Boston Globe's Inside the collapse - Your thoughts?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jarretfromportsmouth. Show jarretfromportsmouth's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    In Response to Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems, Beckett, Lester, and Lackey indifference(drinking beer,eating fried chicken,playing video games in the clubhouse during game):
    [QUOTE]I loved the story.  Nasty stuff.  But I'm not so sure cleaning house is the fix if only because these same players were terrific up until September, even with the slow start.  There is a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  [/QUOTE]

    Totally agree, changes need to be made, but to completely "over-haul" a team that missed the playoffs by 1 game, and for 4 months was the best team in baseball might not be a good idea.

    I think Francona leaving may have been needed, if the players weren't listening to him, then it's time for a change.  

    They do need a player who can lead...not by example like Pedroia either, a guy who the players respect and can command respect.

    I read a great story about Kirk Gibson when he went to the Dodgers in '88, they put eye black inside the rim of his ball hat and when it took it off it left a black line around his head.  he freaked out and shouted at everyone and said, "this is why you guys are a 4th place team".  His presence commanded respect, he had a great year on the field and the team rallied around his leadership...he brought accountability and hustle to the Dodgers and they ended up winning thw World Series.



     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    In Response to Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems, Beckett, Lester, and Lackey indifference(drinking beer,eating fried chicken,playing video games in the clubhouse during game):
    [QUOTE]IF THIS IS ALL TRUE...... THEN COLONEL HENRY NEEDS TO "TRANSFORM" THIS TEAM.....
    Posted by Bill-806[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, but Colonel Sanders might have a say-so, if they take away the chicken!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    The article brought out a couple of things I was not aware of; Tito's marital and alleged painkiller problem is one, the other is a more in depth analysis and supposition that "the team" may have actually quit on ownership because of the doubleheader scheduling in late August.

    Tito clearly had lost the team if he could not get Beckett, Lester and Lackey to quit drinking beer and playing video games during Red Sox games to come out to the dugout to support the other players...straight up disregard from top line starters to the Manager and a huge message about their commitment to The Team which is a cancer that spreads quickly. Tito was looking very tired and not healthy. The wieght of marital problems, pain in his knees being helped by pain killers could take any Manager off their game.

    If in fact, and I am not agreeing 100%, several players essentially tanked in September because of Ownership choices for scheduling, this would be devastating and rationale for simply dumping/trading/fining....whatever those players involved.

    We are in a sad, sad state right now. The second domino is about ready to fall (Theo) and then lets get on to the hot stove and see who ownership comes up with for the new GM, probably Cherington, then who our new Manager is, hopefully an ex-Marine Gunny Sgt., and then who of the players goes, Lackey simply has to be dumped and finally who are the new players added to this cast of miscreants.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    If the allegations in this story are true, I'm genuinely glad the Sox didnt' make the playoffs. They didn't deserve it -- again, if the allegations are true.

    The one thing I saw that was the most inexcusable is the charge that Beckett, Lester and Lackey were in the clubhouse partying (how else to describe drinking beer and playing video games?) WHILE THEIR TEAMMATES WERE PLAYING A GAME. If that's true, I say dump all three of them.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    as a non Sox fan, can't really judge, but.....man, not good...especially the pitchers..seems like this is the second time out of shape accusations were pointed at Beckett....
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from OnDeckCircle. Show OnDeckCircle's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    According to the story, this Sox team had more issues and were more dysfunctional than Henry, Werner, and Lucchino ever knew or cared to admit to.     Henry lost the respect of the team when he had the "players only" cruise on his yacht and gave them each $300 headsets to calm them down from the Oakland doubleheader.

    Truly a season to forget.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from kirbyrob. Show kirbyrob's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    Normally, I would laugh so hard at an article like this.....but man, is this as bad as it gets. REALLY.... as bad as it gets.

    Theo may have left this organization in ruins; Francona has much bigger problems - it would appear...Hopefully, ridding themselves of this mess will start moving things in the right direction.

    Will they even be able to FIND a new mngr to deal with this???!!!

