BV masterful with the BP tonite.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from MoreRings. Show MoreRings's posts

    BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    Good work by BV.  Love the fact he took Doubrount out when he did.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    Not a huge fan of Bobby's but I agree that it was a really nice series of moves that the pitchers came through on. Often a manager makes the "right moves" and they don't work out, but tonight the relievers delivered and Bobby worked them well.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    In Response to Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.:
    [QUOTE]Not a huge fan of Bobby's but I agree that it was a really nice series of moves that the pitchers came through on. Often a manager makes the "right moves" and they don't work out, but tonight the relievers delivered and Bobby worked them well.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]
    He's been working then well for quite a while. It took some time to see what he had and to sort things out. That was to be expected. So much for all the early criticism.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    i personally don't like the Joe Maddon approach to relief pitching. You can slice it any way you want, but having to use 6 pitchers in a game is not "saving arms." Each pitcher who threw warmed up for a long time and expended energy. I'd rather a reliever rest, throw 1 to 2 innings if possible, then have guys throwing 1 out here, 1 out there. It worked, and the Sox won, but it could have been done with 3 pitchers instead of 6.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    In Response to Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.:
    [QUOTE]i personally don't like the Joe Maddon approach to relief pitching. You can slice it any way you want, but having to use 6 pitchers in a game is not "saving arms." Each pitcher who threw warmed up for a long time and expended energy. I'd rather a reliever rest, throw 1 to 2 innings if possible, then have guys throwing 1 out here, 1 out there. It worked, and the Sox won, but it could have been done with 3 pitchers instead of 6.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Holy "arm chair" manager!  Nice job, DC...textbook
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from MoreRings. Show MoreRings's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    In Response to Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite. : He's been working then well for quite a while. It took some time to see what he had and to sort things out. That was to be expected. So much for all the early criticism.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    Agreed
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    In Response to Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.:
    [QUOTE]i personally don't like the Joe Maddon approach to relief pitching. You can slice it any way you want, but having to use 6 pitchers in a game is not "saving arms." Each pitcher who threw warmed up for a long time and expended energy. I'd rather a reliever rest, throw 1 to 2 innings if possible, then have guys throwing 1 out here, 1 out there. It worked, and the Sox won, but it could have been done with 3 pitchers instead of 6.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    I sort of agree. I'm not complaining because it worked, but guys like Atichson have had success going multiple innings so I think that might have worked too.

    I'm not second-guessing here -- again because it worked -- just more of a general statement.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    In Response to Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite. : I sort of agree. I'm not complaining because it worked, but guys like Atichson have had success going multiple innings so I think that might have worked too. I'm not second-guessing here -- again because it worked -- just more of a general statement.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE
    The pitcher against batter numbers suggest that Valentine was going with the odds -- something he does not always do. ( That's fine too at times. ) I doubt that arms are being "tired out." Notice that when Sox pitchers start to warm up, they toss for a bit before they start to air it out in case called upon. ( Especially Padilla. ) I may be in the minority here, but I like to see the parade and pitchers throwing a lot. Even a couple of batters helps keep them sharp. I have a hunch that is also what BV is up to. We'll see.
    I guess I'm old school. ( No guess needed! ). Pitchers used to throw a lot more than now -- some every day to stretch the arm out a bit, even in college. It didn't seem to hurt any, and it was a constant reminder of what we are supposed to do. Pitch. 
    Maddon, BTW, has had success shuttling pitchers in and out. Hard to argue with that.
    Finally, if we are solidly in the era of the starter who goes 6+, we might as well spread out the work, up to a point, tactically amongst the relievers. Sometimes it will make sense just to leave in a pitcher who's rolling for a couple of innings, or more. I'd say in general that a manager should enjoy maximum flexibility on how deploys pitchers. In the end, it comes down to judgment, canniness, deep knowledge of the staff -- and luck. 
    Right now it would be a stretch to complain about how the pen is being handled and how it's performing.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    I also think BV pulled out all the stops to win that game. The Sox had won five straight and then lost a tough one. They are on the road. BV wanted to avoid losing the first two on the trip, specially to Tampa Bay. He correctly figured that the Sox really needed this one. And he was determined not to let it get away.
    Boston is now 4 and 2 against the Rays.
     
