Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    If you haven't been paying attention, Bradley is slowly emerging as the better rookie right now. His defense has been strong all year, and his hitting has been more more important. Bogaerts' slash line is slightly higher in each category, but Bradley has been the best guy on the team with runners on base. 


    Here's a comparison of the three youngsters. I included Middlebrooks because there as fans who want Bogaerts at 3B over Middlebrooks. In a comparison, Middlebrooks has been nearly as productive in runs produced as Bogarts in a third on the at-bats.


    Bogaerts: 106 PA, 10 R, 7 XBH, 5 RBI, .278/.387/.378/.765; RISP: 4-26 .154; 14 Runs produced.


    Bradley: 90 PA, 11 R, 9 XB, 12 RBI, .244//.344/.372/.716; RISP: 11-26 .423; 23 Runs produced.


    Middlebrooks: 32 PA, 6 R, 5 XBA, 5 RBI, .259/.375/.593/.968; RISP 2-9 .222; 9 Runs produced.


    Another note on Bradley. He is tied for the lead for Boston in runs produced (R+RBI-HR)


    Bradley: 23
    Napoli: 23
    Pedroia: 22
    AJ: 20
    Ortiz: 19 
    Bogaerts: 14
    Gomes: 13
    Sizemore: 13

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    Nice post Roy:  I wonder if JF thinks about how he almost sent this kid down to Pawtucket.  When JBJ came back up last year, he played well enough to earn a post season spot. 


    Fielding is often something a player gets early in life.  Iggy had the ability early in his career but people found a way to complain about his hitting or "attitude" problem.  I did not see the throwing error last night by Xander but it got JoeC's voice above his normal range.


    Xander needs some work, possibly some suggestions by the people who wanted him rushed thru the minors, could help. He he continues to airmail balls and show poor range, something will have to be done.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    If you haven't been paying attention, Bradley is slowly emerging as the better rookie right now. His defense has been strong all year, and his hitting has been more more important. Bogaerts' slash line is slightly higher in each category, but Bradley has been the best guy on the team with runners on base. 


     


    Here's a comparison of the three youngsters. I included Middlebrooks because there as fans who want Bogaerts at 3B over Middlebrooks. In a comparison, Middlebrooks has been nearly as productive in runs produced as Bogarts in a third on the at-bats.


     


    Bogaerts: 106 PA, 10 R, 7 XBH, 5 RBI, .278/.387/.378/.765; RISP: 4-26 .154; 14 Runs produced.


     


    Bradley: 90 PA, 11 R, 9 XB, 12 RBI, .244//.344/.372/.716; RISP: 11-26 .423; 23 Runs produced.


     


    Middlebrooks: 32 PA, 6 R, 5 XBA, 5 RBI, .259/.375/.593/.968; RISP 2-9 .222; 9 Runs produced.


     


    Another note on Bradley. He is tied for the lead for Boston in runs produced (R+RBI-HR)


     


    Bradley: 23
    Napoli: 23
    Pedroia: 22
    AJ: 20
    Ortiz: 19 
    Bogaerts: 14
    Gomes: 13
    Sizemore: 13


    [/QUOTE]

    First of all, the difference between these two is that Bradley is working his butt off to try to keep his starting CF job from Sizemore.  XB have no competition and acting like he know his SS job is all his.  That is why XB is not really trying to be the best rookie player in MLB.  

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    Agree with OP.  Bradley has the highest Defensive WAR on the team and the 4th highest offensive WAR.  I am surprised of course, but also delighted because I am sure Bogaerts will improve given he is just 21.  Remember the Sizemore vs Ellsbury thread?  Well, right now based on Offensive and defensive WAR's Bradley is overall ahead of Ellsbury.  Ain't that a hoot?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to steven11's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Nice post Roy:  I wonder if JF thinks about how he almost sent this kid down to Pawtucket.  When JBJ came back up last year, he played well enough to earn a post season spot. 


     


    Fielding is often something a player gets early in life.  Iggy had the ability early in his career but people found a way to complain about his hitting or "attitude" problem.  I did not see the throwing error last night by Xander but it got JoeC's voice above his normal range.


