Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from scorieger. Show scorieger's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    Ummm, no.  Gardner doesn't steal bases when needed, and is a poor baserunner.  He is a very good left fielder, but cannot handle center that well.  Baseball saavy?  What does that mean?  He is, and will always be a slap hitter.  While Jake needs to improve upon his reads off the bat, he drives the ball very consistently.  As for value, you get what you pay for.  They are very different players.  Just because they can both flat-out fly (and graduated from the Johnny Damon school of throwing), does not mean they should be compared. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    Pike has no need to label Softlaw.
    95% of the forum has him labeled
    As well as thousand previous forum participants
    Who have left because of him
    Harness is happy with a small fraternity
    Cares not about the multitudes that left
    He strangely values Softlaw since he is a target
    With his Jake and Jed act and contarianism
    Forget quality and sincereity
    The old man in Seattle wants company at 4 a.m.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    In Response to Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury:
    [QUOTE]Softy your posts just keep intensifying in eccentricity
    Posted by thewags[/QUOTE]

    Oh yeah, he's gone.  I've seen a few go off the deepend in here, but law is gone.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    In Response to Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury:
    [QUOTE]Career averages on offense are one notch higher for Ellsbury. Gardner a full notch higher on defense. Gardner with more baseball saavy than Ellsbury. Gardner with a better baseball build for a long term contract. Gardner's extension would be good value and wise. Ellsbury will not be extended by the Red Sox. Ellsbury should not be extended. Gardner will have more total years of career long production. Reddick and Kalish is where the future Red Sox Lefty Value is. Red Sox long term OF value is investing in a young elite slugging RH OF'er, not 12 to 14M to FA auction for Ellsbury.
    Posted by billbyboy[/QUOTE]

    Just another stupid post by a DIM WHIT 3 watt light bulb who hates Ellsbury. Nothing like blind biased.

    Hetchinspete
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from rickerd2. Show rickerd2's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    From what I read in the original post, it seems to me that it is your belief that the Sox should get Gardner when he becomes a FA, which will never happen if he is as awesome and value-filled as you claim.  So, isn't pointless to start this post?

    It's like saying that Yankee Stadium has more value in the long run than Fenway, even though the places will never be moved.  The Sox would be a better team if they have Yankee Stadium.  What is the point?
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from rickerd2. Show rickerd2's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    In Response to Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury:
    [QUOTE]Just another night at the office for Ellsbury.  3 for 4 with a walk, 3 runs, 2 RBI.  OPS now over .900, 18 for 38 in the last 9 games. 
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]


    Don't forget a stolen base and reverse pivot demonstration!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    In Response to Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury:
    [QUOTE]wow another great post from billbyboy. I honestly dont think he really thinks about what he is posting before he actually posts it. Ellsbury is an allstar centerfielder who is on pace for over 20 homers, thats more than gardner has in his career. Gardner is close in comparison to joey gathright or peter bourjus than ellsbury. 
    Posted by redsoxpride34[/QUOTE]

    Pride,

    I don't think thinking is one of his greater assets, but that's wondering if he's capable of any thought process. After tonight game we're about one third through the season. Drawing it out to a full year this is what Ells year might look like at years end.

    Avg:.325 Runs:120 Hits:205 Doubles:45 HRS:25 RBIs:90 Total Bases:330 

    All stats from a lead off hitter !! Brett Gardner might only get close to those stats in his dreams. Billyboy needs to find a dose of reality, or a dose of something else.    

    Speaking of reverse pivot, maybe Billyboy should reverse pivot into the Charles River for a long swim. The cold water may do him some good, sort of like a cold shower.  

    Hetchinspete.
     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    In Response to Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury:
    [QUOTE]from the back hills of NC to NY, so he can marry the "nicely built" Gardner. I believe those are your chosen words, and your personal injection into a sexual context. Perhaps you find the waste outlet attractive and pleasureable for your intimate use. Culture gets it wrong, most of the time, and it certainly isn't a sane redefinition of the crazy religous institution of marriage. Jim Hunter and Billy Graham are from the back woods of NC, I am not. Not that there is anything inferior about bible thumping and gun totin' rednecks who lack the leftist wisdom to make society better. The Pelosi, Reid and Obama vision has certanly worked wonders on shovel ready jobs. Cameron seems to be suddenly unwashed up, in Florida. Oh, those small non-career average sample sizes.
    Posted by billbyboy[/QUOTE]