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    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    In Response to BV masterful with the BP tonite.:
    [QUOTE]Good work by BV.  Love the fact he took Doubrount out when he did.
    Posted by MoreRings[/QUOTE]
      If Hill gives up a hit there, BV's a bum.....
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    I was a Tito fan but the last few years it seemed like Maddon 'had his number'.  One thing I was hoping about BV was that he would match up better against the Rays.  So far so good.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    In Response to Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite. : I sort of agree. I'm not complaining because it worked, but guys like Atichson have had success going multiple innings so I think that might have worked too. I'm not second-guessing here -- again because it worked -- just more of a general statement.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    Sox had a one run lead with Pena coming up. It was the right move to go with the LH, but I'll admit I was worried about Miller's control. Fortunately it worked out.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    In Response to Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.:
    [QUOTE]I was a Tito fan but the last few years it seemed like Maddon 'had his number'.  One thing I was hoping about BV was that he would match up better against the Rays.  So far so good.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    Since 2008 - 4 consecutive years and 'had his number' is an understatement
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    This was the 2nd game in a row too with timely pitching moves.  If Ross doesn't botch the pop up Tuesday, Valentines quick hook on Buchholz, who was pitching a nice game to that point, saves the game.
     
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    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    I think once the pitching staff gets re-aligned (ie Bailey back, Dice K back, and say Aceves and Bard in the pen) Bobby will be able to have a fast hook that will be very successful as we saw this week.  I think it could be a winning formula.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    I am not saying he did a bad job however it is easy to do the shuffling with a rested BP. Just remember when they were losing making the moves he did last night were impossible because the SP was only going 4 or 5 innings. Over the last 6 games the RP only had to pitch an ave of 3 innings per game. vs the 4 to 5 ave when the SP was only going a max of 5 innings. This allows any manager to manage his BP. A complete game and a 7 inning game makes for a rested BP.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    this is what is baffling to me regarding pitching. And I'm actually old-school myself. I do remember the days of throwing every day, between starts, and doing long toss, and the Braves were disciples of having their ace staff do exactly that. With that said, the starting pitchers today are just way too limited in their ability to get through outings. But at the very same time, we ask some relievers to throw 4 times in a week (in games, that requires 4 times of getting loose, warming up game situation in the pen, and we don't know if sometimes the guy has thrown 50 or so pitches or more in the pen prior to making an appearance). Again, the reliever might only end up throwing a combined 2 innings of work in the 4 appearances but the wear/tear on those arms definitely come into play later in the season. By the time, the reliever is hitting the 70-appearance mark, they are not the same pitchers, and the effectiveness often gets worse. Continued next post.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    Tiant has been saying for years these guys don't throw enough.......What was he averaging 250 IP/yr w/ at least 1 300 IP.  I'd love for Tiant to sit down w/ the staff and talk to them about how he threw close to 300 IP year after year
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    Then we go back to the "coddled" starting pitchers, the guys who do get higher salaries (Hence Bard's insistence to become a starter; Aceves wanted it for same reason). These guys go 93-100 pitches MAXIMUM now. It's like if you see a Sox starter throw 110 pitches, it's considered a long outing. Well, he's throwing once every 5 days or 6 days with some of the off days in series. The guy is getting ready once, conditioned to throw the 100, but I think these guys should be throwing well into the 120s and 130s the way the 1970s/80s starters used to with ease. Is it great strategy to do the lefty v lefty or send in the specialist to face a certain hitter? Sure, for most baseball purists. But it does slow the pace of a game to a dead stop. Games become 3-1/2 to 4 hour chess matches--AL games mind you, not NL. So you see 2 teams use 12 pitchers in a 9-inning game and it's considered "great managing." Well, I see relievers who are throwing, in my opinion, way too often, way too little in the often (1 batter appearances), but still throwing a ton of pitches. It adds up. That's why when a guy like Mortenson, or Aceves last year, or Padilla now throws a 2 to 3-inning stint in relief, it's fantastic. To me those appearances save the pen, allow for you to compensate for the 5-6-inn starter, and not really tax your staff. If Rich Hill throws 5 times in a week, he's being taxed. But we seem to congratulate the Doubronts who go 5-2/3 inn for doing their job in getting 17 outs, only to wait and then go back out there 5 days later to do what...get another 17 outs. Seems to me, you'd want more for the lesser amount of overall pitches for that starter over the course of a week. This also plays in with the closer. The closers who have their arms blown out over the years. That's why the complete game guy is needed from time to time. (And rout games, so you don't have to go to him). Anyway, I'm like roy, I can't begrudge BV for doing something that many managers do (Sparky kind of started that trend with Reds). But many of those Reds relievers careers were short due to injuries from...over-pitching in a season. Too many appearances. To me let's maximize appearances, go back to a 1-inn performance for guy who is a MLB pitcher and should be able to get 3 outs in an inning later in a game. Less appearances, less quick warmups, less pitches, more effectiveness? Don't know the stats on it, but I see it allowing more rest in between for relievers, allowing for better bounceback, better effectiveness. My opinion, though.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    Rob Murphy is a guy who lost effectiveness because of over-throwing in a setup role. That's one example from the past years. There were rubber arm guys like Mike Timlin, but few lasted as long as Mike in that capacity. Many have those 70-80 appearance years, then fade out. They don't have the same effectiveness from over-use. But no one ever says your pen is over-used. They instead say, don't tax your starter. I go: Say what?????
     
