CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

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    CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    I don't have time to elaborate. Something work-related has come up and I don't know when I'll have time in the next couple of days to elaborate in detail. 

    But I just read Chad Finn's piece and he stated many of the points I was thinking about Francona and the team.

    This was an organizational collapse and it should be the organization that works together to improve -- fixing their own flaws (yes, Francona has them, I never said he didn't) and players and front office and the way some things are done.

    It doesn't have to be a major overhaul and change -- the team did have the second-best record in baseball a month ago -- but there are things that need to be fixed, either tweeked or overhauled.

    Francona, like Finn said, has been the best manager in our lifetimes (to me, even better than Williams), and he should be part of the solution. Of the list of problems this team had in the collapse, he ranks down on the list.

    Well, I have to go.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    When your manager is unable to command enough respect from your players to prevent them from drinking in the dugout, backstabbing each other, and refusing to play or play hard for various reasons, it would seem unwise to continue that same regime.  Tweaking is what's needed when your team finishes a few games out of first - not when it implodes in the most inglorious regular season fashion in club history.

    This club need s a huge makeover. Let Papi, Wake, Tek, Paps, walk and save money/collect picks because our minor league seems tapped. Drew is gone, Dice will soon follow. Lowrie, Dmac, Albers should find new work. Im in the minority that thinks the pitching is worth salvaging IF all them are put on some sort of weight program. This may be a crazy first but club policy should require a weigh in every week. I know management was looking at Liverpool for conditioning but soccer players run and run and run - there is no secret to why you never see a fat pro soccer player.

    When you see ballplayers bloating up like whales, dogging it down the line, showing up their teammates, and frowning like they lost their dog ON THE FIELD, you can be sure it is 10x worse in private.  Roy you are the master of understatement and swatting back criticism of the Sox management team, but your post here is more about you trying to save face than what you think the Red Sox need to be winners.

    You were very wrong about this team as I was. The worst part is the manager had no control over his players. The one thing we all agreed on that Francona was great at was his demise. Why would you ever want to keep that going by "tweaking" the team?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

    Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    Little Theo blows up another chemistry set. Oops. Uncle John will buy him another one.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    Like Jim Mora saying "Playoffs......Playoffs!!" I say in the same vein, Tweaking....Tweaking!!

    Blow this organization up John Henry.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    In Response to Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT:
    When your manager is unable to command enough respect from your players to prevent them from drinking in the dugout, backstabbing each other, and refusing to play or play hard for various reasons, it would seem unwise to continue that same regime.  Tweaking is what's needed when your team finishes a few games out of first - not when it implodes in the most inglorious regular season fashion in club history. This club need s a huge makeover. Let Papi, Wake, Tek, Paps, walk and save money/collect picks because our minor league seems tapped. Drew is gone, Dice will soon follow. Lowrie, Dmac, Albers should find new work. Im in the minority that thinks the pitching is worth salvaging IF all them are put on some sort of weight program. This may be a crazy first but club policy should require a weigh in every week. I know management was looking at Liverpool for conditioning but soccer players run and run and run - there is no secret to why you never see a fat pro soccer player. When you see ballplayers bloating up like whales, dogging it down the line, showing up their teammates, and frowning like they lost their dog ON THE FIELD, you can be sure it is 10x worse in private.  Roy you are the master of understatement and swatting back criticism of the Sox management team, but your post here is more about you trying to save face than what you think the Red Sox need to be winners. You were very wrong about this team as I was. The worst part is the manager had no control over his players. The one thing we all agreed on that Francona was great at was his demise. Why would you ever want to keep that going by "tweaking" the team?
    Posted by georom4
    This is the problem with rumors. First it is a rumor that starting pitchers were drinking beer in the CLUBHOUSE before games and urban legend already has players cracking cold ones in the dugout. Wait a week and it will be guys drinking whisky in the field.

    The worst part was the lack of depth the organization had in starting pitching, that the FO thought they could get by with what they had at #5 without Dice K and counted on Buch coming back until it was too late to get re-inforcements.

