Clubhouse, Character, Captains, Cancer, and Coverage

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Tropical-Nation. Show Tropical-Nation's posts

    Clubhouse, Character, Captains, Cancer, and Coverage

    So much angst and anguish and unfinished grief to deal with, but here's a couple of points for comment that are gnawing at me:

    Tito's telling comment that when the going gets tough, people's true colors show through, and all the speculation about the clubhouse and certain dividuals being a cancer.....

    So, first: Why is this just coming out now? The Sox have more coverage than  Afghanistan, and we are just now hearing about this? Was it 'I need access, better shut up' or was all the media just blind to what was supposedly going on?

    Second, and way more important is: Where were the leaders if this.....players dissing others, players forming cliques, pitchers pounding back a brew on off days in the clubhouse......is  true? Where was the Captain? Where were the coaches? Where was _______  (fill in the blank)?

    If this is all even partially true, and Tito tried to right the ship w/o support, I don't blame him for heading out while he still has some stomoch lining left....

    But where was the media?

    Where were the leaders?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Clubhouse, Character, Captains, Cancer, and Coverage

    wow great you brought these things up, I was having some real trouble locating any of these subjects anywhere else on the board - way to be on top of it.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Clubhouse, Character, Captains, Cancer, and Coverage

    Where was the media??

    They are not allowed in the clubhouse during the game which likely includes a period before the game and the drinking issue amongst the starters was apparently during games that they were not pitching in.

    It was also reported by Jackie MacMullen that Kevin Youkilis and David Ortiz might have been part of the problem...here's a piece of the article:

    Ellsbury is a 2007 alum and an MVP candidate, a magnificent player with the brightest future of them all. His teammates like and admire him, but he keeps to himself, confides only in Jed Lowrie.

    Can you blame him? His teammate two or three lockers to his left continued, as recently as two months ago, to publicly question Ellsbury's decision to retreat to Arizona last summer for treatment for broken ribs. Kevin Youkilis has always been a hot button. On occasion, his intensity and his honesty were his biggest assets, but not this season. The injured Youkilis showed up every day the way he wanted Ellsbury to, but he turned so sour and cynical that his carping and insistence on inserting himself into other people's affairs turned him into a detriment.

    Then we have Ortiz, who had a redemptive season on the diamond. He has long been credited for galvanizing the Latino players and justifiably so, but he didn't seem to grasp how damaging it was to publicly question whether Alfredo Aceves should be a starter instead of a reliever, and how it undermined both the manager and the general manager at a critical time of the year.

    The entire article can be found at:
    http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7036983/underachieving-boston-red-sox-flunked-chemistry
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from sinjin5000. Show sinjin5000's posts

    Re: Clubhouse, Character, Captains, Cancer, and Coverage

    time for big changes, if a player is part of the problem, he needs to go, does it really make a difference what he makes? 

    We all want the RS to win the WS, and if a players conduct will keep the RS from that goal would it not be best for the team if he was sent packing?

    Everyone knows that Lackey was and is trouble, even francona said so in a round about way. if thats so, what good does it do the team to keep him? Money owed?
    that's not a reason if he's going to kill the team mental outlook. 

    Ortiz? he has as many draw backs as he has pluses, is he a problem? if so, send him packing.

    Youkilus? Again, he has as many draw backs as pluses, a problem for the team? trade him while he has value. 

    Wakefield? time for him to go, 

    there are at least 5 or 6 others that need to go because the value they bring the team is out weighed by their mind set or production.

    Francona lost this team when he allowed the players to dictate what rules they would obey and which they would not. 

    drinking in the club house during games???? what the f.... does that tell you????? it tells me that big changes need to happen if the RS want to win. 

    and I don't care who has to go to accomplish that goal!!! 

     
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Tropical-Nation. Show Tropical-Nation's posts

    Re: Clubhouse, Character, Captains, Cancer, and Coverage

    thanks burito..pieces of this sorry story have appeared around other places, but I'd thought I'd put it together


    and yes I know the media aren't allowed in 'till after a cooling off period.....but NOBODY had the drinking story? The clique story?

    and while  I have tremendous admiration for JackieMac, PeteAbe and Chad Finn,et alia, this 'clubhouse cancer' doesnt come out till AFTER the season? Whats up?

    Inquiring minds want to know!

    and where was Captain Tek ?    part of the problem? Apparently nott part of the solution.....
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from OnDeckCircle. Show OnDeckCircle's posts

    Re: Clubhouse, Character, Captains, Cancer, and Coverage

    How did Varitek lead this team as a captain ?  If he did at all it was a whisper.

    Theo didn't do his homework with Gonzalez otherwise he would have realized he's a whiner, moaner, and bawlbaby.

    Whoever the next captain is, he should not have a hockey "C" on a baseball uniform.