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    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    He was decisive in the matchup moves and their timing. Outstanding game management.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    I really think the idea behind specialists was to increase the use of your roster, making your 11th and 12th pitchers (used to be 10 and that's it) guys you use instead of mopup guys who also might spot start. Anyway, I've said my two cents on the subject and that's why I am against the 6-pitcher philosophy. I know guys who love 4 hour baseball games (I don't). I love 2 hour games. Those are the best ever to watch in my opinion. So few and far between.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    In Response to Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.:
    [QUOTE]I also think BV pulled out all the stops to win that game. The Sox had won five straight and then lost a tough one. They are on the road. BV wanted to avoid losing the first two on the trip, specially to Tampa Bay. He correctly figured that the Sox really needed this one. And he was determined not to let it get away. Boston is now 4 and 2 against the Rays.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]I agree Ex Re: all stops - wanted to win that game, the number of reliever changes had the feel of the post season.

    Happily for BV and the RS the bullpen is establishing roles. Miller and Hill have been pleasant surprises in their roles as has Padilla. When a manager has a certainlevelof confidence in who he has in the bullpen and what roles they can serve, it makes a huge difference IMHo in terms of what moves he can and will make.

    For all I think that BV might have been slow with the hook for his starters a number of occassions in the early going, his BP has logged more IP than any other in the game. The more I think about it considering that you can burn up relievers pretty easily, it certainly mitigates the tendency to leave starting pitchers in 1 batter past the point of failure. Because for all it may feel like starters have often stayed in too long, facts are Valentine still has had to use his BP more than any other manager season-to-date.


     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    In Response to Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.:
    [QUOTE]Rob Murphy is a guy who lost effectiveness because of over-throwing in a setup role. That's one example from the past years. There were rubber arm guys like Mike Timlin, but few lasted as long as Mike in that capacity. Many have those 70-80 appearance years, then fade out. They don't have the same effectiveness from over-use. But no one ever says your pen is over-used. They instead say, don't tax your starter. I go: Say what?????
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    In 90 they only had 3 relievers they could count on though
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: BV masterful with the BP tonite.

    drew, reliability is always a factor with relievers, so that does affect appearances. but managers don't concern themselves with the health of their relievers, just the coddleness of the starters. I really believe MLB is all screwed up salary wise. Hell, I think setup guys, middle guys and closers all should command great salaries, not just SPs. It's a con game. Starters aren't as important as they were when the guys were throwing 250 IP regularly. They are very important, and the Sox are hurting because of their overall ineffectivenss, but I don't value a 200 inning pitcher as so much more than the 80-appearance reliever. the 80-appearance reliever has more effect on the outcome of many more games. The starter has effect on 36 games total. 1 person. A reliever can have an effect on half of a team's games. 1 person.
     
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