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    In Response to Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems, Beckett, Lester, and Lackey indifference(drinking beer,eating fried chicken,playing video games in the clubhouse during game):
    [QUOTE]According to the story, this Sox team had more issues and were more dysfunctional than Henry, Werner, and Lucchino ever knew or cared to admit to.     Henry lost the respect of the team when he had the "players only" cruise on his yacht and gave them each $300 headsets to calm them down from the Oakland doubleheader. Truly a season to forget.
    Posted by OnDeckCircle[/QUOTE]

    Just more evedence of entitled, spolied children. This is something a poor parent would do to avoid confrontation, instead of imposing discipline.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    The Sox don't need a disciplinarian coach. They need to rid themselves of the troubles on this team, no matter who they might be. Then they need a coach who will coach the hardworkers, and the upcoming talent and not be concerned about being a friend to all the players. These so called athletes are adults. They don't need a babysitter in the clubhouse. However, they need to be fined and benched for their actions. There are plenty of young athletes would love to be in a SOX uniform working their as_es off.

    Official: 5 yrs for Theo at the CUBS. What a mess he is leaving in Boston. He needs to take a few of the bad signings with him.....
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from sinjin5000. Show sinjin5000's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    most of you people  who post here are either stupid or blind, first off, the RS are a business!, the owner invests his money for two reasons, first to make more money!, second to have the satisfaction of having a winning team! that said, the owner hires people to run the team, ie francona and theo, both of these people failed and failed badly!

    The owner also pays the players to work hard and produce results!, a lot of these players failed! not because they were injured, but because they did not care enough to work hard enough or care enough to put them selves in position to win games!

    So the bottom line was they blew a 9 game lead in sept, and didn't make the playoffs!

    So now it's time to get rid of the management and players who didn't give a sh... enought to manage or play like proffesionals!

    So far the manager and general manager have paid for their failures! Now it's time to clean out the rats nest that is the RS club house. 

    I think that starts with Ortize, Youk, Tek, wakefield, and ANY one else who puts their own ideas and wants before the team!

    Lastly, all you dumb As.. who think the press is making all this sh.. up? all you have to do is look what happend in Sept 2011!! this doesn't happen to a team that gives a Sh...!!!    

           
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from EastTraveler. Show EastTraveler's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    Does this mean we all get a refund?   :) Ya right...

    When a player/professional is paid the kind of money that they are you EXPECT from them to be at the top of their game EVERY DAY... If these allocations are in fact true then the fix is going to be very painful both financially and emotionally for the team. Every dedicated fan that had spent a ton of money attending the games deserve better and there is no doubt in my mind that John Henry is going to have heads roll. A question I have is where were the other managers like the pitching coach or the fitness/conditioning coach... Shame on those who knew better but just didn't care in the end...  Yell

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from sinjin5000. Show sinjin5000's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    most of you people  who post here are either stupid or blind, first off, the RS are a business!, the owner invests his money for two reasons, first to make more money!, second to have the satisfaction of having a winning team! that said, the owner hires people to run the team, ie francona and theo, both of these people failed and failed badly!

    The owner also pays the players to work hard and produce results!, a lot of these players failed! not because they were injured, but because they did not care enough to work hard enough or care enough to put them selves in position to win games!

    So the bottom line was they blew a 9 game lead in sept, and didn't make the playoffs!

    So now it's time to get rid of the management and players who didn't give a sh... enought to manage or play like proffesionals!

    So far the manager and general manager have paid for their failures! Now it's time to clean out the rats nest that is the RS club house. 

    I think that starts with Ortize, Youk, Tek, wakefield, and ANY one else who puts their own ideas and wants before the team!

    Lastly, all you dumb As.. who think the press is making all this sh.. up? all you have to do is look what happend in Sept 2011!! this doesn't happen to a team that gives a Sh...!!!    

           
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxPatsCelts1988. Show SoxPatsCelts1988's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    Get rid of lackey. See if you can swap talent for talent with Beckett. If not, hope they pull their heads Out of their you know wheres and start caring. Let Ortiz varitek, papal on go as those are the easiest ways to start cleaning house. Trade Youk and hope middlebrooks (who will be as good as Longiria) can assume the every day job. Go young in rf as well (hopefully kalish). Lavarnway and salty can split time at dh and catcher. Bring in another bat that can dh and play OF. Find a veteren pitcher to bring in here as well.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from greenapplesplatters. Show greenapplesplatters's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    In Response to Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems, Beckett, Lester, and Lackey indifference(drinking beer,eating fried chicken,playing video games in the clubhouse during game):
    [QUOTE]most of you people  who post here are either stupid or blind, first off, the RS are a business!, the owner invests his money for two reasons, first to make more money!, second to have the satisfaction of having a winning team! that said, the owner hires people to run the team, ie francona and theo, both of these people failed and failed badly! The owner also pays the players to work hard and produce results!, a lot of these players failed! not because they were injured, but because they did not care enough to work hard enough or care enough to put them selves in position to win games! So the bottom line was they blew a 9 game lead in sept, and didn't make the playoffs! So now it's time to get rid of the management and players who didn't give a sh... enought to manage or play like proffesionals! So far the manager and general manager have paid for their failures! Now it's time to clean out the rats nest that is the RS club house.  I think that starts with Ortize, Youk, Tek, wakefield, and ANY one else who puts their own ideas and wants before the team! Lastly, all you dumb As.. who think the press is making all this sh.. up? all you have to do is look what happend in Sept 2011!! this doesn't happen to a team that gives a Sh...!!!            
    Posted by sinjin5000[/QUOTE]



