Calling All Sugar Coaters....

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    [QUOTE]I like what I just heard on the radio, put Beckett on waivers today. Irrevocable.
    Posted by EnchiladaT[/QUOTE]

    yeah but he meant "unconditional" I think - but like I said 2 years ago and what they echoed today:  no one would take him.  Actually, I was wrong.  I said no one would take him for a player to be named later.  What they said this morning was no one would take him for NOTHING!  Unbelievable.  This was probably the first of the worst moves Theo has made that led to this team's downfall....
     
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    [QUOTE]In other words moon should be along any moment now to tell us what a good value Beckett is as a #4.
    Posted by EnchiladaT[/QUOTE]

    LOL

    Clay Bucholtz - the best #7 starter in the history of baseball!
     
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    In Response to Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters....:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Calling All Sugar Coaters....": Wasn't it you, a year or more ago, who wanted the Red Sox to sign Scott Kasmir and John Garland?
    Posted by Pass-the-hubris-please[/QUOTE]

    So what?  The reason was because they have no pitching depth in the minors.  They would have been low priced, one year deals.  Not too many guys would be worse than the garbage they are throwing out there now.......
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters.... : don't you love it when some Sox fans think they are "better" fans because they simply lack a grasp of reality?
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    LOL. I think some fans do think they are "better", simply because they are more (blindly) loyal. An interesting philosophical question, no doubt, but for myself, I prefer the realistic perspective. 
     
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    Being Realistic is much better.  That way when I say I am seeing a championship team destined for Boston it will actually be well, a realistic statement based on data and observations and not "blind loyality".  You gotta wonder if people really believed in the Winter of 1997 that the Sox would actually "finally win it all that year".........you know, the "real" fans....
     
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    Allow me to state, first, that I am not sugar coating anything here.  This has been depressing to experience.  Last night, absolutely sickening.

    But, my own experience of following the Red Sox is a little different from this Loyal vs. Non-Loyal duality that is being argued.  

    I don't think I can define my commitment to the Red Sox as loyalty per se.  I think, by virtue of having followed the Sox as closely as humanly possible since i was old enough to say "baseball", I am simply committed to the story of the Red Sox.

    We have all experienced some wonderful highs, many horrible lows, and a lot of in-between ho-hum over the years.  To me, it is just very interesting to follow a club closely, to see the connections between generations of players, the arc of success and failure, to know the whole story.  

    Whether or not the club is playing well has no bearing on my interest in following the story.  The current struggles are very interesting to me, especially in light of the lofty perch they have fallen from since the mid naughts.  This is a franchise in turmoil.  I don't know.  Call me crazy, but i find it fascinating.  Frustrating as a fan, of course.  But fascinating nonetheless.  I wonder whether this group of players can somehow right the ship.  Or whether they are doomed to fail.  Whether Bobby Valentine has anything to offer or whether his hiring was one of the great follies of all-time.  In my imagination, I conjure up scenes of a mid-summer resurgence in which the left-for-dead red sox are cooking on all cylendars, the bitter taste of failure spurring their success.  i realize that this may not happen.  but it doesn't stop me from being interested in this chapter of the sox saga.  

    If people want to put the book down in disgust because this chapter is so depressing, that is understandable.  But, how can we experience the great highs without having some lows.  How is the too-unbelievable-for-fiction 2004 chapter possible without generations of falling short, and without the utter heartbreak of 2003?  


     
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    only first third of season.......moves need to be made...but give it time.
     
