Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from seannybboi. Show seannybboi's posts

    Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    Ciriaco has been the mose clutch hitter lately only without the power in his bat.  He's hitting like a leadoff hitter and delivers when the game is on the line.  He doesn't walk too many but he has respectable batting average .342 in 21 games with 73 ABs.  He certainly has range and arm to be a solid defensive SS and he has speed to steal 30 bases yearly. 

    Ciriaco is pre-arb so he will be back if he continues to hit like this. 

    My question to you is who will be pick as our starting SS in 2013 and expect him to start regularly? 
     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    Right Ciriaco!!!    He is already hitting in the .300 range while Iggy cant get his average over .250 at the AAA level!!

    Iggy should be trade off season cuz Boston already have two more SS down in the farm system who is a bit younger than him and is more likely projected to be better than Iggy!!
     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    For what they're worth, here are the minor league hitting lines for 26-year-old Pedro Ciriaco and 22-year-old Jose Iglesias:

    Ciriaco 3502 PA, .272/.299/.357/.656
    Iglesias 998 PA, .257/.305/.305/.610
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    Too soon to choose, especially when we don't have to.  Ciriaco right now seems way ahead of Iglesias, but he is also 4 years older. 

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    It would be nice to have both on the 2013 roster with Aviles as the utility player (have Mike work on OF in ST 2013).
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from rightymclefty. Show rightymclefty's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    Neither is the long term solution to a problem position since Nomar was traded.
    Ciriaco is having a wonderful season, so far, and is a great story.
    He's not a great fielder, and has no power at all.
    Inglesias is the far better fielder of the two, but a terrible hitter.
    Sox have fine SS prospects in the lower minors, who seem to be better all around players than these two, who represent a "bridge" to them.
    Aviles is a good utility guy to have around. He's done pretty much what the team has asked him to do. I don't think he's an every day SS on a winning team.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    Clearly, Magic Ciriaco is going to be around a long time.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from angeroo. Show angeroo's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    I'd go with Iglesias.  I think he has more upside.  If he can bat over .250, with that glove, I'll take it.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    Iglesias hands down.  Better defensively and will likely be better offensively as well....he stilll young and has shown improvement with his bat.  Iglesias will develop a respectable bat, not power wise, but a decent hit tool with doubles power.  With his defnse and age it shows a clear advantage over Ciarco....who will fade. 
     
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    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    In Response to Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?:
    Iglesias hands down.  Better defensively and will likely be better offensively as well....he stilll young and has shown improvement with his bat.  Iglesias will develop a respectable bat, not power wise, but a decent hit tool with doubles power.  With his defnse and age it shows a clear advantage over Ciarco....who will fade. 
    Posted by ctredsoxfanhugh


    Agree.  I've been saying all along that Ciriaco HAS to come back to earth sometime.  If he doesn't, he'll be one of those "Great Stories".  But if/when he does, I think he'll be an outstanding utility infielder/pinch runner.  It'd be nice to have him and Iglesias in Boston next year, we might even see it in September...
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    The Sox philosophy with Ciriaco should be simple – play him every day until he gives them a reason not to. Beyond that, worrying about his long term future is absurd.

    Clearly, Ciriaco-Mania is rampant, largely because there has been little else, and he stands out as an overachiever on a team with many more underachievers. He is NOT a long term solution, possibly not even at utility infielder. Fans who think he has suddenly morphed into a game-changing offensive force at shortstop are going to be very disappointed and launch into denial when he suddenly isn’t one. And to make claims like “even when he stops hitting, he will get on base because of his speed” is nothing more than wishful thinking. He was just as fast in the minors, and still only managed a .299 OBP. This year was the first time his OBP above AA topped .300, and he has never topped .320 above A ball, yet somehow he will turn into an OBP machine at the MLB level at age 26?

    One might think fans could have learned that hot starts aren’t necessarily representative of long term potential from Daniel Nava, who not so long ago (one month? Two months?) many fany were touting as a no-brainer to replace the struggling Carl Crawford in LF. Odd, no one commented on how Crawford’s speed would guarantee getting on base and changing the game, by the way.

