C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    I have NP with you and JB thinking it's a bad idea

    but I disagree with you guys calling it a lame idea / discussion

    especially if you consider all the other stuff on this board

    I said I couldn't take the suggestion seriously.  since this may have never happened in the history of BB, then I will continue not to treat this seriously.  Where did Mickey Mantle go after he grew out of SS?  Carl Yaz?  ARod?  Hanley?  Bobby Murcer.

    Playing SS assumes you have speed and an arm.  Why waste 2 of your attributes?  It's like converting a point guard to center because he is a good rebounder.  Or converting Marcus Allen to tackle because he can block, and losing the running and pass receiving.




    in a vacuum that is correct but ponder this scenario, with 3rd seemingly locked up for years to come and the possibility of the OF filled up for years to come (ells, JBJ, brentz) if xander grows out of SS where do you put him? if 1st is the only place open are you going to let the kid toil in AAA just because no SS prospect has ever moved to 1st? or would you move him to 3rd and make middlebrooks jump to 1st...




    LF will be his if he moves off SS

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    Nomar finished his career as a 1B with the Dodgers...After moving from SS to 3B...I'm with JB on this one. If Boegharts is as athletic as he's been advertised and doesn't project to be an everyday SS at the big league level. However, does have the tools to play 3B that's the next logical place to move him. It comes down to projectability and timelines...If his bat is seen as ready for the big leagues sooner than his current defensive abilitys warrant. Once they decide where he projects to play everyday as a big leaguer, then logic suggest they move him to that position with haste. So he can get comfortable playing that position without the glare of expectations playing in the big leagues...Justin Upton is the case study for a kid trying to learn to play the OF at the big league level. My guess is that if Boegharts has as strong of an arm as his position suggest (SS), then he might well project to be a RF at the big league level.

    End of the day, if he continues to play SS in the minors then my guess is that is the position they see him playing once he gets to the big's...

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    I have NP with you and JB thinking it's a bad idea

    but I disagree with you guys calling it a lame idea / discussion

    especially if you consider all the other stuff on this board

    I said I couldn't take the suggestion seriously.  since this may have never happened in the history of BB, then I will continue not to treat this seriously.  Where did Mickey Mantle go after he grew out of SS?  Carl Yaz?  ARod?  Hanley?  Bobby Murcer.

    Playing SS assumes you have speed and an arm.  Why waste 2 of your attributes?  It's like converting a point guard to center because he is a good rebounder.  Or converting Marcus Allen to tackle because he can block, and losing the running and pass receiving.




    George Scott and Ernie Banks.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    George (Boomer) Scott...I think his expanding wasteline had more to do with his move accross the diamond than his defensive ability @ 3rd. Where he was an average at best 3B with softhands, like Youk parlayed his hands into gold glove ability at first.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    I''m back from a day of chasing football games to defend my postion on Bogarts moving from SS to 1st.  And thanks to those of you who took up the cause in my absence.  :-)

    I'm a big fan of looking at something, seeing if it works, and if it does don't mess with it. 

    In this case I see Bogarts as being (defensively) blocked by Iggy.  If Iggy can hit even .220 keeping him there is a no-brainer in my book making no room for Bogarts.   The problem then becomes Bogarts and what to do with him.  Not a bad problem to have, btw. 

    Middlebrooks is "working" at 3rd with adequate defense and better than adequate offense.  Yes, he could be moved to 1st but to what end?  I see it as an unnecessary move.  Do what's necessary and don't disturb what's working.

    Move Bogarts to the OF?  Meh.  Ok.  I just don't see the upside to it when there are already proven OF's who can either be kept or had.  Which leaves 1st base.  As I opined before, I have little to no respect for the defensive capabilites of the average 1st baseman but huge respect for the good ones... like Teix (Ok, Zac? :-) ).  The good ones need to be able to be quick enough to handle shots down the line and at the same time be able to handle balls in the dirt and all around them.  Like a guy who can play 3rd, which is where some people want to move Bogarts.   At the same time it's pretty hard to dispute the argument that his arm is wasted there, but I'll waste that arm if it means keeping his offense in the lineup.

    And with all due respect to whomever said it, the argument of, "Nobody's ever done it before" doesn't do much for me.  I can remember when players never lifted weights because it would make them "tight".  I can remember when nobody had a dedicated closer, and I can remember when sabermetrics was considered a waste of time because scouts could do it all. 

    Things change. Baseball changes with the times.  The fact that "nobody's done it" isn't necessarly a good reason not to be the first because it shows little confidence in your own thinking ability.  Ask Billy Beane.