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    In Response to Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters....:
    [QUOTE]Allow me to state, first, that I am not sugar coating anything here.  This has been depressing to experience.  Last night, absolutely sickening. But, my own experience of following the Red Sox is a little different from this Loyal vs. Non-Loyal duality that is being argued.   I don't think I can define my commitment to the Red Sox as loyalty per se.  I think, by virtue of having followed the Sox as closely as humanly possible since i was old enough to say "baseball", I am simply committed to the story of the Red Sox. We have all experienced some wonderful highs, many horrible lows, and a lot of in-between ho-hum over the years.  To me, it is just very interesting to follow a club closely, to see the connections between generations of players, the arc of success and failure, to know the whole story.   Whether or not the club is playing well has no bearing on my interest in following the story.  The current struggles are very interesting to me, especially in light of the lofty perch they have fallen from since the mid naughts.  This is a franchise in turmoil.  I don't know.  Call me crazy, but i find it fascinating.  Frustrating as a fan, of course.  But fascinating nonetheless.  I wonder whether this group of players can somehow right the ship.  Or whether they are doomed to fail.  Whether Bobby Valentine has anything to offer or whether his hiring was one of the great follies of all-time.  In my imagination, I conjure up scenes of a mid-summer resurgence in which the left-for-dead red sox are cooking on all cylendars, the bitter taste of failure spurring their success.  i realize that this may not happen.  but it doesn't stop me from being interested in this chapter of the sox saga.   If people want to put the book down in disgust because this chapter is so depressing, that is understandable.  But, how can we experience the great highs without having some lows.  How is the too-unbelievable-for-fiction 2004 chapter possible without generations of falling short, and without the utter heartbreak of 2003?  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    You are a good fan and I mean that.  And I agree with you for the most part.

    But I did warn you of this year and of Beckett since the extension and especially this year and definitely last night and correct me if I am wrong but you did mock me? 

    On a more positive note, which I have also been saying for over 6 months now as well, is that there is a lot of potential for the team to be good next year.  However, I should also warn you that I see 2013 as a short window before guys like Ortiz, Ellsbury, and Youkilis potentially move on.....
     
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    Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters....

    The sugar coating is that while yesterday's performance was terrible, all pitchers have terrible performances throughout the year, and it was only the second time this year that Beckett has given up more than 3 runs.  

    It's been a disappointing start to the season, but do you honestly think that Beckett, Lester and Buchholz will finish the season with ERAs 2, 1 and 5 higher than their career averages?  If not, you have to think we have some winning streaks headed our way.

     
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    I think you know my position on all of that already.

    Prognsosis - NEGATIVE!
     
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    In Response to Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters.... : You are a good fan and I mean that.  And I agree with you for the most part. But I did warn you of this year and of Beckett since the extension and especially this year and definitely last night and correct me if I am wrong but you did mock me?  On a more positive note, which I have also been saying for over 6 months now as well, is that there is a lot of potential for the team to be good next year.  However, I should also warn you that I see 2013 as a short window before guys like Ortiz, Ellsbury, and Youkilis potentially move on.....
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    You did warn me A-mitch.  I just don't heed warnings of disaster because it doesn't matter to me to dwell on that stuff.  It's not that I don't see the negative signs or that I don't recognize bad contracts and their consequences.  I just choose not to dwell on them, because that seems antithetical to my enjoyment of baseball.  
     
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    Big Josh 4 previous starts

    27 2/3 innings

    2.93 ERA
     
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    It's really hard to root for this team.  I am at the point now where I am just following to see how low they can fall and what else I can witness for the first time.  And what it will take before a mgt realizes they have to make a major transformation.  I am telling you that you are going to some things that you have never seen before - things you can't even imagine right now.  Heed my warnings and brace yourself.  I am usually correct even though not too many out here will concede that.....

    OK - Lunch time and almost time to tune into Mazz & Felger - I can not wait to hear them rip "the Texas Tough Guy"........

     
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    Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters....

    Maybe Clay needs some chicken and beer!

