Cherington's achiles heel

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    because that was the bet and i lost it...he wasnt gone by ST...but i said he would be traded and he was in 2012...are you going to bet the sox finish over .500 in 2013?

    I'm in.  Are you in?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    Allowing Paps to walk was a no brainer, but you are right, it was the correct move. And we got Webster and DLR in August. This offseason has been devoid of significant improvements, and its six months long. Yes, there are other ways we could have planned for 2015. Trading Ellsbury or one of our catchers or one of our minor league position players in return for a pitcher with promise would have made us better in 2015 in terms of being more competitive for a ring.

    Two problems with your two solutions

    1-Trading Ellsbury-What would we get today?  What will we get when he walks?  My guess is that it would not be significantly different.

    2-We don't have catchers to trade.  We have one catcher to trade.  What do you think Salty would fetch?

    You are suggesting trading two pieces that I don't think will make us much different than what we'll get in another year.  Meanwhile, we can still compete this year with them.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    In response to eidlog's comment:

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    It is a shame.

     

    I mean, all he has to do is fill out the right forms and get a tracking number, and then wait for the top of the rotation starter to be delivered to his doorstep...

     



    Free agency/trades

     

     



    I agree we need a TOR.

     

    But you're not really answering the question.  Who are the FAs he should've acquired this year? One-time AS Greinke?

     




     

    There was no good TOR SP available this year. It was never about THIS year. There was no practical way for Cherington to make us a team that could compete for a ring in 2013. This is about 2015. Since the season ended what has our illustrious GM done to IMPROVE the team for 2015?

     



    There are two ways to get better in 2015.

     

    1-To draft talent.  He allowed Paps to walk last year and picked up extra picks.

    2-By trading for minor leaguers, which he did by acquiring Webster and DLR.

    That's all there is to it.  Are there other ways to get better in 2015 that I am unaware of?

     



    Allowing Paps to walk was a no brainer, but you are right, it was the correct move. And we got Webster and DLR in August. This offseason has been devoid of significant improvements, and its six months long. Yes, there are other ways we could have planned for 2015. Trading Ellsbury or one of our catchers or one of our minor league position players in return for a pitcher with promise would have made us better in 2015 in terms of being more competitive for a ring.

     




    Trading Ellsbury this winter would have been selling extremely low. Better to hope he's healthy this year and trade him at the deadline if Bradley is forcing his way onto the big league roster. I am surprised we didn't move Salty or Lavarnaway and a couple of relievers for prospects this winter though.

     
  4. This post has been removed.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Allowing Paps to walk was a no brainer, but you are right, it was the correct move. And we got Webster and DLR in August. This offseason has been devoid of significant improvements, and its six months long. Yes, there are other ways we could have planned for 2015. Trading Ellsbury or one of our catchers or one of our minor league position players in return for a pitcher with promise would have made us better in 2015 in terms of being more competitive for a ring.

    Two problems with your two solutions

    1-Trading Ellsbury-What would we get today?  What will we get when he walks?  My guess is that it would not be significantly different.

    2-We don't have catchers to trade.  We have one catcher to trade.  What do you think Salty would fetch?

    You are suggesting trading two pieces that I don't think will make us much different than what we'll get in another year.  Meanwhile, we can still compete this year with them.



    Ellsbury could have been packaged with either Salty or some minor league position player prospects to bring us a good pitching prospect. The concept is that anyone who is not in the plans for 2015 is fair game to be traded. You don't have to trade everyone; we do need to field a team this year, but there should be no pretending this is a team that will contend for a ring. I just don't see any significant moves made by our GM this winter at all.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    In response to carnie's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    In response to eidlog's comment:

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    It is a shame.

     

    I mean, all he has to do is fill out the right forms and get a tracking number, and then wait for the top of the rotation starter to be delivered to his doorstep...

     



    Free agency/trades

     

     



    I agree we need a TOR.

     

    But you're not really answering the question.  Who are the FAs he should've acquired this year? One-time AS Greinke?

