Catchers: A View from the Mound

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    Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound

    It's fun to look at the many ways that successful pitchers have and do manifest the confidence that is necessary for that success. 
    In the minors, Dizzy Dean told the Cardinals that they would win the pennant if they brought him up. "Me and Paul will win X games." They did. He told batters what pitch was coming. 
    Sandy Koufax quietly went about his business once he learned how to do his business. 
    Bob Gibson was outwardly a fierce competitor who never hesitated to let batters know that he though he was better than they. But he was not a strutter.
    These two examples probably reflect differences in temperament more than ones in attitude. Neither man was thought to have an "ego" in the pejorative sense. Neither was a prima donna. To this day, Sandy plays in charity golf tournaments, and by the fourth hole, according to other participants he'll have you thinking that he's just another guy.
    Schilling was larger than life and talked a lot. His presence was felt wherever he went. Needless to say, that quality was very important to the Sox in 2004.
    Whitey Ford was a small man with a cocky demeanor.
    Between starts, Warren Spahn was the class clown. He took his work seriously but perhaps not life itself after his brushes with death in the war. 
    Pedro's antics speak for themselves. So do his accomplishments 
    I use only these few examples to show that style and temperament can either mask or emphasize what we've been talking about. 

     
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    In Response to Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound:
    [QUOTE]somebody referenced Varitek as a future manager. Let's say he was, what does it say about his "Captain" job if the clubhouse was a joke, and he never once called a "Player Only" meeting to get on the rest of the squad. It's happened before, Players Only meeting and if I read this right over the last few months, it never happened with the Sox....Tito I'm sure would have been feeling good if that occurred. So I'm openly questioning Varitek's leadership as a reserve part-time catcher. I think there was a time he voiced an opinion, but my feeling was Millar and Schilling set the tone for the 04 squad and 07 was dictated by the on-field display of Manny/Ortiz with the leadership coming from Lowell/Tek/ and a few others. Varitek's captaincy seems to be transparent based on this past season. This has nothing to do with his ability to catch or performance as a player...This is clubhouse stuff.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    I agree. While Varitek may have been the "captain" when he was an everyday player, it is very difficult to be the clubhouse leader when you are not even the top guy on the team at your position. That "C" on his jersey is an honorific that means little to nothing. (Not to mention that being captain in baseball means very little, it's not like hockey where the captaincy has true value and is an important tradition, or even football where each side of the ball has a designated leader. Baseball doesn't have that same "going to war together" feel that physical games like hockey and football do. In truth, chemistry is wildly overrated in baseball...look at the Yanks of the late 70's or A's of the late 80's...baseball is such an INDIVIDUAL sport, that you can hate the other 24 guys in the room and still win a title).
     
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    In Response to Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound : I agree. While Varitek may have been the "captain" when he was an everyday player, it is very difficult to be the clubhouse leader when you are not even the top guy on the team at your position. That "C" on his jersey is an honorific that means little to nothing. (Not to mention that being captain in baseball means very little, it's not like hockey where the captaincy has true value and is an important tradition, or even football where each side of the ball has a designated leader. Baseball doesn't have that same "going to war together" feel that physical games like hockey and football do. In truth, chemistry is wildly overrated in baseball...look at the Yanks of the late 70's or A's of the late 80's...baseball is such an INDIVIDUAL sport, that you can hate the other 24 guys in the room and still win a title).
    Posted by athens7676[/QUOTE]

    The only way to strip him of the 'C' would be to not bring him back. A 40 year old catcher isn't going to help an aging team. Launch him.

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

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    You mean we had a good  hitting player pretending to be a catcher not long ago.
     
