Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew


    redsoxfireman excels in revisionist history.  Fact:  the Sox liked Iglesias a lot, which is why they paid him $2 million a year to play minor league ball.  Fact:  Iglesias was lined up to be the starting SS in 2013 until he bombed in his call-up in 2012.  So the Sox signed a one year veteran to hold down the fort--which he has done way better than anyone expected and earned every dime of his paycheck--until Iglesias could hit.  Fact:  with Drew as the regular shortstop and ranked 5th best in the AL, the Sox this year, 2013, engineered a spectacular turnaround from the disastrous 2012 season (which Iglesias contributed to) and won 97 games.  Fact:  as good as Iglesias might be, Drew this year has been demonstrably better.  Prediction:  Bogaerts is almost certain to have a higher WAR at SS than Iglesias next year, and Bogaerts is younger and cheaper. 

    Ironically, I always liked the idea of Iglesias as the Sox SS.  He is a brilliant fielder and great fun to watch.  And I for darn sure never thought Drew would amount to much.  But by now it is clear to everyone except redsoxfireman that getting Drew was a smart move.  He has been one of many keys to this season. 

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:

    In response to RedSoxFireman's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    , I would pick Drew easily cuz he is already capable to be top 10 all around SS for the next many years.  For Bogaerts, we all do not know what kind of a player he will be from now to the next five years.  But the negative side, can Drew stays healthy for the next three years??  That is my concern.


    Contradition which makes the case against Drew's signing in the first place.

    Top 10 all around SS in the AL isn't even one of the better league SS's.

    It's not a question. Drew can't stay healthy over the next year. He missed time beyond the concussion, yet his 117 games started and finished is like the max for this guy in the last 3 years. 

    But who cares about his fragile constitution, no value in uloading 10M a year vs. the alternatives. Whoever gurantees a bunch of money to S. Drew will regret it. 

     

     



    When you're not lying, you are making up ridiculous statistics to defend your even more ridiculous positions.  Games played, Stephen Drew, 2007-2013:

     

    • 2007:  150
    • 2008:  152
    • 2009:  135
    • 2010:  151
    • 2011:   86 (4 April until he broke his leg on 20 July)
    • 2012:   79 (27 June, once recovered from broken leg, through 3 October
    • 2013:   124

    He had two seasons ruined by the same serious injury.  Presumably you know that - though who knows? - and you just pretend it's proof he's injury prone to support your absurd hatred of him.

    Got the games played from B-R and noticed this new info:  Stephen Drew, 501 PA, 67 RBI...average MLB player from 501 PAs:  52.  That's average PLAYER....and he's a SS in case you didn't know that either.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Just like Peyton Mannings.  Indy Colts do not want him anymore cuz he missed a season due of neck injury.  Now Denver is on the pace to go to the Superbowl while Indy is on the pace to make into the playoff or maybe not.

    So who you rather have Peyton or Luck??

    That is my point!!

    Drew had a foot problem, and corrected it.  Now he is a much better player.  Reason he missed games is concussion.  It is not his fault.  It was a stupid pitcher who threw a nasty pitch to Drew where Drew couldnt get out of the way.  Who know it could have been Papi instead.    then all these fans here would whine about why we signed Papi for two years and he missed 40 games due to concussion!!

    Anyway, I seriously prefer to see Drew at SS next year, but I know he ll be gone cuz he isnt going to just take one year deal.  I would be shock if he did!!

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:


    redsoxfireman excels in revisionist history.  Fact:  the Sox liked Iglesias a lot, which is why they paid him $2 million a year to play minor league ball.  Fact:  Iglesias was lined up to be the starting SS in 2013 until he bombed in his call-up in 2012.  So the Sox signed a one year veteran to hold down the fort--which he has done way better than anyone expected and earned every dime of his paycheck--until Iglesias could hit.  Fact:  with Drew as the regular shortstop and ranked 5th best in the AL, the Sox this year, 2013, engineered a spectacular turnaround from the disastrous 2012 season (which Iglesias contributed to) and won 97 games.  Fact:  as good as Iglesias might be, Drew this year has been demonstrably better.  Prediction:  Bogaerts is almost certain to have a higher WAR at SS than Iglesias next year, and Bogaerts is younger and cheaper. 