     




     

    There was no good TOR SP available this year. It was never about THIS year. There was no practical way for Cherington to make us a team that could compete for a ring in 2013. This is about 2015. Since the season ended what has our illustrious GM done to IMPROVE the team for 2015?

     



    There are two ways to get better in 2015.

     

    1-To draft talent.  He allowed Paps to walk last year and picked up extra picks.

    2-By trading for minor leaguers, which he did by acquiring Webster and DLR.

    That's all there is to it.  Are there other ways to get better in 2015 that I am unaware of?

     



    Allowing Paps to walk was a no brainer, but you are right, it was the correct move. And we got Webster and DLR in August. This offseason has been devoid of significant improvements, and its six months long. Yes, there are other ways we could have planned for 2015. Trading Ellsbury or one of our catchers or one of our minor league position players in return for a pitcher with promise would have made us better in 2015 in terms of being more competitive for a ring.

     

     




    Trading Ellsbury this winter would have been selling extremely low. Better to hope he's healthy this year and trade him at the deadline if Bradley is forcing his way onto the big league roster. I am surprised we didn't move Salty or Lavarnaway and a couple of relievers for prospects this winter though.

     




    I dont think either Salty or Lav wouldve brought back anything at all.

    I also think that Ben wanted to evaluate some prospects before just throwing them in a trade. Some of them are at the point of turning the corner and possibly becoming a legit prospect or not. We have some potential stud MLB players on the farm and I think 2013 is a year in which some of them will make their presence known.

    Heres an example. Garrin Cecchini has the potential to be a very good MLB ballplayer. Hes at the point to where his stock could go way up this year, thus giving us a better return. Obviously this could go the other way, but from what weve seen it he has a better chance than not.

    I dont agree with trading guys like Salty or Ellsbury for the "best offer" that doesnt make us better this year or in 2015.

    I was hoping for a couple more moves this offseason myself carnie, but I also trust baseball ops and all the info they have that they would have made a move if it made sense for 2013 AND beyond.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to carnie's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    In response to eidlog's comment:

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    It is a shame.

     

    I mean, all he has to do is fill out the right forms and get a tracking number, and then wait for the top of the rotation starter to be delivered to his doorstep...

     



    Free agency/trades

     

     



    I agree we need a TOR.

     

    But you're not really answering the question.  Who are the FAs he should've acquired this year? One-time AS Greinke?

     




     

    There was no good TOR SP available this year. It was never about THIS year. There was no practical way for Cherington to make us a team that could compete for a ring in 2013. This is about 2015. Since the season ended what has our illustrious GM done to IMPROVE the team for 2015?

     



    There are two ways to get better in 2015.

     

    1-To draft talent.  He allowed Paps to walk last year and picked up extra picks.

    2-By trading for minor leaguers, which he did by acquiring Webster and DLR.

    That's all there is to it.  Are there other ways to get better in 2015 that I am unaware of?

     



    Allowing Paps to walk was a no brainer, but you are right, it was the correct move. And we got Webster and DLR in August. This offseason has been devoid of significant improvements, and its six months long. Yes, there are other ways we could have planned for 2015. Trading Ellsbury or one of our catchers or one of our minor league position players in return for a pitcher with promise would have made us better in 2015 in terms of being more competitive for a ring.

     

     




    Trading Ellsbury this winter would have been selling extremely low. Better to hope he's healthy this year and trade him at the deadline if Bradley is forcing his way onto the big league roster. I am surprised we didn't move Salty or Lavarnaway and a couple of relievers for prospects this winter though.

     

     




    I dont think either Salty or Lav wouldve brought back anything at all.

     

    I also think that Ben wanted to evaluate some prospects before just throwing them in a trade. Some of them are at the point of turning the corner and possibly becoming a legit prospect or not. We have some potential stud MLB players on the farm and I think 2013 is a year in which some of them will make their presence known.

    Heres an example. Garrin Cecchini has the potential to be a very good MLB ballplayer. Hes at the point to where his stock could go way up this year, thus giving us a better return. Obviously this could go the other way, but from what weve seen it he has a better chance than not.

