Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree?

    What about the bench?  More relievers?  For starters, I'd put Eck in that pen.......if I am allowed to bend the rules a little of course...
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    Check out former MVP Jackie Jensen, before you pencil Dewey in RF.
    I loved Evans, but Jensen was a super talented player.
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    Terry Francona = manager
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    SS Joe Cronin, Johnny Pesky 
    P Babe Ruth, Lefty Grove, Mel Parnell, Frank Sullivan, Ellis Kinder, Jim Lonborg

    -This list shows negligence for the past.
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    A strong case could be made that Joe Cronin was the greatest SS in team history rather than Nomar. Not saying it is a slam dunk discussion but Cronin played SS for the RS for 11 seasons with .878 OPS. while Nomar had a .923 in Boston over 9 years. But if you adjust the position for eras and that Cronin was a player manager for 11 years and then managed for 2 more including 1946 the case gets strong for Cronin. And what might sway some is Cronin was inducted into the HOF in 1956 and Nomar isn't a HOF player.

    Aside from that I get it, including Evans over Jensen due to longevity though for shear talent mentioning Jensen is a great call.
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    Jensen didn't play long enough IMO, compared to Evans. But three RBI crowns, excellent power and defense certainly has him in the conversation.

    Since I have some doubts about how clean Nomar was, I might consider Johnny Pesky over him -- MAYBE, I'm not sure. Or maybe even Joe Cronin, who might have had the best bat of all three but not as good defensively.

    Any all-time Red Sox team has to find a way to include Carl Yastrzemski, so I'd at least create a spot for bench/utility to include him and one or two others.

    OR

    If the fact that Williams didn't play DH and you want the strongest all-around team, I might call Williams the DH (sorry Papi) and put Yaz in LF. It's hard to leave off a player who has played more games than all but one player in baseball history and they're all with one team. 

    I'd add Ellis Kinder to the pitching staff. He didn't play in the majors because of the war until he was 31 in 1946, won 23 games in 1949 at age 34 then became basically a fulltime releiver two years later and led the league in saves twice.


     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    In Response to Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?:
    SS Joe Cronin, Johnny Pesky  P Babe Ruth, Lefty Grove, Mel Parnell, Frank Sullivan, Ellis Kinder, Jim Lonborg -This list shows negligence for the past.
    Posted by nhsteven


    How is the OPs pitching showing negligence of the past when he listed Cy Young and Joe Wood.

    The pitchers you named were excellent, but I hope you're not replacing the OPs pitchers with these guys. Lonborg had really just one great year in Boston.

    Kinder I added to the bullpen because he led the league in saves twice.

    THat leaves Ruth, Grove and Parnell. All three are worthy additions, but if you're going replace any of the OPs selections, who are you going to drop. Based on numbers, I could see adding Mel Parnell and dropping Wood. Ruth didn't pitch long enough compared to the others and Grove's best years were in Philly, although he had five great years in Boston.
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    In Response to Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?:
    Catcher: Carlton Fisk First Base: Jimmie Foxx Second Base: Bobby Doerr Third Base: Wade Boggs Shortstop: Nomar Garciaparra Left Field: Ted Williams Center Field: Tris Speaker Right Field: Dwight Evans Designated Hitter: David Ortiz Starting Rotation: Roger Clemens, Cy Young, Joe Wood, Pedro Martinez, Luis Tiant Bullpen: Jonathan Papelbon, Bob Stanley and Dick Radatz
    Posted by 2004Idiots


    Where is Ty Cobb and his 4189 hits which drarfs Jeter's claim to fame? 
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    In Response to Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?:
    In Response to Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager? : How is the OPs pitching showing negligence of the past when he listed Cy Young and Joe Wood. The pitchers you named were excellent, but I hope you're not replacing the OPs pitchers with these guys. Lonborg had really just one great year in Boston. Kinder I added to the bullpen because he led the league in saves twice. THat leaves Ruth, Grove and Parnell. All three are worthy additions, but if you're going replace any of the OPs selections, who are you going to drop. Based on numbers, I could see adding Mel Parnell and dropping Wood. Ruth didn't pitch long enough compared to the others and Grove's best years were in Philly, although he had five great years in Boston.
    Posted by royf19


    Valid, but I would take any of those 3 over Tiant; let's not forget the SS either. For starters, Burleson (great defensively) or Petrocelli might even be over Nomar. You can't play both sides of the fence IMO when it comes to longevity.
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    In Response to Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?:
    A strong case could be made that Joe Cronin was the greatest SS in team history rather than Nomar. Not saying it is a slam dunk discussion but Cronin played SS for the RS for 11 seasons with .878 OPS. while Nomar had a .923 in Boston over 9 years. But if you adjust the position for eras and that Cronin was a player manager for 11 years and then managed for 2 more including 1946 the case gets strong for Cronin. And what might sway some is Cronin was inducted into the HOF in 1956 and Nomar isn't a HOF player. Aside from that I get it, including Evans over Jensen due to longevity though for shear talent mentioning Jensen is a great call.
    Posted by fivekatz
    I'll take Cronin.  If there is any such thing as a clutch hitter, he was it. Someone on this thread says his defense might have been a notch of two beneath that of the others mentioned.  But he was a smart defender with a strong arm.  He positioned himself well and helped the players around him. 
    Terry gets the Skipper vote.