    Excellent post! I'm sure every intelligent fan following the team feels the exact same way. I know I do.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Since75. Show Since75's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    In Response to Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems, Beckett, Lester, and Lackey indifference(drinking beer,eating fried chicken,playing video games in the clubhouse during game):
    [QUOTE]very disappointing
    Posted by 2004Idiots[/QUOTE]

    Not sure disappointing covers it.  Maybe disgusted.  Not sure.  I put my heart and soul into rooting for this team only to watch September then find out that some of the key players didn't give a crap what happened.  If I acted like that at work I get fired.  Plane and simple.  Can't believe it.  Say it ain't so guys.  Say it ain't so.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    This story I'm sure is just another of the many to come chronicaling the symptoms of "inside the collapse". Sometimes in these type of situations the fix begins with opening the can and seeing exacty how many worms are inside. Once you sort out the issues. Job one is indentfying the systemic issues from the indivual issues...Then addressing them by ensuring that the entire team understands what is and is not exceptable behavior and implent a uniformed policy that is clearly and concisely communicated to the coaches and players...Then once the team issue are addressed the next step is meeting with the individuals and thier representitive to make clear what the expectation is and to do so that will take ownership to hold every player and his agent accountable for the terms of their contracts. Which always include a clause for the players to follow the teams conditioning programs and those that don't have to be disiplined (fined) or in some cases have their contracts revoked...

    That was then, this is now...New leadership will go a longways in curing many of these ills...It's all water under the bridge now...Not sure that blowing up the team is nessasary. More so just change the culture of accountabilty and challenge those that are seen as leaders to step up and be part of the solution...End of the day I'm pretty certain that everyone involved today has a bit of egg on their collective faces and the new skipper has a golden oppoturnity to start anew next spring...my guess is that the culture next year will be starkly different...Clearly it has to change...
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    Something was terribly wrong with the Red Sox in September. If 90 percent of the information in this article is true, that information helps explain the demise.

    The Red Sox have some serious issues, but every crisis presents an opportunity.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dbeach48. Show dbeach48's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    players boozin

    tito poppin

    crawful strainin his eyes trying to find the street address of another BOA to cash his checks

    who the h... needs to make things up?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    It all comes down to  lack of leadership. You have a general manager, manager , bench coach , pitching coach , conditioning coach and several other coaches who are paid to provide the leadership and discipline required to control these spoiled rotten athletes.  They obviously failed to do this. There is no other way to look at it. I have no doubt that the handful of players who stayed in shape and played hard, deeply resented what was going on , and wondered why it was permitted. However , it is not their job to speak out and alienate their teammates. That is up to management.  What is so hard about a manager or bench coach walking into the clubhouse and ordering the players to return to the bench? It is weakness and cowardice , and cannot be tolerated.  A thorough house cleaning is needed. Get rid of the failed " leaders " , and the trouble making players.

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    I said this back in the Spring Training, THE YEAR BEFORE LAST, I had a bad feeling about Beckett, Lester, & Lackey being rolled out as the "3 Horsemen."  We were constantly treated to the 3 strutting around Spring Training with an air of entitlement. The pitching in the last 2 Spring Trainings was God Awful!!!!  It does matter that guys are consistently coming to camp NOT READY TO PLAY!!!  Spare me the "ball was coming out of my hand really well," BS!!!   In retrospect, my concern was well justified!  This article turns my stomach, as I have always favored the "dirtdogs" of Boston, whether you're talking about Trott Nixon or Pedey.  The Manny Ramirez attitude of, "I'm gonna do whatever the hell I want, as I'm the s h i t & mine don't stink," makes me literally ill!!!!!  I am MORE THAN disappointed with these 3!!!  I, borderline, want the Sox to completely clean house!  Right now, I would add Buch & Wake to that list.  It's CLEARLY NOT just the starting pitching who BAILED ON THEIR TEAM either.  Let's face it!!!!!  The clubhouse culture of the Boston Red Sox has completely gone to HELL!  I have no problem with the Red Sox going down in flames, as they did last year, but doing so with a "poor me, entitlement mentality," makes my stomach turn!!!  Last year, those subs from the farm came in & put on that Red Sox uniform, & played their hearts out with pride!  It makes me sick to say this, but the Yankees at least DEMAND that their players wear that uniform with pride!  Many of our guys clearly think that they are themselves BIGGER THAN THE UNIFORM.  The ownership must start DEMANDING that the players they bring here understand that playing for this team & wearing that uniform if a privilege!  When they pull these "it's all about me" attitudes, they are pissing on the memories of all the Red Sox GREATS who ever wore the RS Jersey!