    I dont agree with trading guys like Salty or Ellsbury for the "best offer" that doesnt make us better this year or in 2015.

    I was hoping for a couple more moves this offseason myself carnie, but I also trust baseball ops and all the info they have that they would have made a move if it made sense for 2013 AND beyond.




    I think we're in 100% agreement southpaw. At this point I think we're much better off holding the cards we have and seeing how it plays out over the first half. If we fall out of contention there are much more likely to be teams willing to overpay at the deadline because they think they're one reliever or one position player away from going deep into the playoffs. And if we end up keeping Ellsbury all year and not resigning him well, Jackie Bradley Jr. was a compensation pick. As was Buchholz, Jed Lowrie, Bryce Brentz and Henry Owens.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    And Pedro seems to think we might have the ace for our pitching staff already in house. Something I said at the time of the Dodgers' trade when softy and others were calling these guys "farm scraps".

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    In response to carnie's comment:

    In response to eidlog's comment:

     

    Lester: 9-14, 1.383, 4.82
    Buchholz: 11-8, 1.326, 4.56

    Those stats represent what the duo have accomplished since September, 2011.

    No. 3 man, Ryan  Dempster pitched worse than Lester and Buchholz in the second half of 2012, compiling a 5.09 ERA and 1.453 WHIP for the Rangers.

     

    Dempster has a lifetime ERA of 5.27 versus Toronto and 7.62 (with an 0-4 record) against the Yankees.

     

    Doubront slipped badly (1-5, 6.04 ERA) in August-September.

     

    And Jon Lackey -he has some of the worst ERA/WHIP numbers for a 150-Inning starter  6.41/1.619 in MLB history.

     




    You're still avoiding the question. What TOTR FA starter should Ben have acquired this winter? What ace should he have traded for, or failing that what ace starter was actually available?

     




    this is what i call BILL-806 syndrome..... You whine and cry and demand a trade but don't specify ANY targets.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    In response to eidlog's comment:

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    It is a shame.

     

    I mean, all he has to do is fill out the right forms and get a tracking number, and then wait for the top of the rotation starter to be delivered to his doorstep...

     



    Free agency/trades

     

     




     

    If Rubby De Le Rosa emerges as a TOR starter, will Cherington have fulfiulled his obligtion to you?

     

    Free agency is a horrible way to get anything important.  The disadvantages outweigh the shrt term goals.  Free agency is not for building, it is for supplementing. 

     

    No points awarded...

     




    While in general I agree with you, especially regarding pitching, the Yankees have done quite well in this regard, no? A-Rod, Swisher (I believe), Martin, Ibanez, Nix, Youkilis, Hafner, Kuroda (heck, their entire bench each season, almost).

     

    If I remember right they got Teixeira, Burnett, and Sabathia in one off-season.  Though Burnett was never great, Sabathia and Teixeira have gone on to anchor the team in the rotation and offense, respectively.  Soriano saved their bullpen's behind last season, Aardsma may save it this season. 

    So building a successful team on the back of FA signings CAN be done; it just has to be done smartly and agressively.  Which does mean overpaying, which is why I am generally against the idea from a business standpoint.  But to write it off as useless or nonsense is ignoring facts.



    You sre provinh my point.

     

    Swisher wss a trsde not a FA. ARod too.

     

    Most of the players you named were the short term stopgaps I mentioned.

     

    The others - Teixeira and Sabathia - were short term successes with long term concerns. A-Rod joined this group with his extension...

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    asking RDLR to be a TOR starter in 2013 is unrealistic...i have high hopes for all these sox youngsters but lets get to the .500 spot this year and get them acclimated...2014 & 2015 will be much better

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from gr82bme. Show gr82bme's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to gr82bme's comment:

     

    Agree with those saying, "who could you get?"  I mean King Felix just signed a mega-contract, but what else was out there?  Dickey?  Hey, I'm all for a starting rotation of in-their-primes Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Chrisy Matthewson, Lefty Grove, and Sandy Kofax - with a relief core of Rollie Fingers, Sparky Lyle, Goose Gossage, Dan Quissenberry, with Mo Rivera as our closer - thing is, there's nothing out there that even remotly resembles this august group.