    April 8 at Detroit: 4.0 IP, 8 H, 7 ER

    April 14 vs. Tampa Bay: 7.0 IP, 6 H, 5 ER

    April 20 vs. New York: 6.0 IP, 9 H, 5 ER

    April 25 at Minnesota: 5.1 IP, 10 H, 5 ER

    April 30 vs. Oakland: 6.2 IP, 7 H, 6 ER

    May 6 vs. Baltimore: 3.2 IP, 7 H, 6 ER

     
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    In Response to Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters....:
    [QUOTE]Allow me to state, first, that I am not sugar coating anything here.  This has been depressing to experience.  Last night, absolutely sickening. But, my own experience of following the Red Sox is a little different from this Loyal vs. Non-Loyal duality that is being argued.   I don't think I can define my commitment to the Red Sox as loyalty per se.  I think, by virtue of having followed the Sox as closely as humanly possible since i was old enough to say "baseball", I am simply committed to the story of the Red Sox. We have all experienced some wonderful highs, many horrible lows, and a lot of in-between ho-hum over the years.  To me, it is just very interesting to follow a club closely, to see the connections between generations of players, the arc of success and failure, to know the whole story.   Whether or not the club is playing well has no bearing on my interest in following the story.  The current struggles are very interesting to me, especially in light of the lofty perch they have fallen from since the mid naughts.  This is a franchise in turmoil.  I don't know.  Call me crazy, but i find it fascinating.  Frustrating as a fan, of course.  But fascinating nonetheless.  I wonder whether this group of players can somehow right the ship.  Or whether they are doomed to fail.  Whether Bobby Valentine has anything to offer or whether his hiring was one of the great follies of all-time.  In my imagination, I conjure up scenes of a mid-summer resurgence in which the left-for-dead red sox are cooking on all cylendars, the bitter taste of failure spurring their success.  i realize that this may not happen.  but it doesn't stop me from being interested in this chapter of the sox saga.   If people want to put the book down in disgust because this chapter is so depressing, that is understandable.  But, how can we experience the great highs without having some lows.  How is the too-unbelievable-for-fiction 2004 chapter possible without generations of falling short, and without the utter heartbreak of 2003?  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    Right on, Space, and you are indeed correct that in baseball, as in life, the inponderable joys of 2004 are not possible without the equally imponderable sorrows of 1986 (and other years!). I even appreciate how you describe your "fascination" with some of the phenomena taking place this year, but the one thing I cannot abide, and which I would be surprised if it "fascinates" rather than simply annoys you too, is thoughtless arrongance. I don't have any idea if Beckett still "cares", but I do know that he basically thumbed his nose at every hard working fan when he not only spent the day playing golf instead of rehabing but later responded by saying, effectively, "I don't answer to you and don't care what you think, I do what I want."
     
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    In Response to Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters.... : Right on, Space, and you are indeed correct that in baseball, as in life, the inponderable joys of 2004 are not possible without the equally imponderable sorrows of 1986 (and other years!). I even appreciate how you describe your "fascination" with some of the phenomena taking place this year, but the one thing I cannot abide, and which I would be surprised if it "fascinates" rather than simply annoys you too, is thoughtless arrongance. I don't have any idea if Beckett still "cares", but I do know that he basically thumbed his nose at every hard working fan when he not only spent the day playing golf instead of rehabing but later responded by saying, effectively, "I don't answer to you and don't care what you think, I do what I want."
    Posted by pschuller[/QUOTE]

    I hear that.  Beckett has behaved like a real sunnuvabich.  My fascination with his potentially tragic flaws doesn't excuse his behavior.  I do think he is out of touch, as I think many super-rich athletes are.  But what is fascinating is when someone's inner workings are played out on such a grand public stage, with so much collective emotion strangely invested in his success or failure.  As Mazz writes, he is on a path much like that of Clemens in Boston.  But, I do not know the end of this story yet.  He has opportunity for redemption yet.  Either way ... fascinating.  
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters.... : I hear that.  Beckett has behaved like a real sunnuvabich.  My fascination with his potentially tragic flaws doesn't excuse his behavior.  I do think he is out of touch, as I think many super-rich athletes are.  But what is fascinating is when someone's inner workings are played out on such a grand public stage, with so much collective emotion strangely invested in his success or failure.  As Mazz writes, he is on a path much like that of Clemens in Boston.  But, I do not know the end of this story yet.  He has opportunity for redemption yet.  Either way ... fascinating.  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    Well the other piece of it is...does Beckett really care.

    It's the whole Keith Foulke "Johnny from Burger King" thing.  Beckett has been very successful, has won championships and is incredibly rich.

    This is no knock on Geo or Andrew but the bleatings of the masses on boston.com probably don't matter to a dude like beckett at all.  He has been pretty clear with his comments about the chicken and beer thing and the golfing thing that he thinks people obsessed with his behavior and performance are idiots and he doesn't need to answer to them.

    Which of course pizzes off the Geo's and the Andrew's even more.

    I mean does anyone really think that JD Drew right now is sitting at his mansion saying "man if I tried harder Andrewmitch would have liked me better".

    I have no doubt that Beckett does his best when he is out on the mound.  but does he care about much anymore? Probably not.
     