    And Punto’s career, even recently, has been infinitely better than Ciriaco’s. Punto had an .809 OPS last year at age 33, largely carried by his career-high .388OBP. That number is a full 100 points higher than the highest number Ciriaco has managed in the last 3 years in the minors (pre-Pawtucket). And while Ciriaco does have a .351 career OBP in a limited MLB career, it is all but completely carried by his .339BA.

    And it’s not hard to see where that .339BA comes from. Looking at Ciriaco’s career BABIP (.422!!) and the subsequent splits, it is not hard to see he has actually been a little lucky. And by “a little lucky”, I mean “can I get this guy into my MegaMillions office pool?” His ground ball BABIP is an absurd .405, which is insane even for those claiming his difference making speed. Dee Gordon is also ridiculously fast, yet only has a .245BABIP on ground balls. A realistic look at Ciriaco’s splits shows his BABIP should drop from .422 for his career down to .377, and that is assuming he can maintain his current 30% line drive rate. That drop alone drops his career batting average to a respectable .301. However, it also drops his OBP to about .316. Anyone check Nick Punto’s OBP this year? (Hint: 310, or 6 fewer times on base in 1,000 plate appearances.)

    And then what would happen to Ciriaco when (not “if”) his LD% starts to drop to a much more realistic 17-18%? (Yes, I actually ran the numbers.) You are looking at a .253 hitter with a .269OBP. That is slightly less offense than the Sox are currently getting from Mike Aviles.  Given his current rate of XBH, Ciriaco will then couple that OBP with a .346SLG for a .615OPS. (All you Punto Detractors, please check out Nick’s current OPS.) And that is assuming he can maintain a 17-18% line drive rate, which is not exactly commonplace. In fact, it is actually fairly decent, and while certainly attainable, probably about a best case scenario for Ciriaco.

    It is amazing how many fans can claim to remember watching Joe Cronin and Boby Doerr, yet somehow cannot remember as far back as Daniel Nava. And the perception of anyone who struggles? Lester? Done. Beckett? Done. Crawford? Done. Lackey? Done? Yet Ciriaco struggled for years in the minors, but suddenly 80 at-bats later and the Sox have the second coming of Rafael Furcal. And it is time to worry about locking him up!!

    Ciriaco should be allowed to ride out his hot streak, and if he can keep himself in the game with his defense, I see no reason he cannot bat ninth. But beyond 2012, I wouldn’t worry about him, and neither should you. He might stick around as a utility INF (possibly in Pawtucket), but he probably won’t be as much of an improvement over Punto as many fans think, assuming he is one at all.

    And you will have found some other shiny new toy on a hot streak to fawn over by then…

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    None of the above.

    Ciriaco is playing well now so should continue to start but it is very unlikely he will keep it up.

    Aviles has done fine but has slumped as of late, he will still get a good portion of starts at SS. 

    Iggy can't hit.