     


    Xander needs some work, possibly some suggestions by the people who wanted him rushed thru the minors, could help. He he continues to airmail balls and show poor range, something will have to be done.


    [/QUOTE]
    I agree that something has to be done - but nothing is going to be done.  Not until the FO gets 'hit over the head' with how much his defense could be hurting the team.  Right now Bogearts is what you get when you put someone at SS because he can hit.


    In order to make a change the FO would be tacitly admitting that they made a mistake by letting two good defensive SS's get away, thereby giving Bogearts the position and telling him that it's his to lose. Instead they'll say, "Well, he's young", "Well, he, he needs experience" and "Well, he'll get better".  Well, he's costing this team runs.  


    Why in God's name the defending WS champions gave a (THE??) key infield position to a player who had less than 25 innings there is beyond me.  But everyone loves his offense and that's why he's there.   


     


    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.


     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    I thought Bradley was less of a sure thing than Bogaerts, still do...but I think JBJ is starting to show he belongs in the majors.  He's made strides at the plate, still a work in progress but non the less he's hit more than he did last year.....and it just so happens when he does hit he creates runs.


    I have no doubt that him and Bogaerts will be huge contributing parts of this team by years end

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    S5, the FO wants 2 good bats in the lineup, MBR and XB.  Before inserting Drew or marrero or whoever at SS, who you kicking back to Pawtucket?  XB or MBR?   Bogaerts continues to have the second best OBP on the team and should improve on defense, especially when spring finally arrives in Boston.  

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    I thought Bradley was less of a sure thing than Bogaerts, still do...but I think JBJ is starting to show he belongs in the majors.  He's made strides at the plate, still a work in progress but non the less he's hit more than he did last year.....and it just so happens when he does hit he creates runs.


     


    I have no doubt that him and Bogaerts will be huge contributing parts of this team by years end


    [/QUOTE]


    You could be right but the way the red sox cycle thru short stops, my money is on JBJ being at fenway longer. The risp stat is important in many ways.  One is that it shows that Xander nervousness at short may just carry over to the plate when runners are on.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to steven11's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


    I thought Bradley was less of a sure thing than Bogaerts, still do...but I think JBJ is starting to show he belongs in the majors.  He's made strides at the plate, still a work in progress but non the less he's hit more than he did last year.....and it just so happens when he does hit he creates runs.


     


     


     


    I have no doubt that him and Bogaerts will be huge contributing parts of this team by years end


     


    [/QUOTE]


    You could be right but the way the red sox cycle thru short stops, my money is on JBJ being at fenway longer. The risp stat is important in many ways.  One is that it shows that Xander nervousness at short may just carry over to the plate when runners are on.


    [/QUOTE]

    But I'm not going to judge XB's career and future based off of 1 month at the plate.  In that one month he's done pretty good...not great but definitely good.  Good enough to make you very excited about what he can do in the future if he can hit like this now at 21 (Bogaerts is 3 years younger than Bradley)  His OBP% is near .387 and he has started every year of his professional career short on power the first month and then heats up.  Once Xander heats up he will be able to bring much more power than Bradley.


    Don't count out Xander Bogaerts being in Boston longer than 6 years.  Seeing how they are both Boras clients I could see Xander as more likely to want to work out a long term extensions than Bradley....Xander has already showed loyalty to the Sox when they signed his brother. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to steven11's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


     


     


    I thought Bradley was less of a sure thing than Bogaerts, still do...but I think JBJ is starting to show he belongs in the majors.  He's made strides at the plate, still a work in progress but non the less he's hit more than he did last year.....and it just so happens when he does hit he creates runs.


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    I have no doubt that him and Bogaerts will be huge contributing parts of this team by years end


     


     


     


    [/QUOTE]


    You could be right but the way the red sox cycle thru short stops, my money is on JBJ being at fenway longer. The risp stat is important in many ways.  One is that it shows that Xander nervousness at short may just carry over to the plate when runners are on.


     


    [/QUOTE]

    But I'm not going to judge XB's career and future based off of 1 month at the plate.  In that one month he's done pretty good...not great but definitely good.  Good enough to make you very excited about what he can do in the future if he can hit like this now at 21 (Bogaerts is 3 years younger than Bradley)  His OBP% is near .387 and he has started every year of his professional career short on power the first month and then heats up.  Once Xander heats up he will be able to bring much more power than Bradley.


