Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from billge. Show billge's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    Well, at this stage, I would rather root against Clay to prove how much smarter I am than other posters . You would not believe how good that makes me feel .The delivery system of failure by Clay is just a way of maximizing proof of my intellectual superiority here . It isn't about winning or losing , its about feeding my ego. I feel great,  just like back in junior high school.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    In response to royf19's comment:
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    Joe B, slasher, pumpsie,

    Rooting for a Boston Red Sox pitcher to do well and hoping a talented player can live up to his potential. Disgusting. You all should be ashamed of yourselves.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement]

    I thought I was going to get yelled at for rooting for a player to do well to maximize his trade value.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
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    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
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    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
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    In response to bosoxmal's comment:
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    In response to J-BAY's comment:
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    Pete AbrahamVerified account
    ‏@PeteAbe
    8th MLB shutout with less than 100 pitches this season.

    [/QUOTE]


    I hope the young Red Sox pitchers were paying attention. There is no mystery about Buchholz; when he's healthy he's as good as there is. And, he sure looks healthy to me!

    [/QUOTE]

    He is not always effective, even when he is healthy. He has not been injured this year, to the best of my knowledge, yet his overall ERA is over 5 still. Nonetheless, Andrewmitch's assertion that he is washed up is absurd. I was going to give him until next July or thereabouts to turn it around; seems its happening earlier. Inconsistent is the best word to describe him; he needs to smooth out the rough edges.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     

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    Or maybe, just maybe, you use the next 5.5 hours seeing if anyone is desperate enough to reach deep into their minor league system for him.

    As you mention, the idea that he is finished is absurd, but even for his fans, he is, at best, an enigma.

    I am in no way motivated to trade him, but I wouldn't hang up on anyone either.

    Even if you put him revocable waivers, and a non-desperate team like the Cubs claimed him, their need for pitching, coupled with our need for a young power bat in the OF, would make a pretty good fit.

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    absolutely, this is an ANOTHER LIMITED Window for Ben to trade him and get SOMETHING for him.

    [/QUOTE]

    It would have to be a very very good offer for me to want to send him packing. When he is as effective as he has been the last several starts he is very hard to beat.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    I wonder what anti-anxiety medication the team physician has him on lately.  It could be a number or different things.  If so, I'm glad they've found something effective.  Or, maybe they decreased the dose because of his deer-in-the-headlight look.

    Whatever, I'm glad it's working.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    In response to S5's comment:
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    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
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    In response to S5's comment:
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    There are two things we can agree on.  That you never know what you're going to get, and that he's getting $12M in 2015.

    If you're so anxious to get rid of him because he's washed up who do you think is going to give up prospects AND pay him $12M next year?

    Unless you think he's worth $12M next year in which case why would you want to trade him?

    This whole thing reminds me of Jon Lester last year.  Lester went through a down month when posters were clamoring to get rid of him, send him to Pawtucket, wash him out of baseball, ANYTHING, just get him off this team!  The FO stayed with him because they saw his potential, just as they see the potential in Buchholz.  

    In today's stupid market if he has another up and down year and goes .500 he earns his $12M, and if the coaches can straighten out his problems - something they seem to be able to do from time to time - he could be worth twice that. 

    There's no way I'd get rid of him right now with him showing the potential he's shown in the past two games.  This is one that could REALLY bite us on the donkey. 

    Any owners who sign previously suspended PED abusers to a big $$ contract are as guilty of perpetuating the PED problem as are the players.

    And I have never posted here under any other names.

    [/QUOTE]


    why are you using the word "potential" with guys like Clay and Lester?

    [/QUOTE]

    Pay attention:

    It's because both of those players have had their ups and downs and both players have a tremendous upside (potential), an upside that is so big that you hold on to them and hope you can work through the issues.  
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    see if you can understand this:  when a guy goes through HS or college and then the minors and then is at the ML level for 5+ years you know longer talk about "upside"; they should had reached their full potential or close to it by that point.  In fact, statistically speaking both guys should be on the downswing of their career based purely on age.  Sorry, but you should not use the word potential anymore with those 2.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    Apparently one way to turn a guy into an ace is trade the 1-2-3 SPs ahead of him...:-)...Clay is an all-time enigma...Love him, hate him, villify him, but he can throw a no hitter and follow it up with a 7 ER effort. It's just Clay being Clay.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
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    In response to S5's comment:
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    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
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    In response to S5's comment:
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    There are two things we can agree on.  That you never know what you're going to get, and that he's getting $12M in 2015.