    This is a very sad day!!!!  Those who say, "hey, we don't know how much of this is FACT," are kidding themselves!  Even if one or two individual anecdotes are eventually shot down, I think there are a likely dozens more that would flesh out an overall place where the inmates were running the asylum.

    Time for ownership to interview each player!  Own up to THEIR shortcomings with respect to oversight, but ask each guy, "HOW BADLY DO YOU WANT TO BE HERE IN BOSTON???  BECAUSE A CHANGE IS COMING!  WE LET THE RS NATION DOWN, BUT THIS WILL NOT STAND!!!!  PLAYERS, MANAGERS, COACHES, THE FO, & OWNERSHIP WILL BE HELD TO A HIGH STANDARD!  IF ANY DON'T TOW THE COMPANY LINE, THERE WILL BE ACCOUNTABILITY!  THERE WILL BE SANCTIONS LEVIED!  WE WILL NEVER AGAIN SULLY THIS SACRED UNIFORM!!!

    75 still tears out hearts out, but most of us look back on that loss with pride.  We knew without a doubt that those guys would kill themselves to win!  That is not to say that they were all choir boys, but they came to play every day!!!  It was a "you're gonna have to bury me in this uniform" attitude.  There is a reason that most Red Sox fans still cherish that loss, even more so than the 04 & 07 World Series titles!!!  Yeh!  We lost on the scoreboard, but MAN DID WE GO DOWN SWINGING!!!   
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    It looks to me like the Sox are getting ready to retool.  Is it a coincidence that every time a player of talent gets released or traded by the Sox that there's a smear campaign immediately afterward where "unnamed sources" reveal a myriad of problems that the player had?  Problems that had been kept in the clubhouse until now, when the fans "deserved to know about them"?  This is the way the Sox FO operates and we should be used to it by now! 

    And don't get me wrong.  After what happened this year, retooling isn't a bad idea.  Some players, the ones with the pervasive bad attitudes have to go, and if you look at who's getting the bad press it's not hard to figure out who's leaving.  The FO just wants us to know that 1) they (FO) did all they could to control these bad apples and failed, and 2) it wasn't the fault of the organization that the team collapsed in September.  It was the fault of the players and, of course the manager, and most definitely NOT the FO. 

    [As an aside here, does anyone REALLY think that the FO wasn't aware of everything that went on in the clubhouse??  Tito was PAID by the FO to keep the FO apprised of exactly issues like that.  Tito didn't tell the press, but he sure as h*** told the guys in the upstairs office!]

    Of course, the real reason they want us to know that it wasn't the fault of the FO is that is so..... we'll keep coming back to the ballpark!  If you want to know the real reason something is happening, "follow the money". 

    Please don't take my post wrong.  I believe there were clubhouse problems and I'm not supporting the players who caused it.  It's just that there's a fine line between telling the truth and character assassination and this FO has never hesitated to step over that line when a player is leaving.

    What the front office is doing now is only slightly removed from Yankee posters coming here and making innuendos about Sox players and PED's with no evidence to support their postings.  Character assassinations.  The FO should read more children's books.  As Thumper's mother said, If you can't say something nice don't say anything at all". Saying nothing at all would have been more appropriate,

    and most especially in the case of Terry Francona. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from KRomine. Show KRomine's posts

    Re: Boston Globe's Inside the collapse-Your thoughts? Reveals the story behind the collapse from Francona's personal problems...

    These comments make me laugh.  By opening day, all will be forgotten, and everyone here will be standing and cheering as the roster is announced!

    We'll see who has the 'nads to show their displeasure to the worthless bums (Lackey, Beckett, Lester, Gonzalez, etc) that decided to pack it in on
    August 27th
     
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