    Ironically, I always liked the idea of Iglesias as the Sox SS.  He is a brilliant fielder and great fun to watch.  And I for darn sure never thought Drew would amount to much.  But by now it is clear to everyone except redsoxfireman that getting Drew was a smart move.  He has been one of many keys to this season. 




    Pretty much hit the nail on the head......  It's simply the way sports work and why the Patriots have been so successful.  A player earns his job by performing....if they are not performing then somebody will need to come in and replace that player.  The position was Iggy's for good had he won it.  Instead he was often injured in the minors and didn't earn the position when it was all but handed to him last year.  He left the team with no choice other than to go out and get somebody for a year.  Much like JBJ did.  He won the job is ST....then tanked BAD when he was here so he was demoted.

    Yes he did well this year....but he was no better than a singles hitter who played solid defense.  He netted us a solid starter in return.  I was expecting bigger things from Peavy but who knows what will happen in the playoffs......

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    softy is not a Red Sox fan.

    really, who cares what the Cardinals will do during this offseason at this moment.  game 1 ALDS is 2 days away.....

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    I'm willing to bet there is a GM who is willing to give up a draft pick for Stephen Drew.  

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    We could sign Drew to something like $33 to 36M/3 and trade him to the Cards.

    The Cards gain by not losing a draft pick, and we gain a prospect.

    Sox4ever

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    We could sign Drew to something like $33 to 36M/3 and trade him to the Cards.

    The Cards gain by not losing a draft pick, and we gain a prospect.

    Sox4ever



    This has been raised in the past the union would scream collusion.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to BosoxJoe5's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    We could sign Drew to something like $33 to 36M/3 and trade him to the Cards.

    The Cards gain by not losing a draft pick, and we gain a prospect.

    Sox4ever

     



    This has been raised in the past the union would scream collusion.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    They'd have to wait until May or June.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:


    redsoxfireman excels in revisionist history.  Fact:  the Sox liked Iglesias a lot, which is why they paid him $2 million a year to play minor league ball.  Fact:  Iglesias was lined up to be the starting SS in 2013 until he bombed in his call-up in 2012.  So the Sox signed a one year veteran to hold down the fort--which he has done way better than anyone expected and earned every dime of his paycheck--until Iglesias could hit.  Fact:  with Drew as the regular shortstop and ranked 5th best in the AL, the Sox this year, 2013, engineered a spectacular turnaround from the disastrous 2012 season (which Iglesias contributed to) and won 97 games.  Fact:  as good as Iglesias might be, Drew this year has been demonstrably better.  Prediction:  Bogaerts is almost certain to have a higher WAR at SS than Iglesias next year, and Bogaerts is younger and cheaper. 

    Ironically, I always liked the idea of Iglesias as the Sox SS.  He is a brilliant fielder and great fun to watch.  And I for darn sure never thought Drew would amount to much.  But by now it is clear to everyone except redsoxfireman that getting Drew was a smart move.  He has been one of many keys to this season. 



    Trying to tie responses to two or three posts into this one...

    1)  Please do not tie my reasons for wanting Iggy in with Redsoxfireman's reasons.  My desire to keep him had very little to do with this season and almost everything to do with the future.  I said in an earlier thread that I see the best IF for 2012 as being (L>R) Middy, Drew, Pedey, Napoli.  I was confident that Iggy's defense would earn him the starting SS role in 2014, and opinion that hasn't changed.