    If you're so anxious to get rid of him because he's washed up who do you think is going to give up prospects AND pay him $12M next year?

    Unless you think he's worth $12M next year in which case why would you want to trade him?

    This whole thing reminds me of Jon Lester last year.  Lester went through a down month when posters were clamoring to get rid of him, send him to Pawtucket, wash him out of baseball, ANYTHING, just get him off this team!  The FO stayed with him because they saw his potential, just as they see the potential in Buchholz.  

    In today's stupid market if he has another up and down year and goes .500 he earns his $12M, and if the coaches can straighten out his problems - something they seem to be able to do from time to time - he could be worth twice that. 

    There's no way I'd get rid of him right now with him showing the potential he's shown in the past two games.  This is one that could REALLY bite us on the donkey. 

    Any owners who sign previously suspended PED abusers to a big $$ contract are as guilty of perpetuating the PED problem as are the players.

    And I have never posted here under any other names.

    [/QUOTE]


    why are you using the word "potential" with guys like Clay and Lester?

    [/QUOTE]

    Pay attention:

    It's because both of those players have had their ups and downs and both players have a tremendous upside (potential), an upside that is so big that you hold on to them and hope you can work through the issues.  
    [object HTMLDivElement]

    [/QUOTE]


    see if you can understand this:  when a guy goes through HS or college and then the minors and then is at the ML level for 5+ years you know longer talk about "upside"; they should had reached their full potential or close to it by that point.  In fact, statistically speaking both guys should be on the downswing of their career based purely on age.  Sorry, but you should not use the word potential anymore with those 2.

    [/QUOTE]

    Thanks for your opinion.  I'll be sure to give it the weight it deserves.  

    The fact is that when a player like Buch goes through a time just over a year ago when he's one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball, then goes into a funk for whatever reason, and then has a couple of games when he's one of the best again it's my opinion that he has the POTENTIAL to regain his prior ability.  Will it last forever?  I'd bet against that, but I'd say that he has the POTENTIAL to be a bargain next year at $12M.  He certainly wouldn't be the first pitcher to have good years at age 30+ and in today's market even if he's a #3 with an ERA of 3+ he's not overpaid.

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    The important thing for Clay is that he was given no chance to be removed from the rotation, no pressure of a pennant race, no penalty from his team for pitching poorly. He's rewarded them with some good starts over the past month. Maybe it will work out for him, maybe it won't. I hope he can be consistent, which he has not proven to be this year.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slasher9's comment:
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    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
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    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
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    This forum is kind of unique in that injured players are frequently vilified . As if it were their own fault. The fact is that injuries are a part of sports and always have been. No team or athlete is exempt. That is why depth is so important. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

    [/QUOTE]


    Was he injured when he was getting shelled to the tune of a 6+ ERA?

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    yes.

    i have noted that you are a yankees fan.

     

    other names i have posted under:  none

     

    [/QUOTE]


    and we have all noted how many times you continue to be wrong.......

    [/QUOTE]
    That's great, I will keep trying.  Or maybe...a better idea would be for me to start a thread everytime Ithink I am right about something.  Nah, never mind...that would be lame.

    .  One thing is for certain....no one can ever call me a Yankees fan....

     

     

    other names i have posted under:  none

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    Ever since Buch came up and pitched a no-hitter that time, I believe it was around Labor Day, I've been a (often frustrated) fan.  Last season, he was sailing toward a Cy Young when he came up with a series of semi-phantom injuries and was virtually absent the rest of the season, we won it all without him.  He comes and he goes.  He's an enigma wrapped in a conundrum boxed in a mystery, or something like that, I forget how it goes.  He'll never realize his considerable promise, but he may give us another great season or two over the next three or four years.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    I am a Buchholz fan.  Got a problem with that?