    All this other BS did not prevent this team from having the best record in MLB from May-August. It was once the pitching staff was exposed that the low grade fever erupted into a full blown disease. That disease because of the size of the lead prevented the RS from making the playoffs but the team wasn't going to go far with that pitching staff.

    If the RS lose sight of what the source of the real problem was nothing will change. In that regard Finn is right. The team has a ton of talent. To use a metaphor, while the Rs need to cut the fat, they need be careful not to cut bone and muscle (radical turnover) or get a girdle (change field manager and staff) and think they have gotten the job done.

    It may well be time for Francona to move on. I think he may well want out of Boston, the market after awhile just has to get old. But bring back the same roster and thinking you fixed anything is folly.    


     
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    five..the problem with your analysis is that ignores the slow start in april (again) and the lack of conditioning/toughness that is directly attributed to the manager....what is Jon Henry supposed to think? I paid Lackey 80 million so that he can show up our players/manager as his belly, wallet, and head swells? How is that Theo's fault? If Francona put the smack down on that nonsense and trained his veterans properly, we clinch a playoff spot and the division 10 days ago. The manager cost us games - he needs to go.

    Francona made a huge blunder by not starting Aceves...Baseball 101 - nothing is more valuable than a starting pitcher...you think an ex catcher would know that. He let his sentamental feelings for Wake hurt the team and we played from behind for the better part of the last 6 weeks.  These are all things that fall under the realm of managing...and he failed, epically. He deserved the firing.
     
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    In Response to Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT:
    five..the problem with your analysis is that ignores the slow start in april (again) and the lack of conditioning/toughness that is directly attributed to the manager....what is Jon Henry supposed to think? I paid Lackey 80 million so that he can show up our players/manager as his belly, wallet, and head swells? How is that Theo's fault? If Francona put the smack down on that nonsense and trained his veterans properly, we clinch a playoff spot and the division 10 days ago. The manager cost us games - he needs to go. Francona made a huge blunder by not starting Aceves...Baseball 101 - nothing is more valuable than a starting pitcher...you think an ex catcher would know that. He let his sentamental feelings for Wake hurt the team and we played from behind for the better part of the last 6 weeks.  These are all things that fall under the realm of managing...and he failed, epically. He deserved the firing.
    Posted by georom4


    As someone already said, the problem w/ starting Aceves is that Aceves can't releive Aceves in the 6th.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    In Response to Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT:
    five..the problem with your analysis is that ignores the slow start in april (again) and the lack of conditioning/toughness that is directly attributed to the manager....what is Jon Henry supposed to think? I paid Lackey 80 million so that he can show up our players/manager as his belly, wallet, and head swells? How is that Theo's fault? If Francona put the smack down on that nonsense and trained his veterans properly, we clinch a playoff spot and the division 10 days ago. The manager cost us games - he needs to go. Francona made a huge blunder by not starting Aceves...Baseball 101 - nothing is more valuable than a starting pitcher...you think an ex catcher would know that. He let his sentamental feelings for Wake hurt the team and we played from behind for the better part of the last 6 weeks.  These are all things that fall under the realm of managing...and he failed, epically. He deserved the firing.
    Posted by georom4
    I never have bought that April theory FWIW. Go back and look at the game logs. Lot's LOB, and the early warnings of poor starting pitching and Bard's occasional command issues were at the heart of that start.

    The LOB come with this model. The NYY go through stretches of it too. But when you put a ton of guys on base, while you leave you'll have more LOB and stretches were it is stunning, but over 162 you score far more when you build a high OBP club.

    As for Lackey, that is all on Epstein and Henry who had to approve that contract level commitment. Lackey was the same guy in Anaheim, from the belly, to accountability to the faces. Epstein admitted as much yesterday.

    The Aceves theory another I don't buy. This team had 1 to 2 starters worth a darn in September. they had 3 relievers they could count on. Bard and Papelbon and Aceves. Everything in Aceves history tells us he would have been a 5-6 IP max starter. Who was relieving Aceves, let alone Wake, Miller, Weiland and/or Bedard?