     


    Don't count out Xander Bogaerts being in Boston longer than 6 years.  Seeing how they are both Boras clients I could see Xander as more likely to want to work out a long term extensions than Bradley....Xander has already showed loyalty to the Sox when they signed his brother. 


    [/QUOTE]


    I hope he stays for the year at short.  But if it were Iggy or drew with 4 errors already which could be 8 or more, the yearly stat predictions for errors would be up and down the page.


    The only thing I am saying is he needs work and to those who want Xander at third, he is worse at third than short.  Don't think he can play third because he made a few plays in the post season at that position.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    S5, the FO wants 2 good bats in the lineup, MBR and XB.  Before inserting Drew or marrero or whoever at SS, who you kicking back to Pawtucket?  XB or MBR?   Bogaerts continues to have the second best OBP on the team and should improve on defense, especially when spring finally arrives in Boston.  


    [/QUOTE]
    You make a good point when you say that the FO wants two good bats in the lineup, but IMO you don't go far enough.  I'd say that the FO wants nine good bats in the lineup and if defense has to suffer to do it... so be it.  I find it interesting that in the other major team sports, football, basketball and hockey, teams are built around 'defense first' but this team is now willing to sacrifice defense in favor of offense.  Let's not forget Drew's defensive contribution in the WS last year - and his lack of contribution to the offense.


    But I agree with you.  This team is where it is this year.  It's due to the decisions that have been made within the past nine months and we're now stuck with what we've got.  We have to hope that this "offense first at catching and SS" philosophy works out.  The defense is currently so bad that we NEED the offense they provide. 


    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.


     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    Last season it was a sure bet that Iggy or Drew were going to make the plays.  Already just a month into baseball, many are holding their breath every time the ball goes to Xander.  If he allows two runs on an error he should be hitting close to .300 all year long.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to steven11's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Last season it was a sure bet that Iggy or Drew were going to make the plays.  Already just a month into baseball, many are holding their breath every time the ball goes to Xander.  If he allows two runs on an error he should be hitting close to .300 all year long.


    [/QUOTE]

    Do you think his defense will improve at all?  Drews did, Drew was a bad defender for years, as I said in an earlier post many SS's are average to below average defenders their first year or 2 and round out into above average defenders.


    And if you do think he has the capacity to improve (which there is ZERO reason to believe he can't) the next question comes down to whether or not you are willing to give him some patience???


    Are we willing to give Bogaerts more than 1 stinking month at the position.


    If the answer is no, then the argument really turns into building a team through your farm, and signing free agents.  Because here we have one of the highest rated talents in the entire league, the best Boston has had in a decade and if we aren't willing to bank on his ability to continually improve then why are we even trying to build a team through are own farm?


    So, can he improve? and do we want to give him the time to improve?


    I would argue yes and yes to those questions although I'll admit the later of the two is a matter of preference, however I would strongly argue with anyone the importance of patience and a player improving his abilities as we have seen time and time and time again that players improve with age and experience. 


    It is pretty much inarguable that to some degree Xander Bogaerts will become a better defender. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to steven11's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Last season it was a sure bet that Iggy or Drew were going to make the plays.  Already just a month into baseball, many are holding their breath every time the ball goes to Xander.  If he allows two runs on an error he should be hitting close to .300 all year long.


    [/QUOTE]

    .300 is probably the "break-even point" and if every player breaks even the team goes .500.  


    Given the fact that that the difference between making the playoffs and not making the playoffs is usually a game or two in the final standings AND the fact that you simply cannot give a team four outs in an inning, each single error that seems innocuous enough at the time could very well be the difference between making the PO's and not making the PO's.  


    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.


     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to steven11's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


    Last season it was a sure bet that Iggy or Drew were going to make the plays.  Already just a month into baseball, many are holding their breath every time the ball goes to Xander.  If he allows two runs on an error he should be hitting close to .300 all year long.