     

    I am a fan of Clay Buchholz because he pitches for the Red Sox, and I am a fan of the Red Sox.  Not a an in the way some are.  You know the type - hating any player whose prior approval for acquisition they did not give consent to, and clearly taking the non-use of their suggestions as a personal affront.  They also tend to think they know as much about all the players as the front office personnel, presumably because they can look them up on The Baseball Cube.

     

    As long as Clay pitches for Boston, I am a fan.  And I don't pretend to be on the same plane as the Sox FO, which is where far too many think they are...

     

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The important thing for Clay is that he was given no chance to be removed from the rotation, no pressure of a pennant race, no penalty from his team for pitching poorly. He's rewarded them with some good starts over the past month. Maybe it will work out for him, maybe it won't. I hope he can be consistent, which he has not proven to be this year.

    [/QUOTE]

    It's probably no coincidence that since the Sox folded coupled with the realization that no matter how poorly he pitched mgt simply would not do the right thing and remove him from the rotation that he started to pitch better. 

    There are literally thousands of guys pitching right now who could throw a good game the majors.  One good game.  Or maybe one good game a month.  But doing it consistently every 5 games for an entire season and then for 5-10 years on top of that is when  you separate the men from the boys.  Lots of guys with potential.  Potential doesn't win games.  You know what does?  Consistency.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    There are literally thousands of guys pitching right now who could throw a good game the majors.  One good game.  Or maybe one good game a month.  But doing it consistently every 5 games for an entire season and then for 5-10 years on top of that is when  you separate the men from the boys.  Lots of guys with potential.  Potential doesn't win games.  You know what does?  Consistency.

    [/QUOTE]

    And how many pitchers in baseball right now can you say that about?  It's a pretty short list.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    DAD thinks that the young catcher has won over CLAY's confidence....  Critical to the THINKING of Clay !!

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazy-world-of-troybrown. Show crazy-world-of-troybrown's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    I'll be looking at if he Pitches like a spoiler in the last Month. Will make me feel better going into next season. Jays are out probably, but after that 2 against the O's, 1 against Pirates, and 1 against Yanks.
    O's, Pirates, and Yanks could be looking Play-offs, with the O's almost assured. Lets see how he performs against teams that will be fighting hard for wins.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    Buch has talent. He always has. He's battle injuries and slumps- like lots of players, but he has also had long stretches of pitching very well. For that, a good management team does not just give up on.

    Some posters here would have been happy had Ben just cut him at various times over the past few years. I'm pretty sure some of these same posters would have been or would be complaining when Buch did well for his next team.

    I wouldn't be counting on Buch to be our ace or number 2 guy next year and beyond. I wouldn't count on 28+ starts either. But, I would not give up on Buch, and I would certainly give him every opportunity to be in our rotation next year.

    That does not mean I would not also make sure we have a solid #6 and 7 SP'er in waiting- not just because of Buch's fragility and "inconsistencies", but because other starters like Kelly, de la Rosa, Webster, and Ranaudo also have questions and concerns.

     

    Sox4ever

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    Ideally, I'd like to see Kelly, Buch, de la Rosa, Webster and Ranaudo (Owens too) fight for just the 4 & 5 slots, but in reality, they will probably be battling for the 3, 4 & 5 slots.

    Sox4ever

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazy-world-of-troybrown. Show crazy-world-of-troybrown's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Buch has talent. He always has. He's battle injuries and slumps- like lots of players, but he has also had long stretches of pitching very well. For that, a good management team does not just give up on.

    Some posters here would have been happy had Ben just cut him at various times over the past few years. I'm pretty sure some of these same posters would have been or would be complaining when Buch did well for his next team.

    I wouldn't be counting on Buch to be our ace or number 2 guy next year and beyond. I wouldn't count on 28+ starts either. But, I would not give up on Buch, and I would certainly give him every opportunity to be in our rotation next year.

    That does not mean I would not also make sure we have a solid #6 and 7 SP'er in waiting- not just because of Buch's fragility and "inconsistencies", but because other starters like Kelly, de la Rosa, Webster, and Ranaudo also have questions and concerns.