    2)  I agree completely that Bogart's WAR will be higher in any given year than Iggy's and it's because of the way WAR is calculated.  WAR is an almost entirely offensive metric in that of the six components the first five are offense-related and the sixth is a positional adjustment.  The positional adjustment is performed by adjusting the total of the first five by a given number depending on the player's position.  In short, it assumes that one SS is as good as another and gives no weight to an outstanding defensive player over another at the same position,  i.e. it assumes Bogarts and Iggy are equal defensively. They're not.  But WAR by it's nature gives preference to the better offensive player. Which Bogarts is.  hence, higher WAR for Bogarts.

    3) I was asked if I'd rather have Iggy or Drew up with the team a couple of runs down.  Of course it would be Drew, although I'm not sure how Drew got dragged into this.  But the discussion isn't about Iggy vs. Drew.  They don't evenplay on the same team any more. The discussion was about Iggy being pinch hit for by a member of the Tigers.  Baseball is full of guys whom I'd rather have up than Iggy late in the game with the team a couple of runs down, along with several players on the Tigers as well as several players on the Red Sox.  What that proves is that he's less liable to get an extra base hit than the guy who hits for him.  No surprise there!  To say that he's been pulled "multiple times" late in games and follow it up with, "draw your own conclusions" is.. well... disingenous and a somwhat snarky way of saying, "See how right I was?" 

    I'll say this one more time:  I have absolutely no issue with the signing of Drew or Drew's role on the team.  I do not believe that Iggy should be the SS in place of Drew.  I believe that Iggy's role in 2013 should be that of UIF, with an opportunity to fight for the SS position in 2014. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to S5's comment:

    2)  I agree completely that Bogart's WAR will be higher in any given year than Iggy's and it's because of the way WAR is calculated.  WAR is an almost entirely offensive metric in that of the six components the first five are offense-related and the sixth is a positional adjustment.  The positional adjustment is performed by adjusting the total of the first five by a given number depending on the player's position.  In short, it assumes that one SS is as good as another and gives no weight to an outstanding defensive player over another at the same position,  i.e. it assumes Bogarts and Iggy are equal defensively. They're not.  But WAR by it's nature gives preference to the better offensive player. Which Bogarts is.  hence, higher WAR for Bogarts.



    This isn't correct.  Mark Belanger, the ultimate good-field no-hit SS, had 7 seasons with a WAR of 3 or higher, including a 5.6 in 1976. 

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to S5's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    2)  I agree completely that Bogart's WAR will be higher in any given year than Iggy's and it's because of the way WAR is calculated.  WAR is an almost entirely offensive metric in that of the six components the first five are offense-related and the sixth is a positional adjustment.  The positional adjustment is performed by adjusting the total of the first five by a given number depending on the player's position.  In short, it assumes that one SS is as good as another and gives no weight to an outstanding defensive player over another at the same position,  i.e. it assumes Bogarts and Iggy are equal defensively. They're not.  But WAR by it's nature gives preference to the better offensive player. Which Bogarts is.  hence, higher WAR for Bogarts.

     



    This isn't correct.  Mark Belanger, the ultimate good-field no-hit SS, had 7 seasons with a WAR of 3 or higher, including a 5.6 in 1976. 

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Right.

    Fangraphs has Victorino listed as the top RF'er in MLB with a 5.6 WAR. Was this based on his offense? Not hardly. I actually think WAR over-values defense at some positions and may undervalues SS defense.

    On the Fangraphs' value page, they have Shane ranked 14th at +11.8 and 2nd on fielding at +24.0 (and +3.0 base running).

    Gerardo Parra is ranked 4th in RF WAR with a measley .268 BA and .726 OPS.

    WAR also rewards the player who plays more.

    Out of 29 MLB SSs with 350+ PAs, Drew ranks 7th in WAR at 3.4.

    Iggy ranks 16th at +1.8.

    Drew has about 120 more PAs.

    On the value page, surprisingly Drew ranks 8th on offense at +5.1 and Iggy 10th at +0.9. Drew is -1.3 on baserunning and Iggy is -1.2. Drew is actually helped as much by his fielding than his hitting (and more so when compared to Iggy).