     


    [/QUOTE]

    Do you think his defense will improve at all?  Drews did, Drew was a bad defender for years, as I said in an earlier post many SS's are average to below average defenders their first year or 2 and round out into above average defenders.


     


    And if you do think he has the capacity to improve (which there is ZERO reason to believe he can't) the next question comes down to whether or not you are willing to give him some patience???


     


    Are we willing to give Bogaerts more than 1 stinking month at the position.


     


    If the answer is no, then the argument really turns into building a team through your farm, and signing free agents.  Because here we have one of the highest rated talents in the entire league, the best Boston has had in a decade and if we aren't willing to bank on his ability to continually improve then why are we even trying to build a team through are own farm?


     


    So, can he improve? and do we want to give him the time to improve?


     


    I would argue yes and yes to those questions although I'll admit the later of the two is a matter of preference, however I would strongly argue with anyone the importance of patience and a player improving his abilities as we have seen time and time and time again that players improve with age and experience. 


     


    It is pretty much inarguable that to some degree Xander Bogaerts will become a better defender. 


    [/QUOTE]


    I am willing to give him the whole year.  Time will tell if his defense gets better.  he does give us great plays but last night was not one of them.  What you see is what has been going on during his rise thru the system.  People all of a sudden are surprised to see him making errors, they need to get used to it because it will happen again.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    right now Xander Bogaerts DWar is less than -.1 so I think it is a bit absurd to say he has to hit .300 to justify his defense.  No Doubt Bogaerts defense has been subpar but I think we are going overboard here.


    Once someone gets the ideal into their head that they like/dislike someone they look for anything they can to justify there answers.


    For example; if you don't like Xander Bogaerts you will find yourself saying after every play he doesn't make "Drew would have had that" when in reality we have zero ideal, and for all we know he would have had 10% of the plays Bogaerts didn't make.


    The opposite is true, If Bogaerts misses an easy play and we like him it is easy to say "no one could have got to that ball" etc etc etc.


    In other words we all have a confirmation bias.  The reality is, while Bogaerts defense has been subpar it has nowhere nearly been "end of the world" doomsday defense some in here are making it out to be.  He isn't committing an error per game and he doesn't need to bat .300 to justify his defense. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to steven11's comment:


     


    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


     


     


    In response to steven11's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    Last season it was a sure bet that Iggy or Drew were going to make the plays.  Already just a month into baseball, many are holding their breath every time the ball goes to Xander.  If he allows two runs on an error he should be hitting close to .300 all year long.


     


     


     


     


     


     


     




    Do you think his defense will improve at all?  Drews did, Drew was a bad defender for years, as I said in an earlier post many SS's are average to below average defenders their first year or 2 and round out into above average defenders.


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    And if you do think he has the capacity to improve (which there is ZERO reason to believe he can't) the next question comes down to whether or not you are willing to give him some patience???


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    Are we willing to give Bogaerts more than 1 stinking month at the position.


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    If the answer is no, then the argument really turns into building a team through your farm, and signing free agents.  Because here we have one of the highest rated talents in the entire league, the best Boston has had in a decade and if we aren't willing to bank on his ability to continually improve then why are we even trying to build a team through are own farm?


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    So, can he improve? and do we want to give him the time to improve?


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    I would argue yes and yes to those questions although I'll admit the later of the two is a matter of preference, however I would strongly argue with anyone the importance of patience and a player improving his abilities as we have seen time and time and time again that players improve with age and experience. 


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    It is pretty much inarguable that to some degree Xander Bogaerts will become a better defender. 


     


     


     


    [/QUOTE]


    I am willing to give him the whole year.  Time will tell if his defense gets better.  he does give us great plays but last night was not one of them.  What you see is what has been going on during his rise thru the system.  People all of a sudden are surprised to see him making errors, they need to get used to it because it will happen again.


     


    [/QUOTE]

    fair enough, we can't wait forever...but the reality is you have to give someone like Bogaerts at least a full year; he deserves that. 


