Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to smuldy84's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [/QUOTE]



    Yes, it speaks volumes fred. That hes not willing to part with solid prospects and give up on the future for an oft injured pitcher for 1 year and the bloated contract of the selfish Jose Reyes for 5/95. The same skillset of Crawford, with an injury history making north of 20M. Im glad your not our GM with your constant negative and unrealistic attitude. Ive been respectful, but your just like some on here that are just trying to get under others skin.

    My guess is you became a Sox fan during 2004. Am I right?

    [/QUOTE]


    Reyes is NOT Crawford. Other than speed Reyes has never had an atrocius year OBP wise, doesn't strike out much, played in New York just fine, bats leadoff, switch hitter, is 2 years younger and plays a premium defense at a position where power isn't needed. Crawford is older hated batting leadoff played a defensive position (especially at Fenway) where his speed provided less benefit than his weak arm took and where 20+ home run power is ABSOLUTELY essential. Totally different cases.

    [/QUOTE]


    Same skillset. meaning speed, not a lot of power. reyes is better, but that wasnt my point. They both have a history of injuries too. You dont pay north of 20M per for guys like reyes and CC. Plain and simple.

    [/QUOTE]

    Reyes is worth every penny of 20M / yr if he is healthy.  But that is a large if.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    Reyes is the best all-around SS in the game (if healthy). 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to rightymclefty's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    It's not a chicken little thing.

    Look at the targets thus far. Hunter (gone) Kuroda, Laroche, and Napoli. All in their mid to late 30's, in addition to Papi's signing.

    Is Ben afraid to make trades? Does he think every prospect is a future all star?

    Are there no OF SS or 1B anywhere available in trades? Is he only comfortable in the free agent market, because he won't have to give up anyone?

    The LA deal was Luccino's baby. Nothing in Cherington's track record gives fans confidencethat any real rebuilding will take place for next season, as promised by ownership.

    [/QUOTE]


    Napoli is 31.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from joyceand. Show joyceand's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to kmr2318's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Cherington is awful......

    Going to the Blue Jays: Reyes, Buehrle, Johnson and catcher John Buck. Coming back to the Marlins: shortstop Yunel Escobar, starter Henderson Alvarez and more players to be confirmed.

    At least the Red Sox are exploring Jason Bay as an option.   PAAALEASE.

    Sox should have cleaned house with this lightweight. 

    [/QUOTE]
    I think you've hit the nail on the head about Cherington.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to Drewski5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Reyes is the best all-around SS in the game (if healthy). 

    [/QUOTE]

    Tulo

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to Drewski5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
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    In response to smuldy84's comment:
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    [/QUOTE]



    Yes, it speaks volumes fred. That hes not willing to part with solid prospects and give up on the future for an oft injured pitcher for 1 year and the bloated contract of the selfish Jose Reyes for 5/95. The same skillset of Crawford, with an injury history making north of 20M. Im glad your not our GM with your constant negative and unrealistic attitude. Ive been respectful, but your just like some on here that are just trying to get under others skin.

    My guess is you became a Sox fan during 2004. Am I right?

    [/QUOTE]


    Reyes is NOT Crawford. Other than speed Reyes has never had an atrocius year OBP wise, doesn't strike out much, played in New York just fine, bats leadoff, switch hitter, is 2 years younger and plays a premium defense at a position where power isn't needed. Crawford is older hated batting leadoff played a defensive position (especially at Fenway) where his speed provided less benefit than his weak arm took and where 20+ home run power is ABSOLUTELY essential. Totally different cases.

    [/QUOTE]


    Same skillset. meaning speed, not a lot of power. reyes is better, but that wasnt my point. They both have a history of injuries too. You dont pay north of 20M per for guys like reyes and CC. Plain and simple.

    [/QUOTE]

    Reyes is worth every penny of 20M / yr if he is healthy.  But that is a large if.