    Fielding:

    Drew is 9th at +5.3 (remember he was +5.1 on offense).

    Iggy is 15th at +0.7 (and was +0.9 on offense).

    The fact that Drew played 1093 innings at SS and Iggy only 572. That's the main reason Drew has a higher fielding ranking. While Drew has fielded well this year, Iggy ranks #5 out of 33 SSs in UZR/150 at +8.3. Drew ranks 9th at +6.7.

    Of the 37 SSs with 750 innings since 2012:

    UZR/150

    2) Iggy +18.3

    5) Ryan +10.4

    22) Drew -1.4

    26) Lowrie -2.9

    33) Furcal  -11.2

    36) Jeter  -17.8

     

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to RedSoxFireman's comment:

    This is.  We could wager on it if you like.  I say he gets a QO and declines.  Loser adds a tag line that says the winner knows more about BB than the loser.


    I didn't say he wouldn't get a QO. I've said it's dubious. If the front offices doesn't have sources that confirm he'll turn down the QO, they are fools to make it. My point is quite clear. Unless I'm sure Drew will turn it down, I'm not making it. Easy call. No need to risk on a big liability for less than top draft compensaton. The Red Sox already have draft picks high enough not to foolishly take that risk.  

    Interested?


    I want to say the next stupid GM go BJ Upton and Carl Crawford for S. Drew. Drew's games started and finished were impressive, only because of his pitiful track record. 

    Let's do this. I say S. Drew's 2014 and 2015 OPS is closer to .750 than to .800, and he doesn't start and finish more than 220 of the 280 plus work load that anyone of his modest talents and aging skillset must start and finish to remotely justify a QO base over 2 years. Divide by 2 on the QO one year.

    Aside from the contract, the acquiring team will lose a young talent slot. I'm not on the inside, or I'd know for sure. Based on what I know, I'm not offering Drew a QO. Napoli and Ellsbury will take care of enough on the QO draft compensation front. Not worth taking a chance on being stuck with that embarrassing contract offer of 9.5M for 2013, for yet another year. Get rid of the guy. I'm no fan of Bogaerts as the long term starting SS, but it's management's bent and I'm delighted to see that over bringing that prima donna mercenary back. Down right embarrassing the way they made reactionary personnel moves to defend the contract offer to Drew.

    Let's both hope the Tigers and Red Sox play, as I'd love to see the player that this Board said "can't hit" get his shot at the GM who put him the doghouse to assuage S. Drew's confidence and defend the contract offer huge value mistake.  

     



    I didn't say he wouldn't get a QO. I've said it's dubious. 

    No, what you said was exactly what I said you said, that No way I make a QO to S. Drew unless I know there's another stupid GM like Cherry who will offer him a bigger contract he'd then take. Saying that you have to 'know' is a terrible philosophy.  A good businessman has to take calculated risks.

    On the rest of it, it makes absolutely no difference what you think he is worth.  It makes no difference what I think he's worth.  All that will matter is if there is another GM, with money, and a need for a SS.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to RedSoxFireman's comment:

    , I would pick Drew easily cuz he is already capable to be top 10 all around SS for the next many years.  For Bogaerts, we all do not know what kind of a player he will be from now to the next five years.  But the negative side, can Drew stays healthy for the next three years??  That is my concern.


    Contradition which makes the case against Drew's signing in the first place.

    Top 10 all around SS in the AL isn't even one of the better league SS's.

    It's not a question. Drew can't stay healthy over the next year. He missed time beyond the concussion, yet his 117 games started and finished is like the max for this guy in the last 3 years. 

    But who cares about his fragile constitution, no value in uloading 10M a year vs. the alternatives. Whoever gurantees a bunch of money to S. Drew will regret it. 

     



    I don't understand why this should bother you.  If I get a first round supplemental, I'll feel great.  I couldn't care less if Drew plays 120 games with a .700, or if he plays 160 games with an .800.  Al I'll care about is the draft pick.  That's where your focus should be.

