Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from attic-dan. Show attic-dan's posts

    Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

      Can someone enlighten me, this is the elephant in the living room. I keep reading about the DH, or a RH bat for RF, what to do with Wake and Tek, more starting pitching, but what about the bull-pen easily to these eyes the most glaring need on the team. The Sox currently have two reliable arms and there is talk of making either Aceves or Bard a starter I don't get it. Teams in this era of baseball carry 7 and 8 relievers,the Cardinals won it all on the backs of their bull-pen.The Sox will not be a post season factor unless they add a minimum of 5 relievers and keep Aceves and Bard in current roles. Where they are going to get these arms I have no idea, but with Nathan, Bell etc already leaving the market it appears the Sox are going on the cheap to fill this need, which is a formula for post-season disaster.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    Problem for these free agency pitchers are all terrible.  That is why Boston is having a hard time trying to get a pitcher to come to Boston at the same time to accept short term deal.  But for now these pitchers are trying to be aggressive on getting big fat contract, and they still cant find a teams that can give them a big fat contract.  It is more likely that Boston will wait a while and see who is left out. Plus Boston is trying to make a trade too.  So hopefully they can get a pitcher in return like Garza, Jerijen, etc!
     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from splendidsplinterteddyballgame. Show splendidsplinterteddyballgame's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    Who cares about Heath Bell?  Its only Dec. 2nd.  There is plenty of time to build a bullpen.  The Cardinals just won the WS with Jason Motte, Octavio Dotel, Lance Lynn, Marc Rzepczynski and Arthur Rhodes.  Four of them weren't on the team until August.  Stop being paranoid and enjoy life.  The Sox don't have to have their team in place on December 2nd!  What a stupid thread!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from splendidsplinterteddyballgame. Show splendidsplinterteddyballgame's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    In Response to Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...:
    [QUOTE]  Can someone enlighten me, this is the elephant in the living room. I keep reading about the DH, or a RH bat for RF, what to do with Wake and Tek, more starting pitching, but what about the bull-pen easily to these eyes the most glaring need on the team. The Sox currently have two reliable arms and there is talk of making either Aceves or Bard a starter I don't get it. Teams in this era of baseball carry 7 and 8 relievers,the Cardinals won it all on the backs of their bull-pen.The Sox will not be a post season factor unless they add a minimum of 5 relievers and keep Aceves and Bard in current roles. Where they are going to get these arms I have no idea, but with Nathan, Bell etc already leaving the market it appears the Sox are going on the cheap to fill this need, which is a formula for post-season disaster.
    Posted by attic-dan[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, that really hurt the Cardinals this year.  You could have combined the salaries of their last five bullpen guys and it wouldn't have added up to 10 million. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from attic-dan. Show attic-dan's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    In Response to Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...:
    [QUOTE]Who cares about Heath Bell?  Its only Dec. 2nd.  There is plenty of time to build a bullpen.  The Cardinals just won the WS with Jason Motte, Octavio Dotel, Lance Lynn, Marc Rzepczynski and Arthur Rhodes.  Four of them weren't on the team until August.  Stop being paranoid and enjoy life.  The Sox don't have to have their team in place on December 2nd!  What a stupid thread!
    Posted by splendidsplinterteddyballgame[/QUOTE]
      Point well taken, but I'm afraid the Sox are going send out Albers, Jenks, Morales, Dubrount, Bowden, Atchinson, and whatever garbage they can get on the cheap, and  you can't possibly think this a recipe for success. A side note most of those pitchers were strikeout pitchers with live arms, too many of Sox pitch to contact, they have a deficiency in power arms.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    I predict the Sox will end up with Madson.  He will get a deal for one year less and about 15 million less than Papelbon.  The question is, which of the two will end up the better pitcher vis a vis his contract.  I predict that also will be Madson.

    On top of that, I expect an additional bullpen signing, along the lines of (but not necessarily exactly) a Saito...a proven guy, but not necessarily closer material.  And then I expect maybe a reclamation guy or two, Riske and Taylor Buccholz or JP Howell.

    With Jenks, Morales, Bowden, Doubront, Weiland, Aceves, Bard and possibly Atchison or Albers, and Hill in mid-summer, the Sox will have plenty of competition for the 6-7th inning guys and a mop-up guy.  And still have the ability to move Aceves or Bard to the rotation (but not both).