     

    Sox4ever

    [/QUOTE]
    I always have questions and concerns with 1 or two year starters. You'll probably see inconsistency, from kids.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    My ideal rotation next year:

    1 - Scherzer (26X6=156) or Lester (24X5=120) (sign)

    2 - Latos or Sale (trade; I'd probably use the talent only to get a starter and forget about Stanton since we did technically already give our offense a boost recently)

    3- Kelly

    4, 5 - tryout for guys already on the roster (gotta go cheap here to balance out the allocation to the 1 hole and even the 2 hole)

    Need to have 1 lefty (so either Lester or Sale or Owens needs to be in the rotation)

     

    It may sound like a lot but it's not asking a lot for the Sox to make 1 big FA signing and 1 big trade this winter.  They have the money in the budget now plus assets in the system plus they did pretty much nothing last winter.......

    The other tryout in Spring Training will be for a lead off hitter.  This is my main concern with the offense going into next year.  We got killed this year w/o Ellsbury and Injurino setting the tables for us......Pedey can handle the 2 hole but who bats leadoff?  Other slots OBP is no longer our strength.  We need a strong OBP guy.  Holt, Castillo, and even Boggarts and maybe Betts will be in the mix but I need a 380 OBP in that slot and not a hacker........

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Buch has talent. He always has. He's battle injuries and slumps- like lots of players, but he has also had long stretches of pitching very well. For that, a good management team does not just give up on.

    Some posters here would have been happy had Ben just cut him at various times over the past few years. I'm pretty sure some of these same posters would have been or would be complaining when Buch did well for his next team.

    I wouldn't be counting on Buch to be our ace or number 2 guy next year and beyond. I wouldn't count on 28+ starts either. But, I would not give up on Buch, and I would certainly give him every opportunity to be in our rotation next year.

    That does not mean I would not also make sure we have a solid #6 and 7 SP'er in waiting- not just because of Buch's fragility and "inconsistencies", but because other starters like Kelly, de la Rosa, Webster, and Ranaudo also have questions and concerns.

     

    Sox4ever

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    Of course, it would've been clinically insane to have cut him.  I can understand if someone wanted to trade him during one of his manic streaks, but since 2010, even with all the injuries, he is 25 games over .500.  There are only 10 other pitchers 25 games > .500 during that stretch.

    Just for comparison purposes, Lester (since 2010) is 22 over .500 with a 3.59 while Buchholz is 25 over .500 with a 3.61.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Buch has talent. He always has. He's battle injuries and slumps- like lots of players, but he has also had long stretches of pitching very well. For that, a good management team does not just give up on.

    Some posters here would have been happy had Ben just cut him at various times over the past few years. I'm pretty sure some of these same posters would have been or would be complaining when Buch did well for his next team.

    I wouldn't be counting on Buch to be our ace or number 2 guy next year and beyond. I wouldn't count on 28+ starts either. But, I would not give up on Buch, and I would certainly give him every opportunity to be in our rotation next year.

    That does not mean I would not also make sure we have a solid #6 and 7 SP'er in waiting- not just because of Buch's fragility and "inconsistencies", but because other starters like Kelly, de la Rosa, Webster, and Ranaudo also have questions and concerns.

     

    Sox4ever

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement]

    Of course, it would've been clinically insane to have cut him.  I can understand if someone wanted to trade him during one of his manic streaks, but since 2010, even with all the injuries, he is 25 games over .500.  There are only 10 other pitchers 25 games > .500 during that stretch.

    Just for comparison purposes, Lester (since 2010) is 22 over .500 with a 3.59 while Buchholz is 25 over .500 with a 3.61.

    [/QUOTE]


    wow

    You realize that Lester had 78 W's and Clay only 52 including the post season of 2013. That's like a 15 game winner vs a 10 game winner.  Huge difference there.  Next time, try and show the entire picture like total # of W's and innings pitched.  Most of Buck's "over 500" wins game in a season where he missed 3 FULL MONTHS.  Never has Day to Day Clay had 30 GS or 200 IP while Lester does that year in and year out..........Really, do not compare the 2.  Evah...........

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    I have been encouraged by what I've seen the last few games from Clay. To me..every good start he has will hopefully go a long way towards helping whatever mental issues he has going on.

    How many here think Vasquez has good amount to do with the pitching improvement from Clay. I don't discount it..that's for sure.

    "It is not down in any map...trueplaces never are...." ( Melville)

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:


    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Buch has talent. He always has. He's battle injuries and slumps- like lots of players, but he has also had long stretches of pitching very well. For that, a good management team does not just give up on.