    [/QUOTE]

    He has to do this for 5 years.  Given his history, I have to presume that he will decline.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to michaelsjr's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to bigdog1's comment:


    It's early let's not overreact.  If Ben would traded the propects for this lot of over paid player's most of the poster's on this site would complaining how bad of job Ben did.  Now you want to complain that he did not make this deal.  We need to be patient and wait.  We need to get younger not medcore.   (mediocre)



    Well said.   Couldn't agree more.  I'm neither a Ben cheerleader nor a detractor -  he hasn't proven himself one way or the other yet - but don't think Jays outmaneuvered him with this deal.

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't like it at all for the BJs.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to Drewski5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Reyes is the best all-around SS in the game (if healthy). 

    [/QUOTE]


    I would have a hard time giving 22M in 2015-17 to him or anyone who doesnt smash 30 Hr and drive in 120RBI with a .300avg and .500 SLG and close to a ..380-400 OBP.

    Hes one heck of a talent, no arguing that Drew. Hes also been injured a lot, as you mentioned.

    I view 20+M a year player as pure power guys like Miggy, Prince, Manny, etc., Guys who hit for average and power. not Jose Reyes.

    We agree Reyes is a great asset when healthy, but just differ on how we view the value of a guy with his skill set.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to Soxdog67's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
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    Cherington can screw up this winter as he did last winter and most likely will do next winter and his acoyltes will still sing his praises.  The fact is he is totally inept and not big enough for the job he has.  He is beyond pathetic.  That he couldn't have gone to the Marlins and made a bid for maybe Johnson or Reyes speaks volumes just how pathetic this guy is.  In an accompaning articles on Boston.Com there is a list of 14 players the Red Sox say they are interested in.  I say he won't get even one of them.  That's how worthless Cherington is.

     [/QUOTE]

    fred, for years you have posted critically of Sox FO, so I honestly think that nothing will ever please you. In addition, you want all Sox player moves completed immediately and the Sox involved in all player acquisitions...so regarding Cherington as GM:

    1. 2012 was all about the ballpark and it's 100th anniversary...the product on the field took a back seat...this was a mandate that came down from ownership...and was out of Cherington's control...that explains the lack of player acquisitions and the hiring of a lame duck manager the day he started...we all knew Bobby V was an interim manager the day he signed.
    2. He was having discussions with the Marlins for a couple of their players but the Blue Jays were able to offer young MAJOR LEAGUE players AND prospects, something the Sox do not have right now. Just because the Sox offer players in a trade and their are discussions, the other team makes a deal thats best for them. PERIOD.
    3. The hot stove season is young...I'm feeling deja vu saying this to you...I believe we've gone through this almost every offseason...if not here, on Sawxheads back in the day.

    To all the Chicken Little's out there...please take a chill pill and a deep breath and let the offseason play itself out...but be advised that the Red Sox will NOT be acquiring every free agent and player acquired this offseason.

    If February comes and the FO missed the boat on improving the team, then go ahead and rip at the Sox GM and ownership.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    SoxDog, five will get you ten that if Cherington blows this off season with ineptitude many of you will still be in denial and keep supporting him.  Here's one for you.  Let's assume the Sox finally realize what a dud this guy is and fire him.....do you seriosly think Cherington will ever get another GM job?  I thought so.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Soxdog67's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Cherington can screw up this winter as he did last winter and most likely will do next winter and his acoyltes will still sing his praises.  The fact is he is totally inept and not big enough for the job he has.  He is beyond pathetic.  That he couldn't have gone to the Marlins and made a bid for maybe Johnson or Reyes speaks volumes just how pathetic this guy is.  In an accompaning articles on Boston.Com there is a list of 14 players the Red Sox say they are interested in.  I say he won't get even one of them.  That's how worthless Cherington is.