    Like you never do this.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    In Response to Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury:
    [QUOTE]from the back hills of NC to NY, so he can marry the "nicely built" Gardner. I believe those are your chosen words, and your personal injection into a sexual context. Perhaps you find the waste outlet attractive and pleasureable for your intimate use. Culture gets it wrong, most of the time, and it certainly isn't a sane redefinition of the crazy religous institution of marriage. Jim Hunter and Billy Graham are from the back woods of NC, I am not. Not that there is anything inferior about bible thumping and gun totin' rednecks who lack the leftist wisdom to make society better. The Pelosi, Reid and Obama vision has certanly worked wonders on shovel ready jobs. Cameron seems to be suddenly unwashed up, in Florida. Oh, those small non-career average sample sizes.
    Posted by billbyboy[/QUOTE]


    Yeah, that Cam is blazing the trail you projected for him.
    .167 BA  .596 OPS for FLA in the retirement league.
    Did he bring his average above the Mendoza line tonight?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    In Response to Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury:
    [QUOTE]Ummm, no.  Gardner doesn't steal bases when needed, and is a poor baserunner.  He is a very good left fielder, but cannot handle center that well.  Baseball saavy?  What does that mean?  He is, and will always be a slap hitter.  While Jake needs to improve upon his reads off the bat, he drives the ball very consistently.  As for value, you get what you pay for.  They are very different players.  Just because they can both flat-out fly (and graduated from the Johnny Damon school of throwing), does not mean they should be compared. 
    Posted by scorieger[/QUOTE]

    Gardner is a good CFer. Ellsbury has a better arm than Damon, and Gardner's is better than Ells. What footage have you been watching?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimedfred. Show jimedfred's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    Billyboy IF you truly believe this, and aren't just being facetious, then you're on serious drugs.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    I'd take Ellsbury over Gardner any day. Let the Yankees keep theirs, and the Sox keep theirs and see how this all turns out in the end. I'm looking forward to a championship season for the Sox. Can't wait. Cool

    Wow, I just noticed I hit 1,000 posts two posts ago.  Where's my congratulatory thread? Tongue out
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    I just saw that myself.
    Congrats kiddo!

    The first grand are tough.
    The next 16,000 are a piece of cake!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    In Response to Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury:
    [QUOTE]I just saw that myself. Congrats kiddo! The first grand are tough. The next 16,000 are a piece of cake!
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Thanks, Harness!  I'm glad I can share my insight, and overall knowledge of baseball in 1,000 posts on this board. I'm sure my posts have had a major impact here, and in the minds of baseball strategists throughout the country. I feel honored to be able to contribute in any way possible to enlighten future generations as to the art of baseball. It's the least I can do to help my fellow man. Wink
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxPatsCelts1988. Show SoxPatsCelts1988's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    In Response to Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury : Gardner is a good CFer. Ellsbury has a better arm than Damon, and Gardner's is better than Ells. What footage have you been watching?
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]
     
    Not to sound like Jose Tavares but, who cares?  Offensive abilities far outweigh defensive abilities.  If the argument as to why Gardner is on the same level as Ellsbury is because of defense, then that's a very weak argument.  Bottom line is Ellsbury is far superior offensively and thus a superior player.

    As for your comment about SB's.  Yeah Gardner may have more, but don't forget that Ellsbury has turned into a power guy this year so he no longer has as many opportunities to steal.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    I hate to say it but I agree a bit with Softy.

    I am on the Gardner bandwagon.  I thought/hoped that pitchers would stop throwing balls to this guy last year and he would be found out.  It hasn't happened he is a very good player.  Those who call him a slap hitter like Lofton should realize Lofton (66 career WAR, JRice 56) was a very good player for a very long time.

    It all depends on how much you value defense, baserunning, and OBP.  Gardner was second only to Molina in the fileding bible votes in 2010.  He is the best fielding OF by UZR this year by quite a margin.  The guy is a great fielder.

    Baserunning (Fangraphs):   Gardner is 15th amongst all MLB OF.  While Ellsbury is a little above average.  The last few days we have seen why.

    OBP 2009 - 2011:   BG  .369     JE  .356 (Coming last BHall .282)