    The starting SS next year will be none of these 3 I would not think.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    In Response to Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?:
    The Sox philosophy with Ciriaco should be simple – play him every day until he gives them a reason not to. Beyond that, worrying about his long term future is absurd. Clearly, Ciriaco-Mania is rampant, largely because there has been little else, and he stands out as an overachiever on a team with many more underachievers. He is NOT a long term solution, possibly not even at utility infielder. Fans who think he has suddenly morphed into a game-changing offensive force at shortstop are going to be very disappointed and launch into denial when he suddenly isn’t one. And to make claims like “even when he stops hitting, he will get on base because of his speed” is nothing more than wishful thinking. He was just as fast in the minors, and still only managed a .299 OBP. This year was the first time his OBP above AA topped .300, and he has never topped .320 above A ball, yet somehow he will turn into an OBP machine at the MLB level at age 26? One might think fans could have learned that hot starts aren’t necessarily representative of long term potential from Daniel Nava, who not so long ago (one month? Two months?) many fany were touting as a no-brainer to replace the struggling Carl Crawford in LF. Odd, no one commented on how Crawford’s speed would guarantee getting on base and changing the game, by the way. And Punto’s career, even recently, has been infinitely better than Ciriaco’s. Punto had an .809 OPS last year at age 33, largely carried by his career-high .388OBP. That number is a full 100 points higher than the highest number Ciriaco has managed in the last 3 years in the minors (pre-Pawtucket). And while Ciriaco does have a .351 career OBP in a limited MLB career, it is all but completely carried by his .339BA. And it’s not hard to see where that .339BA comes from. Looking at Ciriaco’s career BABIP (.422!!) and the subsequent splits, it is not hard to see he has actually been a little lucky. And by “a little lucky”, I mean “can I get this guy into my MegaMillions office pool?” His ground ball BABIP is an absurd .405, which is insane even for those claiming his difference making speed. Dee Gordon is also ridiculously fast, yet only has a .245BABIP on ground balls. A realistic look at Ciriaco’s splits shows his BABIP should drop from .422 for his career down to .377, and that is assuming he can maintain his current 30% line drive rate. That drop alone drops his career batting average to a respectable .301. However, it also drops his OBP to about .316. Anyone check Nick Punto’s OBP this year? (Hint: 310, or 6 fewer times on base in 1,000 plate appearances.) And then what would happen to Ciriaco when (not “if”) his LD% starts to drop to a much more realistic 17-18%? (Yes, I actually ran the numbers.) You are looking at a .253 hitter with a .269OBP. That is slightly less offense than the Sox are currently getting from Mike Aviles.  Given his current rate of XBH, Ciriaco will then couple that OBP with a .346SLG for a .615OPS. (All you Punto Detractors, please check out Nick’s current OPS.) And that is assuming he can maintain a 17-18% line drive rate, which is not exactly commonplace. In fact, it is actually fairly decent, and while certainly attainable, probably about a best case scenario for Ciriaco. It is amazing how many fans can claim to remember watching Joe Cronin and Boby Doerr, yet somehow cannot remember as far back as Daniel Nava. And the perception of anyone who struggles? Lester? Done. Beckett? Done. Crawford? Done. Lackey? Done? Yet Ciriaco struggled for years in the minors, but suddenly 80 at-bats later and the Sox have the second coming of Rafael Furcal. And it is time to worry about locking him up!! Ciriaco should be allowed to ride out his hot streak, and if he can keep himself in the game with his defense, I see no reason he cannot bat ninth. But beyond 2012, I wouldn’t worry about him, and neither should you. He might stick around as a utility INF (possibly in Pawtucket), but he probably won’t be as much of an improvement over Punto as many fans think, assuming he is one at all. And you will have found some other shiny new toy on a hot streak to fawn over by then…
    Posted by notin

    notin making a push for 2012 Poster of the Year,

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    In Response to Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?:
    None of the above. Ciriaco is playing well now so should continue to start but it is very unlikely he will keep it up. Aviles has done fine but has slumped as of late, he will still get a good portion of starts at SS.  Iggy can't hit. The starting SS next year will be none of these 3 I would not think.
    Posted by snakeoil123
    That's a reasonable guess.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    A brief history of Red Sox SSs since 2004 with 150+ innings (rounded off to nearest hundred:

    2004
    Reese  500
    Cabrera 500
    Nomar  300

    2005
    Renteria 1300

    2006
    Gonzo 1000
    Cora  400

    2007
    Lugo  1200
    Cora     200

    2008
    Lugo  700
    Cora  400
    Lowrie 400

    2009
    Green  600
    Gonzo  400
    Lugo    200

    2010
    Scutaro  1200
    Lowrie  200

    2011
    Scutaro  900
    Lowrie  400

    2012
    Aviles  800

    How much longer will it take for us to find a great fielding SS who can play for us for 3 or more years. One who can get on base at a decent rate would be icing on the cake.

    Here's what we have within the system- some nice prospects- some decent utility types- some slight chances of a miracle, but nothing certain:

    Aviles  (arb through 2014)
    Punto  (signed through 2013)
    Ciriaco (pre-arb)
    Iggy    (signed through 2013, then arbs) #5 prospect
    Bogaerts #1 prospect on soxprospects
    Marrero #9
    Vinicio #19
    Lin #23

    I'm pretty certain one of these prospects will turn into a quality SS, but for 2013 ???
     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    BOTH  !!!!!!  There is a place for them both......  PUNTO ????????????
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    In Response to Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?:
    BOTH  !!!!!!  There is a place for them both......  PUNTO ????????????
    Posted by Bill-806

    Yes, if we move Punto, we could actually keep all 3 on the 25 man roster (Aviles, Iggy and Ciriaco), but I doubt it ends up like that.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TitleTown11. Show TitleTown11's posts

    Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?