    Now I am not saying that Francona made no errors in 2011 but the team he was given was flawed. Too left handed. Crawford was fool's gold. The depth behind the original starting 5 was awful and the FO waited too long to do anything about it because the team went through a stretch where they cloaked and they lost the bet that Buch would be back.

    The FO cost us more games. The team was flawed. For a FO that bragged it went through Crawford's garbage with PI before they signed him, they blew it.

    Again, I am not saying that it may not be time for Francona to move on. It was apparent by mid-September that he had lost his good humor with the this caustic nature of the market aside from everything else.

    But if you think for a minute that bringing back the same 25 guys would have resulted in a WS championship, I disagree.  In fact I will take it as far looking back on 2011 to say that a lot of other managers would not have gotten this team off of the mat after the 2-12 start or kept the issues now leaking out of the clubhouse in that clubhouse until the season was over.    

        


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    One of the dumbest moves ever--Sox fired the wrong guy. You want someone who brought the "spa" atmosphere to Sox and the Yellow Cabs nature of the team by constantly adding over-priced prima donnas like Lackey, Crawford, Drew, and then his 3-year drool over acquiring AGON, which certainly lends to the sense of entitlement that some Sox started to feel. Francona was hardly the problem on this team. Don't forget 1 ALCS and 1 ALDS appearance were taken from Francona's resume due to one reliever failing miserably after 2 outs and no one on in the 9th. Papelbon shuts the door, this conversation isn't even happening.
     
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     ***I paid Lackey 80 million so that he can show up our players/manager as his belly, wallet, and head swells? How is that Theo's fault?***

    HOW IN THE HELL CAN YOU LEAVE THEO OFF THE HOOK, AND TITO ON THE HOOK FOR JOHN LACKEY? UNBELIEVABLE. Theo signed the albatross for 5 years, that's how it is Theo's fault.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    if lackey was an effective pitcher before he came to Boston, and in fact defeated us in the playoffs handily, why was he so bad in Boston?????? Stop looking at all the contracts....lackey DISRESPECTED his teammates and coaches and the MANAGER blinked...that is a coaching issue.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    geo, i like you, but you are way wrong on this subject. Lackey disrespected teammates since 2002 with the Angels, that's not new news. He's always been demonstrative in his actions. He is a personal life nightmare and it did affect him in my opinion from a focus standpoint. With so many SPs hurt, or ineffective, Lackey took his regular rotation start. Theo added a 4-inn guy, a guy with a history of not getting deep into starts--Bedard, and he developed no one in the minors to even replace one of the forum's favorite whipping boys--Wakefield. How is Tito supposed to manage a team when his starters can't get through 5 innings in late September?
     
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    Again, any way you slice it, Papelbon had no runners on base, 2 outs, and had just struck a guy out on a split finger, then he proceeds to throw 10 straight fastballs to the GW hit guy....just like he did against the Angels in 2009, same game, same thing. Game is over and Papelbon went to pieces.
     
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    In Response to Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT:
    One of the dumbest moves ever--Sox fired the wrong guy. You want someone who brought the "spa" atmosphere to Sox and the Yellow Cabs nature of the team by constantly adding over-priced prima donnas like Lackey, Crawford, Drew, and then his 3-year drool over acquiring AGON, which certainly lends to the sense of entitlement that some Sox started to feel. Francona was hardly the problem on this team. Don't forget 1 ALCS and 1 ALDS appearance were taken from Francona's resume due to one reliever failing miserably after 2 outs and no one on in the 9th. Papelbon shuts the door, this conversation isn't even happening.
    Posted by dannycater
    You aren't pssibly talking about the 2009 blown save are you? That would have avoided a sweep but the Angels out classed the RS in 2009. And to narrow down the 2011 season to the 9th inning of game 162 is crazy. Papelbon just ram out of gas Wednesday night, they had no choice but to pitch him into the ground but they did.