    I love what Ellsbury is doing and he is in his prime, but don't sell Gardner short he will probably sign a team friendly extension and be a thorn in our side.  While Ellsbury won't take an extension (way higher than Pedroia's) and Theo will take the picks.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxPatsCelts1988. Show SoxPatsCelts1988's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    In Response to Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury:
    [QUOTE]I hate to say it but I agree a bit with Softy. I am on the Gardner bandwagon.  I thought/hoped that pitchers would stop throwing balls to this guy last year and he would be found out.  It hasn't happened he is a very good player.  Those who call him a slap hitter like Lofton should realize Lofton (66 career WAR, JRice 56) was a very good player for a very long time. It all depends on how much you value defense, baserunning, and OBP.  Gardner was second only to Molina in the fileding bible votes in 2010.  He is the best fielding OF by UZR this year by quite a margin.  The guy is a great fielder . Baserunning (Fangraphs):   Gardner is 15th amongst all MLB OF.  While Ellsbury is a little above average.  The last few days we have seen why. OBP 2009 - 2011:   BG  .369     JE  .356 (Coming last BHall . 282 ) I love what Ellsbury is doing and he is in his prime, but don't sell Gardner short he will probably sign a team friendly extension and be a thorn in our side.  While Ellsbury won't take an extension (way higher than Pedroia's) and Theo will take the picks.
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]

    Can we please stop using fielding and baserunning as the core metrics for comparing Gardner and Ellsbury.  The core metric should be offense and right now, it's not even close as to who's the better hitter and thus player.
     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    Interesting how even with Softy as a provocateur when you read this thread to this point, it's really "Your Echo" that has done his utmost to derail the thread entirely. Otherwise a fair amount of the rest is good baseball debate. Clearly "Your Echo" has the least to contribute of anyone posting currently. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    Can we please stop using fielding and baserunning as the core metrics for comparing Gardner and Ellsbury. The core metric should be offense and right now,

    No because that would be wrong.  Focussing on hitting and what have you done lately is the problem not the solution.

    Too many fans get enamored by the homer.  I will keep pointing out how a team like the Rays score "extra" runs with good baserunning and help their pitchers with great defense.

    When comparing cost to production over the rest of their careers, I would take Gardner in a landslide. Greed on the part Boras and Ellsbury may be the largest factor. 

    The OP is about longterm value and in that context I agree with him.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    In Response to Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury:
    [QUOTE] I believe those are your chosen words, and your personal injection into a sexual context. [/QUOTE]

    Are you delusional? or do you just assume that everyone has no memory.  You have resorted to suggesting homosexuality life choices for MANY posters on this forum....including me a couple weeks ago.

    how do you say,  hypocrite

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxPatsCelts1988. Show SoxPatsCelts1988's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    In Response to Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury:
    [QUOTE]Can we please stop using fielding and baserunning as the core metrics for comparing Gardner and Ellsbury. The core metric should be offense and right now, No because that would be wrong.  Focussing on hitting and what have you done lately is the problem not the solution. Too many fans get enamored by the homer.  I will keep pointing out how a team like the Rays score "extra" runs with good baserunning and help their pitchers with great defense. When comparing cost to production over the rest of their careers, I would take Gardner in a landslide. Greed on the part Boras and Ellsbury may be the largest factor.  The OP is about longterm value and in that context I agree with him.
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]

    I guess but what the OP was trying to do was state that Gardner is better than Ellsbury and that's a pretty weak way of doing so.   Also, Ellsbury plays good defense (maybe not as good as Gardner) and he's as is good if not better on the basepaths.  At the end of the day though I still want the guy that can hit the ball.

    80%
    5% baserunning
    15% fielding

    That's how I view the importance of each to the whole.

    At the end of the day though, Ellsbury is better and worst case scenario we have him under control for this year as well as another 2 years before making the tough decision of whether or not to sign him or not.  That's something I'm more than happy to live with for the time being.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    Guys...This whole thing can be summed up in one phrase...Softy is an idiot!
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Brett Gardner is a better long term beyond FA Value than Ellsbury

    he's as is good if not better on the basepaths

    Fangraphs and others have measued baserunning for the last few years it is not hard to do.  We have seen the numbers on this board many times.  Certain fast players like Ellsbury and Pedroia have made more bad desicions than slower guys like Youkilis who is actually a smarter baserunner.  Gardner is a much better baserunner than Ellsbury.

    Fangraphs Baserunning 2011, '10, '09:

    Ellsbury      .3        .5      -1.5
    Gardner      2.4     4.9      3.2
    Pedroia      .8       -.3       1.3
    Youkilis      1.9       0        .8

    At the end of the day though, Ellsbury is better and worst case scenario we have him under control for this year as well as another 2 years before making the tough decision of whether or not to sign him or not

    Of course Ellsbury is having a better 2011, but Softy is right.  The NYY are probably better off with a Gardner who provides great value than are the Sox who might lose Ells to FA or pay big bucks for his decline years.  Gardner is more likely to age better b/c his eye will not decline.  Sometimes even the demented one is right.

    Longoria and Pedroia were 1st and 4th in Dave Cameron's annual trade value ranking, because they signed team friendly contracts and they are young and great. Do you see Boras doing that?
     

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