     


    EDIT: and for the record, when I say "he deserves that" I'm not talking about Bogaerts on a personal level as much as I'm talking about the process.  Someone, ANYONE with his talent you owe them patience as part of the process.  This is not to say Xander isn't a great kid, but I don't want to give anyone the ammunition to bash him because he hasn't really earned anything yet. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to steven11's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


    Last season it was a sure bet that Iggy or Drew were going to make the plays.  Already just a month into baseball, many are holding their breath every time the ball goes to Xander.  If he allows two runs on an error he should be hitting close to .300 all year long.


     


    [/QUOTE]

    Do you think his defense will improve at all?  Drews did, Drew was a bad defender for years, as I said in an earlier post many SS's are average to below average defenders their first year or 2 and round out into above average defenders.


     


    And if you do think he has the capacity to improve (which there is ZERO reason to believe he can't) the next question comes down to whether or not you are willing to give him some patience???


     


    Are we willing to give Bogaerts more than 1 stinking month at the position.


     


    If the answer is no, then the argument really turns into building a team through your farm, and signing free agents.  Because here we have one of the highest rated talents in the entire league, the best Boston has had in a decade and if we aren't willing to bank on his ability to continually improve then why are we even trying to build a team through are own farm?


     


    So, can he improve? and do we want to give him the time to improve?


     


    I would argue yes and yes to those questions although I'll admit the later of the two is a matter of preference, however I would strongly argue with anyone the importance of patience and a player improving his abilities as we have seen time and time and time again that players improve with age and experience. 


     


    It is pretty much inarguable that to some degree Xander Bogaerts will become a better defender. 


    [/QUOTE]
    It's always a pleasure to read your posts.  They're well thought-out and logical.


    Given what I'm seeing now interspersed with a dose of logic, I see Bogearts defense improving, but only to the point of being an average defender.  That means that right now he's a minus defender and you just cannot have a litterbug at Shortstop!  That is, not if you intend to make the playoffs.  I see even his fielding %-age to be misleading.  While I'm the first to admit that scoring is a subjective thing I've seen balls misplayed by Bogearts that I would have called errors that were judged to be hits.    


    Possibly as Red Sox fans we've been spoiled.  We saw Pedey come up and be a plus defender immediately, and JBJ is looking like he's the same way.  


    For Bogearts, I want to see progress being made and I don't see that. I see him still air-mailing balls to 1B from in the hole, plays that average SS's make almost routinely.  So how long do we wait?  Another month? Two? Until the AS break?  And what then?  Does his defensive liability cost us a playoff spot this year?  And we don't even have a decent back-up SS at the ML level.  


    I'm all for patience but IMO the FO has too many eggs in the Bogearts basket.  If this doesn't work out they don't even have a Plan B.  


    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.


     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


    In response to steven11's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


     


     


    Last season it was a sure bet that Iggy or Drew were going to make the plays.  Already just a month into baseball, many are holding their breath every time the ball goes to Xander.  If he allows two runs on an error he should be hitting close to .300 all year long.


     


     


     


    [/QUOTE]

    Do you think his defense will improve at all?  Drews did, Drew was a bad defender for years, as I said in an earlier post many SS's are average to below average defenders their first year or 2 and round out into above average defenders.


     


     


     


    And if you do think he has the capacity to improve (which there is ZERO reason to believe he can't) the next question comes down to whether or not you are willing to give him some patience???


     


     


     


    Are we willing to give Bogaerts more than 1 stinking month at the position.


     


     


     


    If the answer is no, then the argument really turns into building a team through your farm, and signing free agents.  Because here we have one of the highest rated talents in the entire league, the best Boston has had in a decade and if we aren't willing to bank on his ability to continually improve then why are we even trying to build a team through are own farm?


     


     


     


    So, can he improve? and do we want to give him the time to improve?


     


     


     


    I would argue yes and yes to those questions although I'll admit the later of the two is a matter of preference, however I would strongly argue with anyone the importance of patience and a player improving his abilities as we have seen time and time and time again that players improve with age and experience. 


     


     


     


    It is pretty much inarguable that to some degree Xander Bogaerts will become a better defender. 


     


    [/QUOTE]
    It's always a pleasure to read your posts.  They're well thought-out and logical.