    And to be honest, I don't think King Felix as our TOR guy would help too appreciably.  Unless we get career years out of 3 or 4 regulars, we won't be sniffing at the playoffs - but, that's why they play the games.  GO SOX!

     



    Dickey won rhe Cy Young LAST YEAR!!!

     

     

    He is easily among the 10 best SP inMLB.

     

    The drawback was that he would have cost Bogaerts and Bradley. ..ad





    I agree, but remember Dickey wasn't a FA - he signed an extension when traded to the Jays.  And like you said, the most would have been dear.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    In response to carnie's comment:

     

    And Pedro seems to think we might have the ace for our pitching staff already in house. Something I said at the time of the Dodgers' trade when softy and others were calling these guys "farm scraps".

     




    RDLR looked really good today. Good 1st impression.

     

    I know thew Sox will have him on an innings limit this year, but I would bet that we will see him sometime later this year depending on his innings pitched.

     
  14. This post has been removed.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    You sound like the stooge, Moonshwemp.

    If you are going to whine about not having a "top of the rotation starter", then please name him and provide the exact details as to how you would acquire him.

     




    for once, something we can both agree on.

    although, your buddy BILL-806 is the king of this. weird how you don't get on his case over it.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from eidlog. Show eidlog's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    Only 16 percent of all the money spent has gone to improve the team’s greatest weakness: the starting rotation.

    Red Sox starters were 48-72 with a 5.19 earned run average last season, the third-worst ERA in the American League. Opponents hit 135 home runs against the Sox and had a .790 OPS.

    Jon Lester, Clay Buchholz, and Felix Doubront — return as the core of the rotation. Lester had a 4.82 ERA, Buis 10-17 with a 4.90 ERA in 39 starts dating to Sept. 1, 2011. In his last 237 innings, Lester has allowed 251 hits and struck out only 198.chholz a 4.56, and Doubront a 4.86.

    Lester is 10-17 with a 4.90 ERA in 39 starts dating to Sept. 1, 2011. In his last 237 innings, Lester has allowed 251 hits and struck out only 198.

    Dempster has a 4.63 ERA in 50 interleague appearances. He is 4-8 with a 4.91 ERA in 18 career appearances against teams from the AL East — including 0-4 with a 7.62 ERA in five career starts against the Yankees.

     

     

     

     

     
  17. This post has been removed.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to carnie's comment:

     

    In response to eidlog's comment:

     

    Lester: 9-14, 1.383, 4.82
    Buchholz: 11-8, 1.326, 4.56

    Those stats represent what the duo have accomplished since September, 2011.

    No. 3 man, Ryan  Dempster pitched worse than Lester and Buchholz in the second half of 2012, compiling a 5.09 ERA and 1.453 WHIP for the Rangers.

     

    Dempster has a lifetime ERA of 5.27 versus Toronto and 7.62 (with an 0-4 record) against the Yankees.

     

    Doubront slipped badly (1-5, 6.04 ERA) in August-September.

     

    And Jon Lackey -he has some of the worst ERA/WHIP numbers for a 150-Inning starter  6.41/1.619 in MLB history.

     




    You're still avoiding the question. What TOTR FA starter should Ben have acquired this winter? What ace should he have traded for, or failing that what ace starter was actually available?

     

     




    this is what i call BILL-806 syndrome..... You whine and cry and demand a trade but don't specify ANY targets.

     

    As DAD would say......... "SON, looks like another compliment"  !!!!


     
  19. This post has been removed.

     
  20. This post has been removed.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    In response to eidlog's comment:

    Only 16 percent of all the money spent has gone to improve the team’s greatest weakness: the starting rotation.

    Red Sox starters were 48-72 with a 5.19 earned run average last season, the third-worst ERA in the American League. Opponents hit 135 home runs against the Sox and had a .790 OPS.