    Personally, I feel that if they do not hand the closer's role over to Bard, they should turn him into a starter.  And as valuable as Aceves was last season, if the Sox get Madson and a decent setup guy, then I think they should let Madson and Bard compete for closer (the loser to be the main setup guy), and move Aceves to the rotation.  This would result in the Sox needing to obtain only one starter. 

    My wish is that it would be Darvish, but I think it may be a Harden or Webb...someone who is ready to compete with Doubront and Tazawa for the 5th and 6th starter spots in spring training, knowing that Dice-K is due back to help out sometime in July.

    As for the other needs, if Ortiz comes back, then the remaining need is a righty hitting RFer.  I know a lot of people like Cuddyer, but I do not think he is up to it defensively, and I get strong vibes that he will remain a Twin.  So, I'd like to see the Sox take a chance on Cespedes and Kalish as their RF candidates for 2012, and use Lowrie, Reddick and Iglesias as trade fodder for a good young pitcher, like a Gio Gonzalez.  Such a trade would mean Darvish is unnecessary (as I think he will NOT be signed by the Sox anyway).
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from splendidsplinterteddyballgame. Show splendidsplinterteddyballgame's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    In Response to Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...:
    [QUOTE]I predict the Sox will end up with Madson.  He will get a deal for one year less and about 15 million less than Papelbon.  The question is, which of the two will end up the better pitcher vis a vis his contract.  I predict that also will be Madson. On top of that, I expect an additional bullpen signing, along the lines of (but not necessarily exactly) a Saito...a proven guy, but not necessarily closer material.  And then I expect maybe a reclamation guy or two, Riske and Taylor Buccholz or JP Howell. With Jenks, Morales, Bowden, Doubront, Weiland, Aceves, Bard and possibly Atchison or Albers, and Hill in mid-summer, the Sox will have plenty of competition for the 6-7th inning guys and a mop-up guy.  And still have the ability to move Aceves or Bard to the rotation (but not both). Personally, I feel that if they do not hand the closer's role over to Bard, they should turn him into a starter.  And as valuable as Aceves was last season, if the Sox get Madson and a decent setup guy, then I think they should let Madson and Bard compete for closer (the loser to be the main setup guy), and move Aceves to the rotation.  This would result in the Sox needing to obtain only one starter.  My wish is that it would be Darvish, but I think it may be a Harden or Webb...someone who is ready to compete with Doubront and Tazawa for the 5th and 6th starter spots in spring training, knowing that Dice-K is due back to help out sometime in July. As for the other needs, if Ortiz comes back, then the remaining need is a righty hitting RFer.  I know a lot of people like Cuddyer, but I do not think he is up to it defensively, and I get strong vibes that he will remain a Twin.  So, I'd like to see the Sox take a chance on Cespedes and Kalish as their RF candidates for 2012, and use Lowrie, Reddick and Iglesias as trade fodder for a good young pitcher, like a Gio Gonzalez.  Such a trade would mean Darvish is unnecessary (as I think he will NOT be signed by the Sox anyway).
    Posted by parhunter1[/QUOTE]

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from splendidsplinterteddyballgame. Show splendidsplinterteddyballgame's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    I. Don't ever want to see Weiland on the mound for sox again.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    In Response to Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...:
    [QUOTE]  Can someone enlighten me, this is the elephant in the living room. I keep reading about the DH, or a RH bat for RF, what to do with Wake and Tek, more starting pitching, but what about the bull-pen easily to these eyes the most glaring need on the team. The Sox currently have two reliable arms and there is talk of making either Aceves or Bard a starter I don't get it. Teams in this era of baseball carry 7 and 8 relievers,the Cardinals won it all on the backs of their bull-pen.The Sox will not be a post season factor unless they add a minimum of 5 relievers and keep Aceves and Bard in current roles. Where they are going to get these arms I have no idea, but with Nathan, Bell etc already leaving the market it appears the Sox are going on the cheap to fill this need, which is a formula for post-season disaster.
    Posted by attic-dan[/QUOTE]

    Actually, the Cardinals bullpen was a complete disaster for most of the season, and probably the biggest reason they took all 162 games to squeak into the post-season.  Ryan Franklin opened as their closer, and then proceeded to blow 4 of his first 5 save attempts.  He was succeeded in the role by Mitchell Boggs, Fernando Salas, Eduardo Sanchez and Jason Motte.  Who says you cannot win with closer by committee?  That’s a pretty big committee right there.