     


    Given what I'm seeing now interspersed with a dose of logic, I see Bogearts defense improving, but only to the point of being an average defender.  That means that right now he's a minus defender and you just cannot have a litterbug at Shortstop!  That is, not if you intend to make the playoffs.  I see even his fielding %-age to be misleading.  While I'm the first to admit that scoring is a subjective thing I've seen balls misplayed by Bogearts that I would have called errors that were judged to be hits.    


     


    Possibly as Red Sox fans we've been spoiled.  We saw Pedey come up and be a plus defender immediately, and JBJ is looking like he's the same way.  


     


    For Bogearts, I want to see progress being made and I don't see that. I see him still air-mailing balls to 1B from in the hole, plays that average SS's make almost routinely.  So how long do we wait?  Another month? Two? Until the AS break?  And what then?  Does his defensive liability cost us a playoff spot this year?  And we don't even have a decent back-up SS at the ML level.  


     


    I'm all for patience but IMO the FO has too many eggs in the Bogearts basket.  If this doesn't work out they don't even have a Plan B.  


     


    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.


     


     


    [/QUOTE]

    If he doesn't work out Marrero will be ready in 2 years (maybe 1-1.5) and there is a decent probability that Betts could play SS as well.  AND the Sox system is loaded....if they really wanted too they could trade for anyone they wanted.


    Bogaerts offensive ceiling is being the best player in the league so even if he does round out to an "average defender" then he's an MVP candidate at SS.  So yes, people need to practice more patience with the kid. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:


    [/QUOTE]
    It's always a pleasure to read your posts.  They're well thought-out and logical.


    Given what I'm seeing now interspersed with a dose of logic, I see Bogearts defense improving, but only to the point of being an average defender.  That means that right now he's a minus defender and you just cannot have a litterbug at Shortstop!  That is, not if you intend to make the playoffs.  I see even his fielding %-age to be misleading.  While I'm the first to admit that scoring is a subjective thing I've seen balls misplayed by Bogearts that I would have called errors that were judged to be hits.    


    Possibly as Red Sox fans we've been spoiled.  We saw Pedey come up and be a plus defender immediately, and JBJ is looking like he's the same way.  


    For Bogearts, I want to see progress being made and I don't see that. I see him still air-mailing balls to 1B from in the hole, plays that average SS's make almost routinely.  So how long do we wait?  Another month? Two? Until the AS break?  And what then?  Does his defensive liability cost us a playoff spot this year?  And we don't even have a decent back-up SS at the ML level.  


    I'm all for patience but IMO the FO has too many eggs in the Bogearts basket.  If this doesn't work out they don't even have a Plan B.  


    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.


    [/QUOTE]

    If he doesn't work out Marrero will be ready in 2 years (maybe 1-1.5) and there is a decent probability that Betts could play SS as well.  AND the Sox system is loaded....if they really wanted too they could trade for anyone they wanted.


    Bogaerts offensive ceiling is being the best player in the league so even if he does round out to an "average defender" then he's an MVP candidate at SS.  So yes, people need to practice more patience with the kid. 


    [/QUOTE]


    First of all, I would NEVER advocate trading Bogearts - unless it were some kind of an unrealistic deal that only a poster here could dream up.  :-)  I agree completely that due to his offense he will be an AS player.  I'm just not at all sure it should be at SS.  You can put this guy anywhere and with his offense he'll be an AS.  


    But if your plan B for a SS is two years down the road AND it depends on a prospect maturing to be a starting ML shortstop... it's not much of a Plan B.


    However, the SS situation for the Red Sox is what it is, and the FO will never admit mid-season that they made a mistake.  We will ride this out for at least a full season and hope he improves defensively - because we don't have a good option.  


    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.


     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

     


     I really don't get this mass sentiment dismissing Bogaerts as a shortstop.  The kid is 21.  No, he is not the second coming of Alex Gonzalez, but he is and will be more than serviceable.  I feel like I am watching a different player than some of you are watching.  i get it:  errors glare.  But I have been pleasantly surprise with how smooth he looks out there.  Some botched plays just don't matter too much to me, especially given that he is 21 year old rookie.  I also find it hypocritical for people to dismiss Xander for his errors and overlook how error-prone Iggy was.  
     
     
     
     
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:


     


    [/QUOTE]
    It's always a pleasure to read your posts.  They're well thought-out and logical.