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    In Response to Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound:
    [QUOTE]It's fun to look at the many ways that successful pitchers have and do manifest the confidence that is necessary for that success.  In the minors, Dizzy Dean told the Cardinals that they would win the pennant if they brought him up. "Me and Paul will win X games." They did. He told batters what pitch was coming.  Sandy Koufax quietly went about his business once he learned how to do his business.  Bob Gibson was outwardly a fierce competitor who never hesitated to let batters know that he though he was better than they. But he was not a strutter. These two examples probably reflect differences in temperament more than ones in attitude. Neither man was thought to have an "ego" in the pejorative sense. Neither was a prima donna. To this day, Sandy plays in charity golf tournaments, and by the fourth hole, according to other participants he'll have you thinking that he's just another guy. Schilling was larger than life and talked a lot. His presence was felt wherever he went. Needless to say, that quality was very important to the Sox in 2004. Whitey Ford was a small man with a cocky demeanor. Between starts, Warren Spahn was the class clown. He took his work seriously but perhaps not life itself after his brushes with death in the war.  Pedro's antics speak for themselves. So do his accomplishments  I use only these few examples to show that style and temperament can either mask or emphasize what we've been talking about. 
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    An enjoyable read, ex...nice job. Yes, there are probably as many pitcher types as there are pitchers, and it's probably pretty tough to be a catcher who can tune in to each one's pyche.

    I know you didn't say or imply it, but I want you to know that I didn't mean "ego" in a bad way. Being a pitcher, or point guard, or QB involves having a ton of confidence (if you want to be good anyways). The best at those positions often have supreme confidence in themselves. One might think some of them might feel they can be great no matter who is around them... no matter who catches them in this case, but it seems like just the opposite is true, if we trust what the old-timers (and active pitchers too) say. They relied heavily on their catchers for several things, not just pitch calling, blocking the plate, and throwing.  

    Again, thanks for you input.

     
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    In Response to Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound : An enjoyable read, ex...nice job. Yes, there are probably as many pitcher types as there are pitchers, and it's probably pretty tough to be a catcher who can tune in to each one's pyche. I know you didn't say or imply it, but I want you to know that I didn't mean "ego" in a bad way. Being a pitcher, or point guard, or QB involves having a ton of confidence (if you want to be good anyways). The best at those positions often have supreme confidence in themselves. One might think some of them might feel they can be great no matter who is around them... no matter who catches them in this case, but it seems like just the opposite is true, if we trust what the old-timers (and active pitchers too) say. They relied heavily on their catchers for several things, not just pitch calling, blocking the plate, and throwing.   Again, thanks for you input.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE
    What you meant was completely clear. 

     
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    You don't think Sandy Koufax or Bob Feller was a prima donna?

    LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!

    Ask some other HoFer's who played then.
     
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    In Response to Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound:
    [QUOTE]Ex, amazing posts! Your insights are greatly appreciated. I never pitched baseball, but I did have a go as a knuckleballing softball pitcher with pretty good success. I played mostly 2nd base and recognized the value of good pitching and defense. I'll admit, I missed the boat on catcher's relevance until just recently. Guys like you, harness, and danny have helped me realize my earlier mistakes. 
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
     
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    will you stop screaming in BOLD! You are annoying me. Write in normal font like regular people do - or do you need the attention?
     
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    That was a good read, EX-P. Pitching is precision. A machine-shop worker for 30 years knows his machine well and takes pride in is work; his expertise.
    I believe there some ego mixed in...a good thing if kept in perspective.
    But it's all about precision.

    And beyond the media hype and personality exposure, when UR on that mound, man, it's work. Watch how any pitcher approaches his craft. Watch their demeanor. It's forever challenging. But it's also mundane repetition.
     
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    True, on Koufax. I have played golf with Koufax on many occassions. I recently asked him if he could pitch just as well with any MLB catcher. He told me the catcher meant nothing to him and he could still get MLB hitters out throwing to a AAA catcher for an inning or two.
     
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    Yeah, OK Softy...you play golf with Koufax!!! I am assuming that you named your dog Koufax, and you bring him to the putt-putt with you.

    While I don't think cERA has the same importance that some posters on here do, the catcher CERTAINLY has an effect on the pitcher, and at least the defenders of cERA use facts and numbers to back up their claims... as opposed to you...who uses Ad Hominem attacks, and schoolyard taunts to attempt to make a point.
     
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    In Response to Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound:
    [QUOTE]You don't think Sandy Koufax or Bob Feller was a prima donna? LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!! Ask some other HoFer's who played then.
    Posted by ABQDan[/QUOTE]
    Do you have the names of Sandy's contemporaries who consider him a prima donna?  How about Bob Gibson, a name I actually mentioned? What goods do you have on Bob Feller? He was one of the first, if not the first, ballplayer to enlist when war broke. He was a "regular guy" in the Navy.