    Most teams do carry 7 relief pitchers, but realistically, only about 3 or 4 of them on any team are worth counting on.  After that, they have their specialists and a maybe one or two innings guys, one of whom might be the occasional hot arm they can count on for a brief period.

    The Sox do need bullpen help, but the bullpen wasn’t the major problem.  The beating it took in September was largely because of overwork thanks to too many starters not making it through the fifth, not because it was built with bad pitchers.  I do expect Aceves to jump to the rotation, but not Bard.  The Sox are more likely to find a free agent or non-tender option (Joe Saunders?) to fill out the rotation, or maybe gamble on an overflow guy like Josh Outman.  (Or both.  They’ll need depth.)  If the Sox want to move Bard to the rotation, they'd be smarter to simply deal him for a starter.

    Doubtful the Sox add 5 relievers.  I expect the opening day bullpen to bring back Bard, Albers, Morales, Jenks, and maybe one of Bowden, Doubront, Tazawa or Weiland. (Please not Weiland.) That leaves 2 spots open before filling the Pawtucket bullpen with some depth.  They will have some depth there already with Josh Fields and Cesar Cabral hoping to jump to the big club.  Do not expect a complete overhaul of the bullpen by adding 5 new pitchers.  It’s neither smart not cost-effective to go that route.

    The Sox will probably sign a closer.  If they are looking for bargains, as reported, don’t expect Ryan Madson.  First, he is represented by Boras, not an agent typically associated with bargains.  Second, this is not the most experienced closer around, is it? Less than one year in the role – a year he didn’t even stay healthy in – and he is an elite closer?  They are more likely to get someone like Matt Capps or Francisco Rodriguez as a closer, both of whom are more experienced, probably cheaper, and much more motivated to reclaim the role somewhere.  The last spot could be taken by Dan Wheeler if he accepts arbitration (which he realistically should), or another FA, possibly a lefty (though not needed if they have both Doubront and Morales.)  Joel Zumaya has apparently been contacted by Boston, but he is really more Pawtucket depth than opening day material at this point.

    Guys to keep an eye on include Chad Qualls, Brad Lidge, Fernando Rodney, Aaron Heilman, Jeremy Accardo, and Chad Durbin or non-tender candidates JP Howell or Ross Ohlendorf to fill out the bullpen.  Hopefully they avoid the LHRP free agent crowd, although they might take a flier on Hong-Chin Kuoh if he is non-tendered (very likely).  And there is always the possibility of a trade.  Atlanta is loaded in the bullpen and needs a shortstop.  A deal of Lowrie for Eric O’Flaherty, Kris Medlen or Pete Moylan makes sense for both sides, although the latter two are coming off surgery


     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    What a difference between posters who google everything they say and posters who actually give their opinions on things. Anyone can google information. The most precious information on a forum is when you can read the thoughts of intelligent posters that you wouldn't necessarily find by googling. That's the biggest benefit of being on a forum. IMO
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from OnDeckCircle. Show OnDeckCircle's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    If you fill one hole you open up another in the case of Bard and Aceves.      If Bard becomes the closer, who is the set-up man ?     If Aceves becomes a starter, who becomes the long reliever ?    

    No question that Cherington needs to pick up some pitchers to fill some roles.     Pitching was the biggest factor in the September collapse.          
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    This is a post from MLBTR.com--perhaps something to keep in mind about "diamonds in the rough"--Kyle Weiland might be the next Chris Carpenter:

    Eight years ago today, the Cardinals signed Chris Carpenter to a one-year contract worth $500K for the second straight offseason. The right-hander had missed the entire 2003 season due to shoulder surgery, but St. Louis bet another half-a-million bucks on his recovery. Carpenter rewarded them with a 3.46 ERA in 28 starts in 2004, and has since helped the club to three NL pennants and two World Series titles.

    A guy like Octavio Dotel might be good one inning, two batter pitcher that shouldn't be overlooked. Dan Wheeler is a one to three batter pitcher--Weiland the same. Morales, Jenks, Cordero,Zumaya--put out the fire with RISP even in the 5 th--one batter--blow away guys. Albers/Atch long relief. Aceves/Bard closer. I would not overlook KRod--the guy knows how to close.