    Jon Lester, Clay Buchholz, and Felix Doubront — return as the core of the rotation. Lester had a 4.82 ERA, Buis 10-17 with a 4.90 ERA in 39 starts dating to Sept. 1, 2011. In his last 237 innings, Lester has allowed 251 hits and struck out only 198.chholz a 4.56, and Doubront a 4.86.

    Lester is 10-17 with a 4.90 ERA in 39 starts dating to Sept. 1, 2011. In his last 237 innings, Lester has allowed 251 hits and struck out only 198.

    Dempster has a 4.63 ERA in 50 interleague appearances. He is 4-8 with a 4.91 ERA in 18 career appearances against teams from the AL East — including 0-4 with a 7.62 ERA in five career starts against the Yankees.

     

     

     

     



    Okay, today's exercise is to cherry-pick stats?

     

    • Lester was #10 SP in all of BB 2010-2012.
    • Bucholz Had the #4 ERA for SPs with at least 250 IP for 2010-2011
    • Dempster had a 4.01 ERA in his last 9 starts after the trade.
    • Doubront had a 3.08 in has last 4 starts.
    • Lackey had a 4.40 in his one healthy season with us.

    Instead of cherry-picking stats, why not post what their projections are from say, an expert like Bill James?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    Allowing Paps to walk was a no brainer, but you are right, it was the correct move. And we got Webster and DLR in August. This offseason has been devoid of significant improvements, and its six months long. Yes, there are other ways we could have planned for 2015. Trading Ellsbury or one of our catchers or one of our minor league position players in return for a pitcher with promise would have made us better in 2015 in terms of being more competitive for a ring.

    Two problems with your two solutions

    1-Trading Ellsbury-What would we get today?  What will we get when he walks?  My guess is that it would not be significantly different.

    2-We don't have catchers to trade.  We have one catcher to trade.  What do you think Salty would fetch?

    You are suggesting trading two pieces that I don't think will make us much different than what we'll get in another year.  Meanwhile, we can still compete this year with them.

     



    Ellsbury could have been packaged with either Salty or some minor league position player prospects to bring us a good pitching prospect. The concept is that anyone who is not in the plans for 2015 is fair game to be traded. You don't have to trade everyone; we do need to field a team this year, but there should be no pretending this is a team that will contend for a ring. I just don't see any significant moves made by our GM this winter at all.

     



    You really haven't gotten past the previous question.  You basically want to dump the 2013 season in favor of getting a marginally better prospect than we would get by hanging onto Ellsbury.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    because that was the bet and i lost it...he wasnt gone by ST...but i said he would be traded and he was in 2012...are you going to bet the sox finish over .500 in 2013?

    I'm in.  Are you in?



    Geo, are you in?

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Cherington's achiles heel

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    Allowing Paps to walk was a no brainer, but you are right, it was the correct move. And we got Webster and DLR in August. This offseason has been devoid of significant improvements, and its six months long. Yes, there are other ways we could have planned for 2015. Trading Ellsbury or one of our catchers or one of our minor league position players in return for a pitcher with promise would have made us better in 2015 in terms of being more competitive for a ring.

    Two problems with your two solutions

    1-Trading Ellsbury-What would we get today?  What will we get when he walks?  My guess is that it would not be significantly different.

    2-We don't have catchers to trade.  We have one catcher to trade.  What do you think Salty would fetch?

    You are suggesting trading two pieces that I don't think will make us much different than what we'll get in another year.  Meanwhile, we can still compete this year with them.

     



    Ellsbury could have been packaged with either Salty or some minor league position player prospects to bring us a good pitching prospect. The concept is that anyone who is not in the plans for 2015 is fair game to be traded. You don't have to trade everyone; we do need to field a team this year, but there should be no pretending this is a team that will contend for a ring. I just don't see any significant moves made by our GM this winter at all.

     

     



    You really haven't gotten past the previous question.  You basically want to dump the 2013 season in favor of getting a marginally better prospect than we would get by hanging onto Ellsbury.

     



    i agree, not to mention if we trade him that virtually kills any chance of resigning him in the offseason...

     
  25. This post has been removed.

     

Share