    And notice that I never advocated throwing him into the fray immediately at 1st.  I said give him time in the Minors to learn to play 1st.  Obviously if for some reason he can't do it - he can't - and he either gets traded as a SS or moved to the outfield.

     

     

     

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    Salty may have some of Teks traits but will never be as productive.  Tek was still better than Salty when he retired which should tell our FO this guy is not our long term solution if he has yet another season without improvement at the plate.



    Some people here talk about Salty as if he's dog meat.  Salty's a better than adequate catcher but he's in a tough spot because Tek is a legend.

    "Never be the guy who follows the guy who's a legend.  Be the guy who follows the guy who follows the guy who's the legend". 

    And I'm not advocating keeping Salty forever.  I just think he deserves a little more respect than he's getting.  But he is replaceable.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to S5's comment:

    I''m back from a day of chasing football games to defend my postion on Bogarts moving from SS to 1st.  And thanks to those of you who took up the cause in my absence.  :-)

    I'm a big fan of looking at something, seeing if it works, and if it does don't mess with it. 

    In this case I see Bogarts as being (defensively) blocked by Iggy.  If Iggy can hit even .220 keeping him there is a no-brainer in my book making no room for Bogarts.   The problem then becomes Bogarts and what to do with him.  Not a bad problem to have, btw. 

    Middlebrooks is "working" at 3rd with adequate defense and better than adequate offense.  Yes, he could be moved to 1st but to what end?  I see it as an unnecessary move.  Do what's necessary and don't disturb what's working.

    Move Bogarts to the OF?  Meh.  Ok.  I just don't see the upside to it when there are already proven OF's who can either be kept or had.  Which leaves 1st base.  As I opined before, I have little to no respect for the defensive capabilites of the average 1st baseman but huge respect for the good ones... like Teix (Ok, Zac? :-) ).  The good ones need to be able to be quick enough to handle shots down the line and at the same time be able to handle balls in the dirt and all around them.  Like a guy who can play 3rd, which is where some people want to move Bogarts.   At the same time it's pretty hard to dispute the argument that his arm is wasted there, but I'll waste that arm if it means keeping his offense in the lineup.

    And with all due respect to whomever said it, the argument of, "Nobody's ever done it before" doesn't do much for me.  I can remember when players never lifted weights because it would make them "tight".  I can remember when nobody had a dedicated closer, and I can remember when sabermetrics was considered a waste of time because scouts could do it all. 

    Things change. Baseball changes with the times.  The fact that "nobody's done it" isn't necessarly a good reason not to be the first because it shows little confidence in your own thinking ability.  Ask Billy Beane.

    And notice that I never advocated throwing him into the fray immediately at 1st.  I said give him time in the Minors to learn to play 1st.  Obviously if for some reason he can't do it - he can't - and he either gets traded as a SS or moved to the outfield.

     



    Nice dissertation S5, but I still am adverse to the idea, despite your indicating that it doesn't matter that it hasn't happened before...with your logic I recommend we move Bogaerts to catcher then...hey if he has the arm to play SS why not catch...if we want to screw up the kid and make his offense suffer by moving him to 1st, let's really screw him up by moving him to catcher...all this to accommodate another banjo hitting SS prospect.

    Regarding your justification of 1B and their abilities, non-athletic types like Fielder, Gonzalez etc can handle the chores at 1B, why, because they don't need to have any range to play that position. Maybe that is the reason most big lummoxes that can hit the ball a mile end up at 1B.

    Sorry but in my personal opinion, moving a kid like Bogaerts to 1B would be an extremely bad idea. Unlless I am mistaken the Sox still have a need to fill the SS position long term...plus I am not a member of the Julio/Jose Iglesias bandwagon.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to S5's comment:

    Hey S5,

    I think your logic is sound if indeed Boegharts is a legit 30 homer 100 RBI middle of the order bat. Short of that then it makes little sense to move him to a position where his bat doesn't project to be among the leaders (Gonzalez, Texiera, Fielder, Puljos, Konerko, Howard, the guy in cincy Joey Vitt?). In the end it's about roster construction and if you don't have a legit power guy manning 1st. Then you then have to find a player in a non-typical power position like catcher to warrant playing a guy like say Victor Martinez there and or have two legit middle of the order bats playing the corner outfield spots or 3B (Longoria).

    To that end given that today we don't have any legit power bats at either corner outfield spots nor at first. With Papi the only legit 30 homer guy on the roster. I'd be more inclined to see Boegharts move to one of the corner outfield spots or stay right where he is and push Iglesias and or Middlebrooks (who's yet to truly prove he's the 3rd baseman of the future)...