     [/QUOTE]

    fred, for years you have posted critically of Sox FO, so I honestly think that nothing will ever please you. In addition, you want all Sox player moves completed immediately and the Sox involved in all player acquisitions...so regarding Cherington as GM:

    1. 2012 was all about the ballpark and it's 100th anniversary...the product on the field took a back seat...this was a mandate that came down from ownership...and was out of Cherington's control...that explains the lack of player acquisitions and the hiring of a lame duck manager the day he started...we all knew Bobby V was an interim manager the day he signed.
    2. He was having discussions with the Marlins for a couple of their players but the Blue Jays were able to offer young MAJOR LEAGUE players AND prospects, something the Sox do not have right now. Just because the Sox offer players in a trade and their are discussions, the other team makes a deal thats best for them. PERIOD.
    3. The hot stove season is young...I'm feeling deja vu saying this to you...I believe we've gone through this almost every offseason...if not here, on Sawxheads back in the day.

    To all the Chicken Little's out there...please take a chill pill and a deep breath and let the offseason play itself out...but be advised that the Red Sox will NOT be acquiring every free agent and player acquired this offseason.

    If February comes and the FO missed the boat on improving the team, then go ahead and rip at the Sox GM and ownership.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    SoxDog, five will get you ten that if Cherington blows this off season with ineptitude many of you will still be in denial and keep supporting him.  Here's one for you.  Let's assume the Sox finally realize what a dud this guy is and fire him.....do you seriosly think Cherington will ever get another GM job?  I thought so.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Difference is were waiting to see how it turns out while your already getting the noose ready to hang him tomorrow.

    If come ST and BC has done nothing, those of us that were waiting to see what he does, or doesnt do, will be the first ones to say he did a terrible job. But unlike the "ckicken littles" out there, we actually wait until there is something legit to complain about, not predict stuff then react to our own predictions/opinions. We actually wait for some facts first.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Drewski5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Reyes is the best all-around SS in the game (if healthy). 

    [/QUOTE]


    I would have a hard time giving 22M in 2015-17 to him or anyone who doesnt smash 30 Hr and drive in 120RBI with a .300avg and .500 SLG and close to a ..380-400 OBP.

    Hes one heck of a talent, no arguing that Drew. Hes also been injured a lot, as you mentioned.

    I view 20+M a year player as pure power guys like Miggy, Prince, Manny, etc., Guys who hit for average and power. not Jose Reyes.

    We agree Reyes is a great asset when healthy, but just differ on how we view the value of a guy with his skill set.

    [/QUOTE]

    99% of the time, I agree w you.  However, a durable Reyes would be one of my very few exceptions.  (Disclaimer: I understand that Reyes isnt healthy, I am creating a fictional player who has Reyes' talents but is more durable).

    Why?  Elite range at SS.  I think that if you can find an elite defensive SS who can bat .290...Thats a one of a kind player.  If Reyes was an outfielder, i wouldnt be interested at all.  (which is why the craw to Reyes comparisons are flawed.  Reyes main asset is he's elite defensively at a defense first position).

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    I am not so sure about this "elite range" stuff on Reyes.  I live in metro NY area, and remember no such accolades while he played for the Mets.  In fact, I remember SS not being his best projected position very early in his career.  But I do know that Reyes is not a real game changer.  Otherwise, the Mets would have been top contenders while he was in their lineup and the Marlins would have immediately improved upon his arrival.  20+ million/year is for game changers.  IMO, Reyes is NOT one and does not deserve to be paid like one.  The last 3 years of his deal will almost certainly be an albatross.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I am not so sure about this "elite range" stuff on Reyes.  I live in metro NY area, and remember no such accolades while he played for the Mets.  In fact, I remember SS not being his best projected position very early in his career.  But I do know that Reyes is not a real game changer.  Otherwise, the Mets would have been top contenders while he was in their lineup and the Marlins would have immediately improved upon his arrival.  20+ million/year is for game changers.  IMO, Reyes is NOT one and does not deserve to be paid like one.  The last 3 years of his deal will almost certainly be an albatross.