    If that is the only reasons for this team coming under so much scrutiny, so be it IMO. Good for Pap in that case. The issues here were way deeper.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

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    In Response to Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT:
    Again, any way you slice it, Papelbon had no runners on base, 2 outs, and had just struck a guy out on a split finger, then he proceeds to throw 10 straight fastballs to the GW hit guy....just like he did against the Angels in 2009, same game, same thing. Game is over and Papelbon went to pieces.
    Posted by dannycater


    danny - i enjoy your posts but i think you are way wrong (i trumped you mere wrong) 

    Lackey is actually one of the players i would keep - in fact i believe every starter should stay and be required to lose 20 pounds before the first game next year..weigh them now and tell them to get it together. I would let Papi/wake/tek walk to bring younger, quicker players who can play the field as well as hit run the bases....i keep marco as well...he is clutch/gamer (when awake on the basepaths)

    Im serious when i say this, a better conditioned red sox team would have won this division by 3 games this year...

    as far Paplebon, i just read another poster saying the obvious, why didnt francona come out to the mound when he started to struggle - if not to replace him to get him refocused.....this is an excellent observation
     
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    Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    five, he is the team's closer. I want him re-signed. I think he is one of the best ever. And he still blew 2 games that directly affected the team's ability to 
    1. make a playoff round. 2. advance to another playoff round. . . 2 outs, no one on. It's on him.
     
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    In Response to Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT:
    In Response to Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT : As someone already said, the problem w/ starting Aceves is that Aceves can't releive Aceves in the 6th.
    Posted by Roadrunner9234


    A great 6th inning pitcher does no good if you are already up or down by 5 runs in the 6th inning and with the way the Sox starters were going and the Sox offense being sporadically great, that was more likely the case than not.....look at all of Aceves appearances and tell me where the game score dictated that annother even worse reliever wouldnt have been able to accomplish what Aceves did, which was either get us to the 8th with the lead or keep us in the game till the 8th, for a team that came back after the 7th twice all year. The look at all the starts our number 5 made where Aceves might have made a difference.....not even close....he would have made a much bigger impact as a starter.
     
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    In Response to Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT:
    five, he is the team's closer. I want him re-signed. I think he is one of the best ever. And he still blew 2 games that directly affected the team's ability to  1. make a playoff round. 2. advance to another playoff round. . . 2 outs, no one on. It's on him.
    Posted by dannycater


    I have no gripes about Paplebon this year - he came to camp totally jacked and motivated and pitched his azz off...he pitched too many innings the last week...having said that I dont think i could justify signing him for 15 million with Bard/aceves there to take his place...money could simply be better spent elsewhere...but if they did resign him i wouldnt complain - he deserves it
     
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    Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    All of the other stuff that is coming out--let me bring you back to 2004 for a second. All the stuff about The Idiots and the "camaraderie"...if Bill Mueller doesn't single up the middle off the best closer in MLB history--that team would have been crucified for dysfunction. There were just as many issues on the team's winning season as there were when they lost. You are buying into the Sox PR machine. Tito had problems with the '04 squad, problems containing egos, and problems with divas--the Sox won. All is well. Sox lose--well there has to be this problem with the clubhouse, and that problem with the off field stuff. Enough. On the field, where it counts--Team has 3-2 lead in the 9th...Closer is breezing after 2 Ks...Sox win....no, Sox lost. Two minutes later, Longoria goes long ball. Please enough with the over-analyzing of WHY DID THE SOX LOSE....They lost because they couldn't hang on to a 3-2 lead with their closer breezing after 2 outs and no one on against a far inferior team. Otherwise, again, none of this Fire this guy, this team is dysfunctional comes out.
     
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    In Response to Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT:
    In Response to Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT : danny - i enjoy your posts but i think you are way wrong (i trumped you mere wrong)  Lackey is actually one of the players i would keep - in fact i believe every starter should stay and be required to lose 20 pounds before the first game next year..weigh them now and tell them to get it together. I would let Papi/wake/tek walk to bring younger, quicker players who can play the field as well as hit run the bases....i keep marco as well...he is clutch/gamer (when awake on the basepaths) Im serious when i say this, a better conditioned red sox team would have won this division by 3 games this year... as far Paplebon, i just read another poster saying the obvious, why didnt francona come out to the mound when he started to struggle - if not to replace him to get him refocused.....this is an excellent observation
    Posted by georom4
    They'll keep Lackey but only because of the contract. If you graph his WHIP, BABIP, ERA he was in decline in Anaheim. The post season in 2009 was not reflective of his trajectory. It is all on his stat sheet if you look at it. 