    In Response to Re: Ciriaco VS Iglesias Who do you choose?:
    The Sox philosophy with Ciriaco should be simple – play him every day until he gives them a reason not to. Beyond that, worrying about his long term future is absurd. Clearly, Ciriaco-Mania is rampant, largely because there has been little else, and he stands out as an overachiever on a team with many more underachievers. He is NOT a long term solution, possibly not even at utility infielder. Fans who think he has suddenly morphed into a game-changing offensive force at shortstop are going to be very disappointed and launch into denial when he suddenly isn’t one. And to make claims like “even when he stops hitting, he will get on base because of his speed” is nothing more than wishful thinking. He was just as fast in the minors, and still only managed a .299 OBP. This year was the first time his OBP above AA topped .300, and he has never topped .320 above A ball, yet somehow he will turn into an OBP machine at the MLB level at age 26? One might think fans could have learned that hot starts aren’t necessarily representative of long term potential from Daniel Nava, who not so long ago (one month? Two months?) many fany were touting as a no-brainer to replace the struggling Carl Crawford in LF. Odd, no one commented on how Crawford’s speed would guarantee getting on base and changing the game, by the way. And Punto’s career, even recently, has been infinitely better than Ciriaco’s. Punto had an .809 OPS last year at age 33, largely carried by his career-high .388OBP. That number is a full 100 points higher than the highest number Ciriaco has managed in the last 3 years in the minors (pre-Pawtucket). And while Ciriaco does have a .351 career OBP in a limited MLB career, it is all but completely carried by his .339BA. And it’s not hard to see where that .339BA comes from. Looking at Ciriaco’s career BABIP (.422!!) and the subsequent splits, it is not hard to see he has actually been a little lucky. And by “a little lucky”, I mean “can I get this guy into my MegaMillions office pool?” His ground ball BABIP is an absurd .405, which is insane even for those claiming his difference making speed. Dee Gordon is also ridiculously fast, yet only has a .245BABIP on ground balls. A realistic look at Ciriaco’s splits shows his BABIP should drop from .422 for his career down to .377, and that is assuming he can maintain his current 30% line drive rate. That drop alone drops his career batting average to a respectable .301. However, it also drops his OBP to about .316. Anyone check Nick Punto’s OBP this year? (Hint: 310, or 6 fewer times on base in 1,000 plate appearances.) And then what would happen to Ciriaco when (not “if”) his LD% starts to drop to a much more realistic 17-18%? (Yes, I actually ran the numbers.) You are looking at a .253 hitter with a .269OBP. That is slightly less offense than the Sox are currently getting from Mike Aviles.  Given his current rate of XBH, Ciriaco will then couple that OBP with a .346SLG for a .615OPS. (All you Punto Detractors, please check out Nick’s current OPS.) And that is assuming he can maintain a 17-18% line drive rate, which is not exactly commonplace. In fact, it is actually fairly decent, and while certainly attainable, probably about a best case scenario for Ciriaco. It is amazing how many fans can claim to remember watching Joe Cronin and Boby Doerr, yet somehow cannot remember as far back as Daniel Nava. And the perception of anyone who struggles? Lester? Done. Beckett? Done. Crawford? Done. Lackey? Done? Yet Ciriaco struggled for years in the minors, but suddenly 80 at-bats later and the Sox have the second coming of Rafael Furcal. And it is time to worry about locking him up!! Ciriaco should be allowed to ride out his hot streak, and if he can keep himself in the game with his defense, I see no reason he cannot bat ninth. But beyond 2012, I wouldn’t worry about him, and neither should you. He might stick around as a utility INF (possibly in Pawtucket), but he probably won’t be as much of an improvement over Punto as many fans think, assuming he is one at all. And you will have found some other shiny new toy on a hot streak to fawn over by then…
    Posted by notin


    Here here...well researched and spoken...errr - typed
     
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