    [/QUOTE]

    If he doesnt have elite range, the contract is an albatross today!  I thought he did though.  He certainly has the quickness.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Ben will have always have his defenders, no matter what.  Meanwhile , the loyal Sox fans will have a second rate ballclub to root for. Even another last place finish will not change some minds. They will say it is a " bridge year ."  A bridge to what ?  Irrelevance ? 

    [/QUOTE]

    I am not defending Ben.  I am waiting to see what the team looks like next year before criticizing him.

    It is patently ridiculous to do otherwise.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    The team is best served for using 2013 as a means to put together the best formula for a winning team in 2014.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from kmr2318. Show kmr2318's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    The below is from Nick Cafardo’s recent Globe article on the Blue Jay’s deal…..looks like “outmaneuvered” was an accurate description for Boy Lightweight Cherington.

    Shortly after news broke Tuesday that the Blue Jays and Marlins were on the verge of a megadeal, a major league source confirmed the Red Sox had been discussing a smaller deal — albeit with some of the same players — with the Marlins.

    The Sox, according to the source, were working on bringing All-Star shortstop Jose Reyes and righthander Josh Johnson, a player the team has long coveted, to Boston. It’s not known what the Sox were offering, but it certainly involved some of their top prospects.

    The Sox seem to have many irons in the fire, from Torii Hunter (who may sign with the Tigers) to Nick Swisher, Anibal Sanchez, Mike Napoli, Adam LaRoche, Cody Ross, and others.

    But right now they find themselves looking up at the Jays.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    ben is not going to win any races to sign players...he will do what he does best...lateral movements of players and signing of marginal players...and to those who are advocating that he wait to sign free agents, the price only goes UP as the season nears, not down....

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    Maybe it's me but I can't get all weepy about not landing Reyes. 

    If you want to talk about defense, this team already has a ++ Defensive SS whom they're paying 2.06MM. 

    Unfortunately the guy hasn't proven yet that he can hit.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Reyes .780 OPS and 63 BB but the guy's got a reputation as a clubhouse problem - didn't we just get RID of some of those? - AND he's getting, what, $70MM over the next four years?

    For that disparity in money and character I'm willing to give Iglasis a chance to hit.

    Sometimes the best trades you make are those you don't make.  I think the Jays are going to regret this, ala Vernon Wells.    

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Maybe it's me but I can't get all weepy about not landing Reyes. 

    If you want to talk about defense, this team already has a ++ Defensive SS whom they're paying 2.06MM. 

    Unfortunately the guy hasn't proven yet that he can hit.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Reyes .780 OPS and 63 BB but the guy's got a reputation as a clubhouse problem - didn't we just get RID of some of those? - AND he's getting, what, $70MM over the next four years?

    For that disparity in money and character I'm willing to give Iglasis a chance to hit.

    Sometimes the best trades you make are those you don't make.  I think the Jays are going to regret this, ala Vernon Wells.    

    [/QUOTE]

    Actually 90+ million over the next 5 years, and the last 3 years average out to 22 million per.  His contract is heavily backloaded...no thanks

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ben is not going to win any races to sign players...he will do what he does best...lateral movements of players and signing of marginal players...and to those who are advocating that he wait to sign free agents, the price only goes UP as the season nears, not down....

    [/QUOTE]

    You make zero sense.  If "the price only goes up," then why would any free agent sign a contract before January.  There is no correlation whatsoever between "waiting and paying more."  Some of the best bargains are signed in January.  See Adrian Beltre and Cody Ross for the Sox alone...

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to Drewski5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I am not so sure about this "elite range" stuff on Reyes.  I live in metro NY area, and remember no such accolades while he played for the Mets.  In fact, I remember SS not being his best projected position very early in his career.  But I do know that Reyes is not a real game changer.  Otherwise, the Mets would have been top contenders while he was in their lineup and the Marlins would have immediately improved upon his arrival.  20+ million/year is for game changers.  IMO, Reyes is NOT one and does not deserve to be paid like one.  The last 3 years of his deal will almost certainly be an albatross.

