1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Red-Sox-Nation-Netherlands. Show Red-Sox-Nation-Netherlands's posts

    Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 1:32 PM EST

    When I was reading a recent FanGraphs article about Pinedas pitches I noticed he works mostly of his fastball. His next pitch is a slider and he also uses a change-up every now and then. These are the same pitches Bard uses and he might even develop other pitches he didnt have to use out of the bullpen. A lot of people don't like the idea of Bard moving to the rotation but I feel actually really good about it. Just look at CJ Wilson who relieved for 5 years and moved to the rotation at 30. Bard has relieved for 3 years and is only 27 next year. He has some amazing stuff and if he doesn't run out of gas at the end of the year he might just be better then Pineda. A interesting discussion is taking place at soxprospects.com with some analysis in it.
     

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    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 2:24 PM EST

    Other than age, I like that comparison.  I, too, am I on the idea of Bard as a starter.  I know that that is how the Sox envisioned him when they drafted him.

    Always cheaper to find good relief help than good starters.  Bard will be a good starter, IMO.  He can be replaced in the pen much more cheaply.  Maybe Doubront, or one of the myriad resurrection projects BC has signed, Padilla being the most recent.
     

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 2:37 PM EST

    Only if you have to trade your top minor league prospect for him

    Tongue out
     

  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 2:42 PM EST

    I'm not sure what to expect from Bard as a starter.  I think he has ace potential, but my fear is that it's too much to ask that he triple his innings from one year to the next, and that he will be over-exposed.  If he doesn't work out as a starter, he might not be able to just jump back into the bullpen and be as effective.  

    I wouldn't mind seeing the Sox go with a modified rotation for their 4 & 5 starters.  Maybe the first time through they go with Bard & Aceves, and the next time through it's Tazawa and Miller.  Whoever is not used is the cleanup guy if somebody falters.  That way, everybody gets a shot, nobody is over-used, and if nobody is working out by July, we can still get a guy like Greinke or McCarthy.
     

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    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 2:56 PM EST

    If Bard's changeup has developed into a legit 3rd pitch, then there is no reason why he can't be a successful starter. Obviously, how many innings he can give the Sox is a concern, but CJ Wilson went from 74 innings pitched as a reliever to 204 his first year in rotation, then threw 223 last year. If he starts to tire mid-season, a 2 week rest with a phantom injury may be enough to get him through the 2nd half...
     

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    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 3:04 PM EST

    I think Bard will have great success at the job IF he works on his stamina.  Obviously his innings will have limit this coming season if Bard moves into the rotation and also he won't probably stay long in the game throwing over 100 pitches regularly.  I think 2012 season will be his bridge year to a fulltime starter.  And If you see his fastballs and sliders, he wouldn't have any problems to be a solid starter if he doesn't get overused. 
     

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 3:36 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?:
    I think Bard will have great success at the job IF he works on his stamina.  Obviously his innings will have limit this coming season if Bard moves into the rotation and also he won't probably stay long in the game throwing over 100 pitches regularly.  I think 2012 season will be his bridge year to a fulltime starter.  And If you see his fastballs and sliders, he wouldn't have any problems to be a solid starter if he doesn't get overused. 
    Posted by seannybboi

    If he's going to be a starter, then he needs to go into ST with the mind set that he needs to throw complete games each and every time out. Major league baseball is a nine inning game. I personally would hope that Bobby V. won't be as rigid on the "pitch count" as the previous manager and coaches were. We all know that he won't throw complete games every time out, but it is a goal. If all the starters have the same attitude, then the bullpen won't be over tired if and when they're needed.
     

  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 3:50 PM EST

    A pitcher is a pitcher is a pitcher.

    If a guy can be successful as a reliever can be effective as a starter.

    Bard has to work on his other pitches besides his fastball.

    ..and then there is the issue of getting him "stretched out."

    They are working on it, this device was delivered to the Sox Spring Training facility yesterday morning:




     

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    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 4:18 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?:
    A pitcher is a pitcher is a pitcher. If a guy can be successful as a reliever can be effective as a starter. Bard has to work on his other pitches besides his fastball. ..and then there is the issue of getting him "stretched out." They are working on it, this device was delivered to the Sox Spring Training facility yesterday morning:
    Posted by ZILLAGOD


    You're so right, see Joba Chamberlain's success as a starter.
     

  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 4:22 PM EST

    In response to "Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?":
    A pitcher is a pitcher is a pitcher. If a guy can be successful as a reliever can be effective as a starter. Bard has to work on his other pitches besides his fastball. ..and then there is the issue of getting him "stretched out." They are working on it, this device was delivered to the Sox Spring Training facility yesterday morning: Posted by ZILLAGOD
    You're so right. See CJ Wilson's success as a starter.
     

  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 4:22 PM EST

    Bard has already shown he can pitch in the ALE. Now we have to wait to see if he can get back to starting which he did in college and in the minors. Pineda pitching in a smaller park in a tougher division may or may not be successful. Last years 3.87 era may be on the rise.
     

  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 4:22 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?:
    In Response to Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda? : You're so right, see Joba Chamberlain's success as a starter.
    Posted by Camelwalk


    The Yankees didn't "stretch him out" properly.

    He was 6'2" in 2009 and he is stil 6'2" in 2012.

    They forgot to order a rack and tried doing it with a rope hung from the ceiling.
     

  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 4:37 PM EST

    Zilla, you got an out loud chuckle from me on that first post.

    I, as a die hard Red Sox fan, have every expectation that Pineda's abilities will not play as well in Yankee stadium as they have in Seattle, a known pitcher's park (just ask Adrian Beltre).

    And I have every hope, again as a die hard Sox fan, that Pineda suffers the sophomore slump.