     


    Given what I'm seeing now interspersed with a dose of logic, I see Bogearts defense improving, but only to the point of being an average defender.  That means that right now he's a minus defender and you just cannot have a litterbug at Shortstop!  That is, not if you intend to make the playoffs.  I see even his fielding %-age to be misleading.  While I'm the first to admit that scoring is a subjective thing I've seen balls misplayed by Bogearts that I would have called errors that were judged to be hits.    


     


    Possibly as Red Sox fans we've been spoiled.  We saw Pedey come up and be a plus defender immediately, and JBJ is looking like he's the same way.  


     


    For Bogearts, I want to see progress being made and I don't see that. I see him still air-mailing balls to 1B from in the hole, plays that average SS's make almost routinely.  So how long do we wait?  Another month? Two? Until the AS break?  And what then?  Does his defensive liability cost us a playoff spot this year?  And we don't even have a decent back-up SS at the ML level.  


     


    I'm all for patience but IMO the FO has too many eggs in the Bogearts basket.  If this doesn't work out they don't even have a Plan B.  


     


    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.


     


    [/QUOTE]

    If he doesn't work out Marrero will be ready in 2 years (maybe 1-1.5) and there is a decent probability that Betts could play SS as well.  AND the Sox system is loaded....if they really wanted too they could trade for anyone they wanted.


     


    Bogaerts offensive ceiling is being the best player in the league so even if he does round out to an "average defender" then he's an MVP candidate at SS.  So yes, people need to practice more patience with the kid. 


     


    [/QUOTE]


     


    First of all, I would NEVER advocate trading Bogearts - unless it were some kind of an unrealistic deal that only a poster here could dream up.  :-)  I agree completely that due to his offense he will be an AS player.  I'm just not at all sure it should be at SS.  You can put this guy anywhere and with his offense he'll be an AS.  


     


    But if your plan B for a SS is two years down the road AND it depends on a prospect maturing to be a starting ML shortstop... it's not much of a Plan B.


     


    However, the SS situation for the Red Sox is what it is, and the FO will never admit mid-season that they made a mistake.  We will ride this out for at least a full season and hope he improves defensively - because we don't have a good option.  


     


    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.


     


     


    [/QUOTE]

    How many teams plan A is a MLB starting caliber player who can immediately be average to above average???


    If that was the case....they wouldn't be a plan B, they would be someones plan A.  

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    The RS fan should be happy that they have 3 very good young players in there lineup. Lets not try to put Boegarts down? He's the youngest of the 3 and will probably end up as the best of the 3. Take a look at Jeters rookie season and how many errors he made? or the fact that Stephen Drew [who most want back] made 24 errors in 80 games in his age 22 season while playing in the minors. There will be growing pains w/ young players but in the end RS fans will benefit the most, 10+ years of good to great baseball from these players [if they stay]. We replaced Damon, we replaced Pedro and won WS titles. We will replace Ellsbury and win a title, the proof is in the farm system!

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]


     



     I really don't get this mass sentiment dismissing Bogaerts as a shortstop.  The kid is 21.  No, he is not the second coming of Alex Gonzalez, but he is and will be more than serviceable.  I feel like I am watching a different player than some of you are watching.  i get it:  errors glare.  But I have been pleasantly surprise with how smooth he looks out there.  Some botched plays just don't matter too much to me, especially given that he is 21 year old rookie.  I also find it hypocritical for people to dismiss Xander for his errors and overlook how error-prone Iggy was.  
     
     
     
     [/QUOTE]


    I am not dismissing him at short.  I actually said no matter what happens, keep him there as long as he is hitting.  I am dismissing the comments of moving him to third.  I am also pointing out that his errors and poor range should not come as a surprise, because what you see now is the way he played when in pawtucket.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Bradley Stronger ROY Candidate Right Now Than Bogaerts

    It's priceless the amount of weeping and moaning there is about the Red Sox 'mishandling' of the SS position, the 'revolving door' etc., when they've won 3 titles with 2 short term rentals (Cabrera, Drew) at SS, plus one of the most criticized signings in team history (Lugo).


    I think maybe they might know what they're doing.  

     
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