    [/QUOTE]

    If he doesnt have elite range, the contract is an albatross today!  I thought he did though.  He certainly has the quickness.

    [/QUOTE]

    WAR can be a little sketchy over a short period, but 2009-2012, Reyes' numbers we -.9, -5.0, -3.1, and -2.8.  He had -0- votes in the Fielding bible in 2012, finished 15th in 2011, no votes in 2010, nothing in 2009.  There are typically 15-20 SS's that will get votes, so this a wide array of sources trashing his fielding.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Drewski5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I am not so sure about this "elite range" stuff on Reyes.  I live in metro NY area, and remember no such accolades while he played for the Mets.  In fact, I remember SS not being his best projected position very early in his career.  But I do know that Reyes is not a real game changer.  Otherwise, the Mets would have been top contenders while he was in their lineup and the Marlins would have immediately improved upon his arrival.  20+ million/year is for game changers.  IMO, Reyes is NOT one and does not deserve to be paid like one.  The last 3 years of his deal will almost certainly be an albatross.

    [/QUOTE]

    If he doesnt have elite range, the contract is an albatross today!  I thought he did though.  He certainly has the quickness.

    [/QUOTE]

    WAR can be a little sketchy over a short period, but 2009-2012, Reyes' numbers we -.9, -5.0, -3.1, and -2.8.  He had -0- votes in the Fielding bible in 2012, finished 15th in 2011, no votes in 2010, nothing in 2009.  There are typically 15-20 SS's that will get votes, so this a wide array of sources trashing his fielding.

    [/QUOTE]

    Color me convinced.  No thanks on Reyes for 22m/yr.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to jasko2248's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ben is not going to win any races to sign players...he will do what he does best...lateral movements of players and signing of marginal players...and to those who are advocating that he wait to sign free agents, the price only goes UP as the season nears, not down....

    [/QUOTE]

    You make zero sense.  If "the price only goes up," then why would any free agent sign a contract before January.  There is no correlation whatsoever between "waiting and paying more."  Some of the best bargains are signed in January.  See Adrian Beltre and Cody Ross for the Sox alone...

    [/QUOTE]


    Jasko,

    guys like geo and fred will not allow common sense into their mindless bashing of BC. It doesnt help their stance so it is not a welcome asset.

    Many here have countered their bashing with very simple logic and facts, but they choose to ignore which makes me believe its all part of their schtick. I refuse to think anyone has that little common sense.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Chump Cherington Off to Great Rebuilding Strategy - Even the Jays Outmaneuver Him

    In response to Drewski5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
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    In response to Drewski5's comment:
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    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I am not so sure about this "elite range" stuff on Reyes.  I live in metro NY area, and remember no such accolades while he played for the Mets.  In fact, I remember SS not being his best projected position very early in his career.  But I do know that Reyes is not a real game changer.  Otherwise, the Mets would have been top contenders while he was in their lineup and the Marlins would have immediately improved upon his arrival.  20+ million/year is for game changers.  IMO, Reyes is NOT one and does not deserve to be paid like one.  The last 3 years of his deal will almost certainly be an albatross.

    [/QUOTE]

    If he doesnt have elite range, the contract is an albatross today!  I thought he did though.  He certainly has the quickness.

    [/QUOTE]

    WAR can be a little sketchy over a short period, but 2009-2012, Reyes' numbers we -.9, -5.0, -3.1, and -2.8.  He had -0- votes in the Fielding bible in 2012, finished 15th in 2011, no votes in 2010, nothing in 2009.  There are typically 15-20 SS's that will get votes, so this a wide array of sources trashing his fielding.

    [/QUOTE]

    Color me convinced.  No thanks on Reyes for 22m/yr.

    [/QUOTE]


    Those are some awful numbers...I knew he wasnt a great fielder, but had no idea he was looked upon this badly...

     

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