    He was the same guy as far as the eyes, the showing up teammates and the manager when he came to get him in Anaheim. Like Tito, Scocia had no issue with the stare of death when he came to get the ball. But those traits were always there and Iron Mike is a hardazz.

    As for Papelbon on Wednesday. If I remember right in hindsight he over powered the first two hitters, gave up a pair of doubles, one an opposite field hug the line hit, one ball crushed to the gap and then Crawford did not make the play aon the dunker to LF. And if you were going to pull him Geo, who are you bringing in?

     
     
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    Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    In Response to Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT:
    All of the other stuff that is coming out--let me bring you back to 2004 for a second. All the stuff about The Idiots and the "camaraderie"...if Bill Mueller doesn't single up the middle off the best closer in MLB history--that team would have been crucified for dysfunction. There were just as many issues on the team's winning season as there were when they lost. You are buying into the Sox PR machine. Tito had problems with the '04 squad, problems containing egos, and problems with divas--the Sox won. All is well. Sox lose--well there has to be this problem with the clubhouse, and that problem with the off field stuff. Enough. On the field, where it counts--Team has 3-2 lead in the 9th...Closer is breezing after 2 Ks...Sox win....no, Sox lost. Two minutes later, Longoria goes long ball. Please enough with the over-analyzing of WHY DID THE SOX LOSE....They lost because they couldn't hang on to a 3-2 lead with their closer breezing after 2 outs and no one on against a far inferior team. Otherwise, again, none of this Fire this guy, this team is dysfunctional comes out.
    Posted by dannycater
    I get where you are coming from and in principle you are right.

    But you are taking it to the opposite extreme. It wasn't that inning. This fire storm would have been delayed by a day because they probably get their hats handed to them in Tampa with lackey starting and no Aceves, Bard or Papelbon available.

    It was a starting pitching staff in disarray come Septeber that did this team in. 
     
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    Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    In Response to Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT:
    In Response to Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT : You aren't pssibly talking about the 2009 blown save are you? That would have avoided a sweep but the Angels out classed the RS in 2009. And to narrow down the 2011 season to the 9th inning of game 162 is crazy. Papelbon just ram out of gas Wednesday night, they had no choice but to pitch him into the ground but they did. If that is the only reasons for this team coming under so much scrutiny, so be it IMO. Good for Pap in that case. The issues here were way deeper.
    Posted by fivekatz

     Exactly  Papelbon ran out of gas because he threw so hard and so many pitches the night before and that happened because they rest of the pitching staff allowed the Os enough runs to keep it a close game.  The Sox scored 8 runs on Tuesday and that's usually enough, no? Also, in game 162, Papelbon only had a one run cushion when the offense failed to produce in the 8th and 9th innings due to poor baserunning, impatience at the plate, etc.  It's a team sport and all the little things add up, and all the little things are that which the manager is held accountable, especially with a team loaded with that much talent.  
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mchampion. Show Mchampion's posts

    Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    Tito needed to go...bottom line.   He was great for a while managing egos but this team needed discipline and direction.   Tito couldn't do that.  Someitme the manger has to stay on top of things and change to get things done.  Tito couldn't.
     
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    Tinkering isn't enough, the club needs a total rebuild, personnel and culture
     
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    Re: CHAD FINN IS 100 PERCENT CORRECT

    Papelbon's pitch selection was juvenile. If anything he ought to learn from the past. Again, all in all with comparison to other closers, I'll take him over most anyone. I could care less about 15 mil or not, that's chump change for this organization, they have proven that they can overspend on the most meager of over-rated stars. I want the guy back regardless. Hell, the pen was exposed for having no one really reliable. Great closers aren't easy to sustain over a long period--Papelbon has sustainability. As for Lackey, I'm so tired of this guy being albatrossed to the Sox that I would pray Theo and his agent work out a settlement to end his Sox run...same with that cancer Crawford. What a joke those 2 ended up being--they were as responsible for the collapse as anyone.

     
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