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    I have NP with you and JB thinking it's a bad idea

    but I disagree with you guys calling it a lame idea / discussion

    especially if you consider all the other stuff on this board

    I said I couldn't take the suggestion seriously.  since this may have never happened in the history of BB, then I will continue not to treat this seriously.  Where did Mickey Mantle go after he grew out of SS?  Carl Yaz?  ARod?  Hanley?  Bobby Murcer.

    Playing SS assumes you have speed and an arm.  Why waste 2 of your attributes?  It's like converting a point guard to center because he is a good rebounder.  Or converting Marcus Allen to tackle because he can block, and losing the running and pass receiving.




    George Scott and Ernie Banks.



    Banks was 31 when he switched and had knee injuries.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    I have NP with you and JB thinking it's a bad idea

    but I disagree with you guys calling it a lame idea / discussion

    especially if you consider all the other stuff on this board

    I said I couldn't take the suggestion seriously.  since this may have never happened in the history of BB, then I will continue not to treat this seriously.  Where did Mickey Mantle go after he grew out of SS?  Carl Yaz?  ARod?  Hanley?  Bobby Murcer.

    Playing SS assumes you have speed and an arm.  Why waste 2 of your attributes?  It's like converting a point guard to center because he is a good rebounder.  Or converting Marcus Allen to tackle because he can block, and losing the running and pass receiving.




    George Scott and Ernie Banks.



    And I see no evidence Scott ever played SS.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to pinstripezac's comment:

    nice read S5

    '' Tell Bogarts that he’s now playing 1B and send him to Portland/Pawtucket to learn how to do it. ''

    very interesting

    Don't forget 2 of the past Gold Glovers @1B in AL came up as 3rd baseman but moved to 1st because there wasn't an opening at their natural positions in Youk and Teixeira. So no doubt it can be done. Most guys are put at 1b early on because they're not any good anywhere else. Michael Young is another guy who has shown he can play 1b after manning all the other infield positions previously. 

    I have very little respect for the defensive capabilities of the average 1st baseman but HUGE respect for the good ones.  A good first baseman makes everyone in the entire infield look better by strectching out and scooping throws in the dirt.  He also lets the IF's know that they don't have to make a perfect throw - that guy on the other end is going to get to the ball.  Guys like Youk and Agon and Howard are a luxury in that they're good defensively AND they can hit - or at least Youk did in his prime.

    I belive that anyone who can play any of the other IF positions (but most especially 3rd) can play first adequately.  The question is how well can they play.  In Bogart's case he's a proven he can hit in AA and has the tools necessary to hit at any level.  I'll give up a little on D (if necessary)  to have a guy there who can hit.  I also think if you take a player with Bogart's skills and teach him to play 1st he'll be better than adequate AND have a good bat.  I can live with that. 
    And yes, I've seen him play. 




     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to Soxdog67's comment:

    In response to S5's comment:

    I''m back from a day of chasing football games to defend my postion on Bogarts moving from SS to 1st.  And thanks to those of you who took up the cause in my absence.  :-)

    I'm a big fan of looking at something, seeing if it works, and if it does don't mess with it. 

    In this case I see Bogarts as being (defensively) blocked by Iggy.  If Iggy can hit even .220 keeping him there is a no-brainer in my book making no room for Bogarts.   The problem then becomes Bogarts and what to do with him.  Not a bad problem to have, btw. 

    Middlebrooks is "working" at 3rd with adequate defense and better than adequate offense.  Yes, he could be moved to 1st but to what end?  I see it as an unnecessary move.  Do what's necessary and don't disturb what's working.

    Move Bogarts to the OF?  Meh.  Ok.  I just don't see the upside to it when there are already proven OF's who can either be kept or had.  Which leaves 1st base.  As I opined before, I have little to no respect for the defensive capabilites of the average 1st baseman but huge respect for the good ones... like Teix (Ok, Zac? :-) ).  The good ones need to be able to be quick enough to handle shots down the line and at the same time be able to handle balls in the dirt and all around them.  Like a guy who can play 3rd, which is where some people want to move Bogarts.   At the same time it's pretty hard to dispute the argument that his arm is wasted there, but I'll waste that arm if it means keeping his offense in the lineup.

    And with all due respect to whomever said it, the argument of, "Nobody's ever done it before" doesn't do much for me.  I can remember when players never lifted weights because it would make them "tight".  I can remember when nobody had a dedicated closer, and I can remember when sabermetrics was considered a waste of time because scouts could do it all. 