    Both those things said, the Yankees made a good trade that will help them for years to come.  And Kuroda is insurance should Pineda or Hughes or Garcia or whomever does not pitch successfully enough to stay in the rotation.  But if Kuroda ends up their #2, then they are in deep doo-doo.  He definitely will not enjoy the same success in the ALE.
     

  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from lardin. Show lardin's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 4:37 PM EST

    In Response to Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?:
    When I was reading a recent FanGraphs article about Pinedas pitches I noticed he works mostly of his fastball. His next pitch is a slider and he also uses a change-up every now and then. These are the same pitches Bard uses and he might even develop other pitches he didnt have to use out of the bullpen. A lot of people don't like the idea of Bard moving to the rotation but I feel actually really good about it. Just look at CJ Wilson who relieved for 5 years and moved to the rotation at 30. Bard has relieved for 3 years and is only 27 next year. He has some amazing stuff and if he doesn't run out of gas at the end of the year he might just be better then Pineda. A interesting discussion is taking place at soxprospects.com with some analysis in it. What do you think? http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/pinedas-pitches/ http://forum-soxprospects.com/topic/7330/The-Sox-Answer-to-Pineda-Daniel-Bard#.TxRVfKVSe5A
    Posted by Red-Sox-Nation-Netherlands


    No Bard can not be Pineida.  Pinieda  threw 179 innings last year. Bard throught what, 70?  That alone is the difference.  It will take Bard about 3 years to get to that number, assuming the sox follow the Verducci rule..
     

  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 4:42 PM EST

    In response to "Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?":
    In Response to Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda? : No Bard can not be Pineida.  Pinieda  threw 179 innings last year. Bard throught what, 70?  That alone is the difference.  It will take Bard about 3 years to get to that number, assuming the sox follow the Verducci rule.. Posted by lardin
    CJ Wilson went from 73 to 204 to 223 innings pitched. Why can't Bard?
     

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 4:44 PM EST

    I expect Bard to pitch about 150 innings, doubling his innings, in 2012.  That is not far from what Pineda pitched last season (and he faded significantly down the stretch at that).  But CJ Wilson went from about 70 ip to 200 ip in one season.  So, it can be done.
     

  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from lardin. Show lardin's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 4:52 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?:
    In response to "Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?": CJ Wilson went from 73 to 204 to 223 innings pitched. Why can't Bard?
    Posted by jasko2248


    Because Nolan Ryan doesnt believe in pitch counts, while the Sox do.  Bard could be as good as Pineida, just dont expect this year or next as the Sox will not let his innings jump that much.  Hes never thrown more thatn 80 innings as a pro.  Also a side note, Cj threw more than 100 innings three times in the minors.
     

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    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 5:05 PM EST

    In response to "Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?":
    In Response to Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda? : Because Nolan Ryan doesnt believe in pitch counts, while the Sox do.  Bard could be as good as Pineida, just dont expect this year or next as the Sox will not let his innings jump that much.  Hes never thrown more thatn 80 innings as a pro.  Also a side note, Cj threw more than 100 innings three times in the minors. Posted by lardin
    Don't be so sure. Bob Mclure may have a different philosophy regarding pitch counts than his predecessors and at this point, none of us know what the plan is for Bard's workload. To say he "can't" give us 175 innings (Pineda innings) is simply an assumption, with no factual basis...
     

  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from slakrking. Show slakrking's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 5:47 PM EST

    why expect 200+ innings, if he can deliver 150 quality innings I think that would be more realistic and achievable
     

  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from lhtak. Show lhtak's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 6:06 PM EST

    I have to admit that this is one experiment I am excited about for the year 2012. I think he will be a good starter; he proved to be a decent releiver, and he wants to be in starter role. He will bust his butt off to be a starter.
     

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    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 6:57 PM EST

    If you have a really good arm like Bard why not try to get 200 ip from it, better than 60. Relievers are easier/cheaper to find than good starting pitching. I've liked the idea of Bard to rotation from the begining. While he might max @ 130-150 this year, with Dice coming back mid season might work out perfectly, then Bard could slip back to the pen late in the season. But the similarity to Pineda is a good one, both plus fastballs and slider is out pitch and both use changeup less than 10%. If either masters the change could be top of rotation starter.
     

  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from lardin. Show lardin's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 8:49 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?:
    In response to "Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?": Don't be so sure. Bob Mclure may have a different philosophy regarding pitch counts than his predecessors and at this point, none of us know what the plan is for Bard's workload. To say he "can't" give us 175 innings (Pineda innings) is simply an assumption, with no factual basis...
    Posted by jasko2248


    Is he the GM or the team president?  Knowing what you know about Luchino, do you think that decision gets made by the pitching coach or by the front office..

     

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    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 8:57 PM EST

    In response to "Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?":
    In Response to Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda? : Is he the GM or the team president?  Knowing what you know about Luchino, do you think that decision gets made by the pitching coach or by the front office.. Posted by lardin
    Bob Mclure's the new pitching coach, and no, Larry Lucchino, or anyone else in the front office, will have any say in how many innings Daniel Bard will throw next year...that I do know...
     

  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 9:08 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?:
    In response to "Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?": You're so right. See CJ Wilson's success as a starter.
    Posted by jasko2248


    Really throwing that CJ Wilson example around in this thread.
     

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    Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?

    posted at 1/16/2012 9:19 PM EST

    In response to "Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda?":
    In Response to Re: Can Bard be the Sox' Pineda? : Really throwing that CJ Wilson example around in this thread. Posted by Camelwalk
    Only where applicable...he's just an example of someone who's had success making the conversion from reliever to starter. Only an idiot would cite one example of a failure or a success and assume Bard will be either...