar and have him break his legal obligation.  He did and that's pure luck.  They paired a steroid infested outfielder named Ramirez with a steroid infested DH named David Ortiz to form a formidable righty/lefty power combination.  That's pure luck because Ortiz could have been Jeremy Giambi revisited, but was much more than that.  The St. Louis Cardinals were missing their ace, Chris Carpenter and their best reliever, Steve Kline, due to injury.  That's pure luck.   The 2004 way was a one in a million confluence of extraordinary events and factors which culminated in an end to decades of futility and frustration and it is emblematic of the old saying that it's better to be lucky than it is to be good. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from gareman2. Show gareman2's posts

    Re: Black Sox or Choke artists?

    In Response to Re: Black Sox or Choke artists?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Black Sox or Choke artists? :   The miracle on dirt and grass in 2004 was a matter of pure luck.  The team was neither young nor brash with zero home grown players other than Trot Nixon and he was not young on the team.  Their starting pitchers did not miss a single start.  That's unbelievably pure luck.  Their prima donna iconic shortstop refused to play when he could forcing the GM to trade him for a cluster of rental players who contributed significantly over the final 2 months and in the postseason and were gone.  That's pure luck.  The team won its first championship in decades because they were not the Boston Red Sox with only the aforementioned Nixon appearing in the World Series.  That's obviously the fewest in the history of the sport and yes, it's pure luck.  They had to convince Curtis Montague Schilling to agree to be traded back to the team which had originally drafted him and convince him that he could pitch in their bandbox ballpark.  He ultimately was sold, but it was not easy just as it was difficult to convince a steroid infested closer named Foulke to join the team.  They did get one year out of him before he predictably became unglued and unproductive.  Those are examples of pure luck.  They had to steal a guy who was under contract to play for a team in Japan named Millar and have him break his legal obligation.  He did and that's pure luck.  They paired a steroid infested outfielder named Ramirez with a steroid infested DH named David Ortiz to form a formidable righty/lefty power combination.  That's pure luck because Ortiz could have been Jeremy Giambi revisited, but was much more than that.  The St. Louis Cardinals were missing their ace, Chris Carpenter and their best reliever, Steve Kline, due to injury.  That's pure luck.   The 2004 way was a one in a million confluence of extraordinary events and factors which culminated in an end to decades of futility and frustration and it is emblematic of the old saying that it's better to be lucky than it is to be good. 
    Posted by WilcyMoore[/QUOTE]

    WilcyMoore you do your best to take all the joy out of revisiitng the joy of yrs past.  Not so sure it was all due to luck.  There was talent.  The was opportunity to be taken.  Sure, search for the negativity .... search heard enough and there is some to be found (or made up) but some of us search and reflect on the positives.
     
  12. This post has been removed.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: Black Sox or Choke artists?

    Wilcy,
    The team was younger and rebellious with a mission to beat the Yankees.  No one said the team was all home grown but it was put together with skill and care. I merely stated they are better off developing players and making trades not free agent signings. To act that this team is not much different and just luckier than the one we have today is startlingly out of touch with reality.  I mean what are you looking at it is night and day.


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from WilcyMoore. Show WilcyMoore's posts

    Re: Black Sox or Choke artists?

    This team has been on a mission to beat the Yankees all and their 11 and 4 record in head to head matchups which is the franchise's best in years reflects that does it not?  The 2004 team was not put together with skill and care in that a number of players were inherited highly compensated free agents or simply holdovers from the previous ownership and management group.   Their names would have to include Martinez, Ramirez, Damon, Nixon, Lowe, Varitek,  Wakefield and yes, the invisible Garciaparra.  The latter is particularly significant in that his demeanor and his obvious arrogance left the GM absolutely no choice, but to get rid of him.  It happened right at the trade deadline and the best deal that could be made involved 3 teams with players like Orlando Cabrera, Dave Roberts and Doug M added to the roster.  The local media spin was that the GM was courageous to trade an icon.  The reality was that he had absolutely no other option.   

    They were all ultimately productive and important contributors, but they were not added to the roster based on either skill nor care.  They were brought in out of absolute necessity as were Foulke (closer by committee was not the answer nor was B. Y. Kim) and Schilling to add to the rotation because they knew that they needed another "potential ace" to join the declining Pedro to have any chance of competing successfully with the other teams in the AL.  The Bill Muellers, the Mark Bellhorns, Doug Mirabellis, Pokey Reeses, Kevin Millars, David Ortizes, et. al. were simply necessary players to fill obvious needs.  Mueller was brought in because Youkilis was not considered good enough to be an everyday 3B at the big league level.  Ortiz was destined to be a DH, hence adding Millar and old veterans Embree and Timlin both featured ERA's of 4.13 in 2004 which would be considered mediocre had the team not won.  While it's subjective as to who were the most important players on the 2004 team, I do not believe that it is not unreasonable to suggest that newcomers like Schilling, Foulke and 2 month rentals like Cabrera and Roberts played big roles. 

    Tim Wakefield's implosion in the postseason throughout his career is often characterized by the local media as heroic and taking one, two, three or four for the team.  It's ludicrous.  Jason Varitek's 4 year $40 MM contract in which his offensive numbers declined precipitously year after year was justified under the mantra of "he calls a good game" and that's good enough.  That's an absurd defense for grossly overpaying a player whose performance was mediocre at best.   One Boston writer had the audacity to suggest that one player transaction had doomed the franchise to decades of mediocrity, frustration and failure.  That's an absolutely ridiculous notion, but it was apparently widely embraced as an excuse for other obvious and less savory shortcomings. 

    My observations and viewpoints are simply intended to suggest that the media often is responsible for framing fan opinions is guilty of simply ignoring negative facts and reality and "spinning" those as positives.  It is the nature of the world in which we live and is not exclusive to the Boston market in which I happen to live.  I would expect that as a self-proclaimed critical thinker and objective observer that I would find a similar pattern everywhere. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from athens7676. Show athens7676's posts

    Re: Black Sox or Choke artists?

    Wow Wilcy...you make it sound like they just threw darts at a board when it came to selecting players for the 2004 team. That was not "just luck" as you put it... but a very talented team, with a good bullpen (steriod infused closer or not...everyone was on the juice then...so in my mind the playing field was level, this whole idea of "tarnished" titles is silly.) and a lot of heart. They were able in that ALCS to take advantage of the fact that Joe Torre had KILLED his only 2 quality relief guys during the season, and play AMAZING baseball in winning 8 straight playoff games. If you think an injury to Steve Kline of all people was a big advantage for the Sox in the '04 Series, your nuts.
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share