     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?



    I would take the 1997 and 1998 version of Roger Clemens while he was with Toronto. 
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    In Response to Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?:
    In Response to Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager? : Valid, but I would take any of those 3 over Tiant; let's not forget the SS either. For starters, Burleson (great defensively) or Petrocelli might even be over Nomar. You can't play both sides of the fence IMO when it comes to longevity.
    Posted by nhsteven


    Don't underrate Tiant. He won 20 games three times with the Red Sox and is 122 wins with the Sox is just one less than Parnell and more than the other two you mentioned. And Tiant certainly is on the Red Sox clutch pitching Mount Rushmore. In a clutch game, I'd take Tiant over Clemens. Of Sox pitchers I've seen pitch, I'd take Clemens over Schilling (barely) and just about any other pitcher with the exception, perhaps, of Pedro.

    I'm not sure what you mean by the statement in bold. Nomar played nine years in Boston, Burleson played seven and Rico played 13 but only six as the starting SS. Although I liked both better than Nomar, I can't pick either of them over Nomar. SS IMO comes down to Nomar, Cronin and Pesky. Although Pesky only played four years as the starting SS, I include him because he missed three years because of WWII.

    In retrospect, however, I'd have to say SS really is between Cronin and Nomar, and I'd give the edge to Cronin because I honestly question how clean Nomar was. Maybe I'm wrong for doing so and it's being unfair. It's just my opinion.
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    I'll take Varitek in his prime over Fisk. Every team needs a captain. Varitek is the catcher who brought championships to Boston.
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    C             FISK
    1ST          YAZ
    2B            PEDROIA
    3RD         BOGGS
    SS           NORMA
    LF           T WILLIAMS
    CF           ELLSBURY
    RF           DEWEY
    DH          ORTIZ or RICE

     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    Ellsbury over Hall of Famer Tris Speaker? You're kidding, right? He's not even close to what Fred Lynn did when he was here.
    Yaz played 1st base towards the end of his career, and his numbers don't come close to Jimmy Foxx.
    Bobby Doerr, Hall of Famer2nd baseman.
    Another poster who thinks Sox baseball began in 2004.
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    C             FISK
    1ST          YAZ
    2B            PEDROIA
    3RD         BOGGS
    SS           NORMA
    LF           T WILLIAMS
    CF           ELLSBURY
    RF           DEWEY
    DH          ORTIZ or RICE

    -----------------

    I think I had the same exact team last time this was asked expect I believe I went w/ Lynn over Ellsbury in CF.....or course, Williams aside it was more of a modern day team.....

     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    Not sure why some among us feel the need to critique the selections of others...Some of us have lived longer than others, some have a better grasp the alltime greats that played here and are now inductees into the hall of fame...So in that context the greatest players I've seen play for the Sox...

    C  Fisk
    1B George Scott
    2B Pedrioa
    3B Bogg's
    SS Garciaparra?
    LF Rice (no disrepect to my boyhood idol Yaz)
    CF Lynn
    RF Evans
    DH Yaz

    SP Pedro
    CL Papelbon

    In our teams history, hall of famers are a no brainer...the problem is Willams is the only choice to play left, leaving Yaz and Rice off the team...not to mention a guy (Manny) that was a 1st ballot lock to be a hall of famer until he was outed for use of peds...Which is also why I have problem with adding Ortiz as the DH and though Garciaparra was suspected of use, he was never outed so for now he's on my best I've ever seen list...Cronin a hall of famer would be the guy I'd pick if I were to chose the best based on his hall of fame status...Apparicio was well passed his prime when we aquired him, but even at his advanced age the guy could still pick it...in my life time "The Rooster" rick Bursleson was the best all around SS....

    Hall of Famers: (37)
    Luis Aparicio SS 1971-1973
    Wade Boggs 3B 1982-1992
    Lou Boudreau SS 1951-1952
    Jesse Burkett OF 1905
    Orlando Cepeda DH 1973
    Jack Chesboro RHP 1909

    Jimmy Collins 3B 1901-1907
    Joe Cronin SS 1935-1945
    Andre Dawson OF 1993-1994
    Bobby Doerr 2B 1937-44, 1946-51
    Dennis Eckersley RHP 1978-84, 98
    Rick Ferrell C 1934-1937

    Carlton Fisk C 1969, 1971-1980
    Jimmie Foxx 1B 1936-1942
    Lefty Grove LHP 1934-1941
    Bucky Harris MGR 1934
    Rickey Henderson OF 2002
    Harry Hooper OF 1909-1920
    Waite Hoyt RHP 1919-1920
    Ferguson Jenkins RHP 1976-1977
    George Kell 3B 1952-1954
    Heinie Manush OF 1936
    Juan Marichal RHP 1974
    Joe McCarthy MGR 1948-1950