     
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    Sadly... if you read interviews with Bob Feller..he's kind of a jerk.

    He was Nolan Ryan before Nolan RYan... if it wasn't for the excessive walks, nobody would have hit either one of those guys.
     
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    Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound

    In Response to Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound:
    [QUOTE]Sadly... if you read interviews with Bob Feller..he's kind of a jerk. He was Nolan Ryan before Nolan RYan... if it wasn't for the excessive walks, nobody would have hit either one of those guys.
    Posted by athens7676[/QUOTE]
    Feller was certainly outspoken. A "jerk" may be a matter of opinion. The question was whether he was a prima donna.
    Walks or no walks, both Ryan and Feller were "hit," sometimes hard. So "nobody" found a way to do it.

     
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    Obviously I was dancing with a lady named "Hyperbole" in that statement.

    Yes, what I said about Feller is a matter of opinion, for sure...however, (not that it matters) my opinion is that Feller was a world champion a**ho*e.
     
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    In Response to Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound:
    [QUOTE]Obviously I was dancing with a lady named "Hyperbole" in that statement. Yes, what I said about Feller is a matter of opinion, for sure...however, (not that it matters) my opinion is that Feller was a world champion a**ho*e.
    Posted by athens7676[/QUOTE]
     It wasn't the "nobody" part that I went to. It was the connection between walks and getting hit. When Ryan was with the Angels, he got his hair parted a few times when he wasn't walking a lot of people.

     
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    I know that expitch... however if Ryan (or Feller for that matter) weren't the walkingist bunch of walkers that ever walked a batter... they MIGHT be the 2 best pitchers ever, however considering all the walks those batter walking walkers handed out... I wouldn't put either one of them in the top 30 pitchers of all time, even though, STUFF wise..they might have been top 10.
     
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    In Response to Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound:
    [QUOTE]I know that expitch... however if Ryan (or Feller for that matter) weren't the walkingist bunch of walkers that ever walked a batter... they MIGHT be the 2 best pitchers ever, however considering all the walks those batter walking walkers handed out... I wouldn't put either one of them in the top 30 pitchers of all time, even though, STUFF wise..they might have been top 10.
    Posted by athens7676[/QUOTE]
    I love the phrase "walkingist bunch of walkers." 
    I don't know for sure, but Feller is probably amongst the top thirty pitchers all-time. You have a perfect right to place him any where you like. That is not sarcasm.

     
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    Don't get me wrong... Feller is one of the all time greats... I just am not,nor will I ever be, a guy who want a pitcher on the mound in a game 7 who has a tendency to walk a lot of guys. Of course you can make the argument (rightfully so) that both Feller and Ryan K'd so many guys that it nullified their walks. In a big game however, I will take the guy who doesn't give up the free passes. (And I will continue to wish I could throw the ball NEARLY as hard as Feller or Ryan lol ;0)
     
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    I just am not,nor will I ever be, a guy who want a pitcher on the mound in a game 7 who has a tendency to walk a lot of guys

    I doubt anyone cares who you want on the mound in a game 7, particularly when it is Tim Wastefield.  
     
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    I doubt anyone cares who you want on the mound in a game 7, particularly when it is Tim Wastefield.  

    Hey there Softlaw!!! Way to make a comment that has nothing to do with what is being discussed!!! I am sure that when your mom brings you a sandwhich later the crusts will be cut off, just how you like it!!
     
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    Softy clings to the idea that we lost because our team went 12-11 with our 7th starter (Wake) and 42-22 with our back-up catcher (V'Tek). It's all he has left beyond Theo bashing.
     
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    Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound

    In Response to Re: Catchers: A View from the Mound:
    [QUOTE]will you stop screaming in BOLD! You are annoying me. Write in normal font like regular people do - or do you need the attention?
    Posted by jader[/QUOTE]

    Using all CAPS IS "SCREAMING" not bold. I use bold because my eyesight is poor. I'd have twice the typos if I didn't use it. Plus, it's easier for others on this site with poor eyesight to read my posts. I'd have no problem with you just skipping over mine, if it bothers you that much.

     

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