    Why would you care how Drew does next year?

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    I'm willing to bet there is a GM who is willing to give up a draft pick for Stephen Drew.  



    That was opening remark, asking Softy if he cared to wager on it.  It was a yes or no question, following by about 100 words of obfuscation, none of which addressed my offer.

    Where I come from, a wager is the simplest way of settling matters.  There is always a lot of bluster leading up to that, but after one side makes the offer, the other side either accepts or shuts up.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    Drew is not worth 12.5+ mil per year ...but i would keep him 2 years at this years price...9.5 mil

    As always - 100% correct!

     
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    Drew is not worth 12.5+ mil per year ...but i would keep him 2 years at this years price...9.5 mil

    As always - 100% correct!

     



    I'd rather have the draft pick and Bogey at minimum wage at SS than Drew at $19M/2 with no draft pick.

     

    I know you don't believe in talking budgets, but the $19M you'd spend on Drew could be applied towards upgrading another position in need. The drop off, if any, from Drew to Bogey could and should be more than made up for elsewhere with $19M. Add to that the draft choice, and it's a no brainer to me.

    We don't know if the comp pick will turn out great, good or terrible, but here are a the recent picks between 30-45:

    2013: 45 Stankiewicz

    2012: 31 B Johnson, 37 P Light

    2011: 36 H Owens, 40 JBJ

    2010: 36 Brentz, 39 Ranaudo (57 Workman)

    2009: None

    (Note: I would not give Drew a QO.)

     

     

     

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:

     

     


    Good. Then Drew won't go to the Cardinals. No one seems concerned about clutch hitting. I guess they all play baseball, and it's so much easier for them to do. I'll take a guy whose stats aren't stellar but hits in clutch situations over a guy that hits really well when it doesn't matter anyday. Wasn't that the biggest complaint about ARod? You know, besides steroids.

     

     




    as our beloved poster Bill-806 would say..."Thats a Bingo!"

     

     

    Drew is calm, cool, and collected in the most clutch situations. Sure, hes not come through a few times. Happens to everyone. Hes come through with some very big hits this year late in games. Even when we ended upo not winning, Drew did his part and got on base more times than not.




    Thanks for my first bingo! :) He's someone I would count on when we needed a hit in tough situations. Alot of really good hitters can't come through when it matters. And he's very patient at the plate, which probably makes pitchers crazy as well. He's not going to swing at just anything.

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    Drew is hitting .188 this year against the Rays. Means nothing now, new season. Last 28 days he's hitting .292. He also had a .283 BA at Fenway this year.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to crazyworldoftroybrown's comment:

    Drew is hitting .188 this year against the Rays. Means nothing now, new season. Last 28 days he's hitting .292. He also had a .283 BA at Fenway this year.




    I CANNOT believe we will be playing the Rays. I wanted them gone. If that's true, while I love Drew, I would hate for him to have bad games against the Rays that would just feed the BS about him. He may not play all the games. I just truly believe that Rays have great pitching and I'm not sure anyone does great when we're playing the Rays. They're a nightmare, and I would hate to have them take us out...again.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew


    Players should all be aware that if there going to take a big lead off of a base, the Rays are going to put there foot in front of you, so you may not be able to get back. Keep that in mind before you drift too far away. Horrible to get a hit, or even a walk, and then just be picked off. They seem to love that.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:


    Players should all be aware that if there going to take a big lead off of a base, the Rays are going to put there foot in front of you, so you may not be able to get back. Keep that in mind before you drift too far away. Horrible to get a hit, or even a walk, and then just be picked off. They seem to love that.



    Good reminder.  Apparently, it is legal to block the runner.  

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from 37stories. Show 37stories's posts

    Re: Cardinals Will Not Pay Much for S. Drew

    In response to RedSoxFireman's comment:

    Iglesias was paid way less this year.

    Iglesias had a better year this year.

    Anyone got anything else.



    Nope.

    That pretty much sums it up.

    Good job babe.

     
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