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    In Response to Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters....:
    [QUOTE]Allow me to state, first, that I am not sugar coating anything here.  This has been depressing to experience.  Last night, absolutely sickening. But, my own experience of following the Red Sox is a little different from this Loyal vs. Non-Loyal duality that is being argued.   I don't think I can define my commitment to the Red Sox as loyalty per se.  I think, by virtue of having followed the Sox as closely as humanly possible since i was old enough to say "baseball", I am simply committed to the story of the Red Sox. We have all experienced some wonderful highs, many horrible lows, and a lot of in-between ho-hum over the years.  To me, it is just very interesting to follow a club closely, to see the connections between generations of players, the arc of success and failure, to know the whole story.   Whether or not the club is playing well has no bearing on my interest in following the story.  The current struggles are very interesting to me, especially in light of the lofty perch they have fallen from since the mid naughts.  This is a franchise in turmoil.  I don't know.  Call me crazy, but i find it fascinating.  Frustrating as a fan, of course.  But fascinating nonetheless.  I wonder whether this group of players can somehow right the ship.  Or whether they are doomed to fail.  Whether Bobby Valentine has anything to offer or whether his hiring was one of the great follies of all-time.  In my imagination, I conjure up scenes of a mid-summer resurgence in which the left-for-dead red sox are cooking on all cylendars, the bitter taste of failure spurring their success.  i realize that this may not happen.  but it doesn't stop me from being interested in this chapter of the sox saga.   If people want to put the book down in disgust because this chapter is so depressing, that is understandable.  But, how can we experience the great highs without having some lows.  How is the too-unbelievable-for-fiction 2004 chapter possible without generations of falling short, and without the utter heartbreak of 2003?  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]
    Nice post! Well thought out and well written.
     
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    Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters....

    In Response to Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters.... : I hear that.  Beckett has behaved like a real sunnuvabich.  My fascination with his potentially tragic flaws doesn't excuse his behavior.  I do think he is out of touch, as I think many super-rich athletes are.  But what is fascinating is when someone's inner workings are played out on such a grand public stage, with so much collective emotion strangely invested in his success or failure.  As Mazz writes, he is on a path much like that of Clemens in Boston.  But, I do not know the end of this story yet.  He has opportunity for redemption yet.  Either way ... fascinating.  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]


    All good points, and we all are duly reminded to believe in and hope for redemption. And I think I understand your fascination, because it strikes me that perhaps Beckett is just an egregious case of the pro athlete now completely run amuck, so rich and privileged at this point that they are completely out of touch and really do not understand why hard working fans could be that upset when their well paid athletes don't give it their all.
     
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    In Response to Calling All Sugar Coaters....:
    [QUOTE]Calling all you delusional sugar coaters........I am dying to hear your take on Josh Beckett's start tonight...........
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    I lost a lot of respect for Beckett following the golf incident.  He needed to come out and pitch a gem after that, or at least own up to it.  His performance over the course of his current contract has been par (golf pun) with his salary, but he isn't worth the headache any more.  Enough is enough.
     
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    Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters....


    So many things about this thread not to like.

    One real problem with threads like this is that they were created solely for gloating purposes.  This is how the  George Will Pessimist Crowd operates

    Another problem is calling out other fans who didn't want to see Beckett go, and the obvious failure to see that our opionion didn't matter.  Even if every fan agreed with the OP, Beckett would still be here.  In fact, that is the actual theme of this very thread.

    Naturally this is an OP who disappears when the team is going well.  OK, some people use this website as a sounding board for frustration.  If andrewmitch comes out here, rants for 20 minutes, and is a more pleasant husband/father/pet owner/outer space alien hellbent on conquest of Earth/whatever because of it, I have no problem with that. 

    However, dude, at some point, try and prove to the world that you are a fan of baseball and not simply a fan of winning teams.  The constant harkening back tio the 1970's as the "Glory Years" don't do this for me.  The team was winning then, too.  I can assume you took the Hobson Years off, then. And that you have no idea who Ivan Calderon is.

    If you are a bandwagon fan, fine.  However, if you believe the season is over, please hop on your bandwagon and ride it elsewhere.  The Celtics are still playing...

     
     
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    Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters....

    In Response to Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Calling All Sugar Coaters.... : You did warn me A-mitch.  I just don't heed warnings of disaster because it doesn't matter to me to dwell on that stuff.  It's not that I don't see the negative signs or that I don't recognize bad contracts and their consequences.  I just choose not to dwell on them, because that seems antithetical to my enjoyment of baseball.  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    Maximum points awarded!
     
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