    Some posters here would have been happy had Ben just cut him at various times over the past few years. I'm pretty sure some of these same posters would have been or would be complaining when Buch did well for his next team.


    I wouldn't be counting on Buch to be our ace or number 2 guy next year and beyond. I wouldn't count on 28+ starts either. But, I would not give up on Buch, and I would certainly give him every opportunity to be in our rotation next year.


    That does not mean I would not also make sure we have a solid #6 and 7 SP'er in waiting- not just because of Buch's fragility and "inconsistencies", but because other starters like Kelly, de la Rosa, Webster, and Ranaudo also have questions and concerns.


     


    Sox4ever





    [object HTMLDivElement]


    Of course, it would've been clinically insane to have cut him.  I can understand if someone wanted to trade him during one of his manic streaks, but since 2010, even with all the injuries, he is 25 games over .500.  There are only 10 other pitchers 25 games > .500 during that stretch.


    Just for comparison purposes, Lester (since 2010) is 22 over .500 with a 3.59 while Buchholz is 25 over .500 with a 3.61.


    [/QUOTE]


    wow


    You realize that Lester had 78 W's and Clay only 52 including the post season of 2013. That's like a 15 game winner vs a 10 game winner.  Huge difference there.  Next time, try and show the entire picture like total # of W's and innings pitched.  Most of Buck's "over 500" wins game in a season where he missed 3 FULL MONTHS.  Never has Day to Day Clay had 30 GS or 200 IP while Lester does that year in and year out..........Really, do not compare the 2.  Evah...........


    [/QUOTE]


    So, because Buch is not as good as Lester, he must stink?


    10 game winners are not easy to come by either, and many also have 10 losses or more.


    BTW, I think Lester has about 50 losses since 2010. (He's about 78-50.) Buch is about 52-27. So, if you want to throw W-L's out there- a poor stat, the difference is about 26 more wins and 23 more losses.


    Nobody is saying Buch is as good or consistent as Lester, but he's not a throw-away pitcher either.


    He's worth keeping, since his stock is low right now.


    He's worth giving a chance to be in our rotation next year.


    It's not unreasonable to think he may win 15+ games in 2015 or a future season, but of course, his health is an important factor.

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Clay Buchholtz Lovers - STAND UP AND BE COUNTED

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Buch has talent. He always has. He's battle injuries and slumps- like lots of players, but he has also had long stretches of pitching very well. For that, a good management team does not just give up on.

    Some posters here would have been happy had Ben just cut him at various times over the past few years. I'm pretty sure some of these same posters would have been or would be complaining when Buch did well for his next team.

    I wouldn't be counting on Buch to be our ace or number 2 guy next year and beyond. I wouldn't count on 28+ starts either. But, I would not give up on Buch, and I would certainly give him every opportunity to be in our rotation next year.

    That does not mean I would not also make sure we have a solid #6 and 7 SP'er in waiting- not just because of Buch's fragility and "inconsistencies", but because other starters like Kelly, de la Rosa, Webster, and Ranaudo also have questions and concerns.

     

    Sox4ever

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement]

    Of course, it would've been clinically insane to have cut him.  I can understand if someone wanted to trade him during one of his manic streaks, but since 2010, even with all the injuries, he is 25 games over .500.  There are only 10 other pitchers 25 games > .500 during that stretch.

    Just for comparison purposes, Lester (since 2010) is 22 over .500 with a 3.59 while Buchholz is 25 over .500 with a 3.61.

    [/QUOTE]


    wow

    You realize that Lester had 78 W's and Clay only 52 including the post season of 2013. That's like a 15 game winner vs a 10 game winner.  Huge difference there.  Next time, try and show the entire picture like total # of W's and innings pitched.  Most of Buck's "over 500" wins game in a season where he missed 3 FULL MONTHS.  Never has Day to Day Clay had 30 GS or 200 IP while Lester does that year in and year out..........Really, do not compare the 2.  Evah...........

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement]

    You need to do some margin analysis.  Lester had an extra 46 starts,  In those extra 46 starts, he was 19-22.  There is a lot of value in never missing a start, but you are overlooking the value of almost never losing a game.

     
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