    Have faith in Doubrount and Alex Wilson they could be your #5 and #6.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    In Response to Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...:
    [QUOTE]What a difference between posters who google everything they say and posters who actually give their opinions on things. Anyone can google information. The most precious information on a forum is when you can read the thoughts of intelligent posters that you wouldn't necessarily find by googling. That's the biggest benefit of being on a forum. IMO
    Posted by kimsaysthis[/QUOTE]

    Who does that, he asks noticing the question falls on the end of one of his long-winded Google-free posts?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    In Response to Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,... : Who does that, he asks noticing the question falls on the end of one of his long-winded Google-free posts?
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    The secret is out Notin. You've always been my favorite poster on the forum. You don't post as often as some, and IMO not nearly enough, but I wait to see what you have to say. I bet I'm not alone in this regard. Not only are you easily the most intelligent poster here, but I love your quick wit and sarcasm. Even if you used it on me, I would feel the same.

    You recently replied to a post of mine, and I know in your post you were answering the underlying question you perceived, but I was totally unprepared for your response. I think I said "I agree". FTR you are one of very few people that would answer an underlying question. Just proves my point.

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    In Response to Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...:
    [QUOTE]I. Don't ever want to see Weiland on the mound for sox again.
    Posted by splendidsplinterteddyballgame[/QUOTE]

    Why? because he is 0-3?  Do not forget that he pitched most of the times when the Sox were colapsing.  Plus I think he will be a perfect bullpen pitcher.




     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    what to do with Wake and Tek,

    Do nothing with these two worthless parasites! Both are unsigned FA Union members looking for a contract. Offer a contract to take out the beer cans on a daily basis.

    I never want to see Timmy T-Ball Wastefield ever again, even for beer drinkers day.
     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    In Response to Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...:
    [QUOTE]what to do with Wake and Tek, Do nothing with these two worthless parasites! Both are unsigned FA Union members looking for a contract. Offer a contract to take out the beer cans on a daily basis. I never want to see Timmy T-Ball Wastefield ever again, even for beer drinkers day.
    Posted by hankwilliams[/QUOTE]

    Hank,

    Cheer up man. We're all aware of your low opinion of both Tim Wakefield and Jason V. Get on with life already and post some positive opinions on what moves the Red Sox can do to improve the team for 2012. 

    Cheers, 
    Hetchinspete.  
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    While other teams are busy signing players it took us two months to get a manager and I guess GM Luchino, I mean Cherrington are "gauging the market" for closers as 4 have dropped off the boards. Way to go guys. Now  Boras has the Red Sox right where he wants them with Madson as the only established guy still left. The management on this team is really scaring me here. Then they act like paupers when they want to get a "budget guy". News flash guys, relievers and players are not going to work cheap for a wealthy team like the Red Sox !




    In Response to Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...:
    [QUOTE]  Can someone enlighten me, this is the elephant in the living room. I keep reading about the DH, or a RH bat for RF, what to do with Wake and Tek, more starting pitching, but what about the bull-pen easily to these eyes the most glaring need on the team. The Sox currently have two reliable arms and there is talk of making either Aceves or Bard a starter I don't get it. Teams in this era of baseball carry 7 and 8 relievers,the Cardinals won it all on the backs of their bull-pen.The Sox will not be a post season factor unless they add a minimum of 5 relievers and keep Aceves and Bard in current roles. Where they are going to get these arms I have no idea, but with Nathan, Bell etc already leaving the market it appears the Sox are going on the cheap to fill this need, which is a formula for post-season disaster.
    Posted by attic-dan[/QUOTE]
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from chuchos. Show chuchos's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    I honestly don't think the Sox are really in the market for a closer.
     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...

    In Response to Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bull-pen, Bull-pen, Bull-pen,... : The secret is out Notin. You've always been my favorite poster on the forum. You don't post as often as some, and IMO not nearly enough, but I wait to see what you have to say. I bet I'm not alone in this regard. Not only are you easily the most intelligent poster here, but I love your quick wit and sarcasm. Even if you used it on me, I would feel the same. You recently replied to a post of mine, and I know in your post you were answering the underlying question you perceived, but I was totally unprepared for your response. I think I said "I agree". FTR you are one of very few people that would answer an underlying question. Just proves my point.
    Posted by kimsaysthis[/QUOTE]

    OK, how do I make an emoticon that blushes?





     
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