    Herb Pennock LHP 1915-22, 1934
    Tony Perez 1B 1980-1982
    Jim Rice OF 1974-1989

    Red Ruffing RHP 1925-1930
    Babe Ruth LHP-OF 1914-1919
    Tom Seaver RHP 1986
    Al Simmons OF 1943
    Tris Speaker 1909-1915

    Dick Williams MGR 1967-1969
    Ted Williams OF 1939-42, 1946-60
    Carl Yastrzemski OF 1961-1983
    Tom Yawkey Owner 1931-1980
    Cy Young RHP 1901-1908

     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    I'd like to see Rico Petrocelli in there somewhere.

    I liked him better than Nomar, but I suppose talent-wise he wasn't quite as good, but he did have a longer career.
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    I like Rico too, but he's behind IMO Cronin, Pesky, Vern Stephens and Nomar as a SS (and maybe Everett Scott) and behind at least Malzone and Boggs as a 3B (and maybe Jimmy Collins, Larry Gardner, Jim Tabor and Lowell).

    (I'm comparing Rico's SS stats with the SS's and 3B stats with the 3Bs, so he's kind of in limbo).


    The deadball-era guys are hard to compare.




     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    I choose to limit my choices to those who played after WW II (1945). That was when I began a Sox fan and I was ten years of age. I also choose only those who had played a minimum  of 5 years with the Soxs.

    Starters:
                 Fisk - Catcher
                 Mo Vaughn - First Base
                 Bobby Doerr - Second Base
                 Wade Boggs - Third Base
                 Nomor Garciaparra - Short Stop     
                 Ted Williams  - Left Field
                 Fred Lynn - Center Field
                 Dwight Evans  - Right Field
                 Manny Ramirez - Designated Hitter

    Bench:
                 Billy Goodman    Played eight different positions during his career 
                                       with the soxs
                 Johnny Pesky     Played 2nd, short, & 3rd
                 "Yas"                Outfield and 1st
                 Varitek             Catcher
                 Jim Rice            Outfield & DH

    Starting Pitchers:
                  Pedro Martinez
                  Roger Clements (reluctantly
                  Mel Parnell
                  Luis Tiant
                  Jon Lester (barely meets the time limit)

    Bull Pen:
                  Bob Standley
                  Dick Radtz
                  D. Lowe
                  Papelbon
                  Ellis Kinder
                  Tim Wakefield

    I have chosen to go with a 11 man pitching staff
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    C--Fisk

    1B--Yaz (because the outfield is too crowded and Yaz did play a lot of 1B from about 1974-onward anyway; he went back to LF for a couple of years in the late 70s after they reacquired George Scott from Milwaukee)

    2B--Doerr
    SS--Cronin (close one, but he edges out Nomar by a whisker)

    3B--Boggs (his hitting prowess is well known; his fielding prowess is very underrated and overlooked)

    LF--Williams

    CF--Speaker (would love to go with Fred Lynn here, but Speaker's stats while with Boston are eye-popping)

    RF--Evans (Not a HOF'er, but maybe he should be--never a better defensive outfielder in Fenway's RF, and oh by the way, he ended up with very good offensive numbers by the time he was all done. He also raked the ball in clutch situations.)

    DH--Jim Rice (love Papi, but Rice is a HOF'er and was simply devastating in his prime)

    Starting P's: Clemens, Pedro, Babe Ruth, Mel Parnell, Tiant (I tried to go with starting pitchers who were in Boston--and pitched very well--for at least five years. That disqualifies a guy like Bruce Hurst, who was good for 3 years before leaving as a FA. Ruth barely qualifies because in 1919 he was splitting time in the OF and as a starting pitcher, but he still had a 9-5 record for a bad team, and a 2.97 ERA)

    Long reliever: Bob Stanley (the pre-1985 Stanley was a terrific, versatile pitcher)

    Set-up man/8th inning: Dick Radatz

    Closer: Papelbon (gets the nod over Radatz because he's been among the best closers in MLB for 5+ years now, and Radatz's prime wasn't as long) 

    Manager: Francona (Hard to argue with two W.S. wins, even though in the "strategy" department the Sox have had better managers in the past. Very rarely have they had good ones, unfortunately.)
     
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    Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?

    In Response to Re: Boston Red Sox: The Greatest Players in Team History, Position by Position-Agree? Who would you choose as manager?:
    Check out former MVP Jackie Jensen, before you pencil Dewey in RF. I loved Evans, but Jensen was a super talented player.
    Posted by tbrod


    Jackie Jensen is one of my all-time favorites as well, bu his career was cut short because he refused to fly. Even though that techniclly is a non-baseball reason, I would say thet Dewey gets the edge because of his flexibility/durability.
     
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