    Whover the next field manager is will need to enforce some rules and create some chemistry along with being a "yes man" to John Henry.     It will be a tough task to find a manager that does it all.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Clubhouse, Character, Captains, Cancer, and Coverage

    I am a retired Army Officer who served 13 months in Iraq. A commander needs to know when to address problem and issues and when to back off. If there were problems in that club house then they needed to be addressed during the year by the commander, or manager and that was Tito. I do not want to hear that the players did not accept my managerial style. Its on Tito and I support him and love what he did for the City of Boston. Not this "keep the beer out of the clubhouse and make everyone watch the games. That is his job as well as the coaches. 

    I also find it hard to believe that Epstein would not support him in his quest to knock the detrimental behaviour off. That is a reflection on Epstein as well.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Clubhouse, Character, Captains, Cancer, and Coverage

    In Response to Re: Clubhouse, Character, Captains, Cancer, and Coverage:
    [QUOTE]time for big changes, if a player is part of the problem, he needs to go, does it really make a difference what he makes?  We all want the RS to win the WS, and if a players conduct will keep the RS from that goal would it not be best for the team if he was sent packing? Everyone knows that Lackey was and is trouble, even francona said so in a round about way. if thats so, what good does it do the team to keep him? Money owed? that's not a reason if he's going to kill the team mental outlook.  Ortiz? he has as many draw backs as he has pluses, is he a problem? if so, send him packing. Youkilus? Again, he has as many draw backs as pluses, a problem for the team? trade him while he has value.  Wakefield? time for him to go,  there are at least 5 or 6 others that need to go because the value they bring the team is out weighed by their mind set or production. Francona lost this team when he allowed the players to dictate what rules they would obey and which they would not.  drinking in the club house during games???? what the f.... does that tell you????? it tells me that big changes need to happen if the RS want to win.  and I don't care who has to go to accomplish that goal!!!   
    Posted by sinjin5000[/QUOTE]WELL SAID !!!  GREAT POST !!   CAN'T WAIT FOR THIS TO UNFOLD !!!
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Clubhouse, Character, Captains, Cancer, and Coverage

    All this b#llshit about "character", "clubhouse cancers", and lack of "chemistry"...(you forgot one 'c' word) is just a crock of baloney.

    Every year this team does not win , we hear about "clubhouse cancers"...it used to be Manny who was a "clubhouse cancer", years ago even Yastrzemski was mentioned as a player who was favored by Tom Yawkey over the black players and all that kind of nonsense. The 2004 team was always looked upon as a tight bunch, but there have been many pro teams in sports that prevailed with lots of infighting and players that supposedly weren't good "team" guys.

    What it all boils down to is :  are these guys in it to win or is it just a job? Are they playing just to collect a paycheck or do they have any pride? Are they playing for personal goals as in Wakefield's 200th etc?

    There needs to be communication between pitchers and catchers, shortstop and secondbase must work closely to turn doubleplays, but if the leftfielder doesn't get along with the closer or the backup catcher doesn't get along with the 4th starter , who gives a damn?

    This team had a pretty good road record which leads me to believe these guys weren't that far underneath each other's skin.

    People are looking for reasons to blame this guy and that guy....but what strikes me is it is very simple. There are too few guys on this team that are hungry to win a champioship, the ones that have multi year contracts are mainly concerned with the money, the ones that don't are playing for personal stats so they can get a multi year contract.

    What's missing is desire to win. It does not require that you like all your teammates to go out and do your job and win stinkin' ballgames. There is very little chance of getting 25- 35 guys who all like each other, but if you could get 20-25 talented , motivated guys who want to win badly enough , you will win...regardless of whether they like each other or not.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

    Re: Clubhouse, Character, Captains, Cancer, and Coverage

    do the math...the highest paid pitcher and position player were the worst at their positions. Theo and his "papi" John Henry did what all disingenuous weasels do; they blamed someone else in an attempt to cover up for their own failings.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Clubhouse, Character, Captains, Cancer, and Coverage

    Well an answer to your second question, which was why no coverage, this was one of Francona's gifts as a manager in this town. To the end he always had his players backs and did the best he could to mitigate the negativity and distractions that come with playing for the RS.

    As for the rest, Francona had built a culture where he treated men like men and for years they rewarded him by acting like it. The magnitude of the problems they had in the pitching staff with so many guys down with injury tested these men and they failed badly.

    Francona took his ownership of their failure as his. But in the long run there are going to be some guys in that group that a really the ones who need to ownership of it.

    The details make for great copy and fun talk on talk radio, blogs and places like BDC. But all we really have to know if that some men weren't worthy of being treated as men. The RS know who they are and will be for those mean and/or the organization to deal with, behind closed doors, which is how men deal with issues, even if they are dealing with men acting like little boys.

    Just my take
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Clubhouse, Character, Captains, Cancer, and Coverage

    Solid take, katz.

    The players are never going to find another one who is quite as supportive of the individual player and insulating from the rabid press...


     
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