    Things change. Baseball changes with the times.  The fact that "nobody's done it" isn't necessarly a good reason not to be the first because it shows little confidence in your own thinking ability.  Ask Billy Beane.

    And notice that I never advocated throwing him into the fray immediately at 1st.  I said give him time in the Minors to learn to play 1st.  Obviously if for some reason he can't do it - he can't - and he either gets traded as a SS or moved to the outfield.

     



    Nice dissertation S5, but I still am adverse to the idea, despite your indicating that it doesn't matter that it hasn't happened before...with your logic I recommend we move Bogaerts to catcher then...hey if he has the arm to play SS why not catch...if we want to screw up the kid and make his offense suffer by moving him to 1st, let's really screw him up by moving him to catcher...all this to accommodate another banjo hitting SS prospect.

    Regarding your justification of 1B and their abilities, non-athletic types like Fielder, Gonzalez etc can handle the chores at 1B, why, because they don't need to have any range to play that position. Maybe that is the reason most big lummoxes that can hit the ball a mile end up at 1B.

    Sorry but in my personal opinion, moving a kid like Bogaerts to 1B would be an extremely bad idea. Unlless I am mistaken the Sox still have a need to fill the SS position long term...plus I am not a member of the Julio/Jose Iglesias bandwagon.



    care to explain how playing 1st base makes your offense suffer?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to Soxdog67's comment:


    Nice dissertation S5, but I still am adverse to the idea, despite your indicating that it doesn't matter that it hasn't happened before...with your logic I recommend we move Bogaerts to catcher then...hey if he has the arm to play SS why not catch...if we want to screw up the kid and make his offense suffer by moving him to 1st, let's really screw him up by moving him to catcher...all this to accommodate another banjo hitting SS prospect.

    LOL.. Well, ok, but I DO think that's a bit of an overreaction.  Besides, right now the Sox have three guys who can catch and nobody to play first.  If AGon or Youk or anyone with proven 1b skills who can also hit were there I'd never suggest moving Bogarts there but I want to keep his bat in the lineup.

    Regarding your justification of 1B and their abilities, non-athletic types like Fielder, Gonzalez etc can handle the chores at 1B, why, because they don't need to have any range to play that position. Maybe that is the reason most big lummoxes that can hit the ball a mile end up at 1B.

    I agree completely that big lummoxes like Fielder, Gonzalez and Teix (Smirk-Zac) are at 1b because they can't play anyplace else, but I don't see any big lummoxes begging to play for the Sox, especially ones who are cost-controlled. 

    In addition to that, I'm a "defensive baseball" kinda guy and I like having someone at that corner who has range and can keep balls from going between 1st and 2nd or take away doubles heading down the line.   

    Sorry but in my personal opinion, moving a kid like Bogaerts to 1B would be an extremely bad idea. Unlless I am mistaken the Sox still have a need to fill the SS position long term...plus I am not a member of the Julio/Jose Iglesias bandwagon.

    I think this is where our real difference is.  I'm completely on board with giving Iggy the SS hole and telling him it's his until he proves he can't hit.  And if he proves that ... there's still Bogarts in Pawtucket!  :-)

     




     
  14. This post has been removed.

     
  15. This post has been removed.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to pinstripezac's comment:

     

     

    thanks for the bone S5







    EDIT: nevermind ;-)



    I'm surprised how many think the difference/waste of tools

    of having a guy play 1B vs 3B is large

    especially in this case where the team doesn't need a 3B but does need a 1B



    looks like I missed it B4 but I was coming from the view

    said player can't play SS and needs a different position, it seems like

    you're coming from the view the team doesn't need a SS

    that's might be a deal breaker for me

    if the guy can actually play SS



    good job garyhow


    ''Don't forget 2 of the past Gold Glovers @1B in AL came up as 3rd baseman but moved to 1st because there wasn't an opening at their natural positions in Youk and Teixeira. ''



    if 3rd base was open (or looked like it would be open within the next few years) we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. but aside from SS (which he may grow out of or iggy may stick) where else can he play besides the OF or 1st? with guys like JBJ, brentz and unseen guys coming via trade or FA (who may be under control for multiple years) along with the possibility of locking up big numbah two long term it looks as if the OF will be filled up by the time Xander is ML ready. the only other spot that doesn't have a viable ML'er for multiple seasons is 1st base.

    theres no harm in talking about this now. its likely that Xander is a couple years out and a lot can happend before then. but if things stay like they are we may not have a choice but to play him at 1st base

     
  17. This post has been removed.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to SindarinEribor's comment:

    A year ago many thought that Middlebrooks was not ripe enough and look what happened.




    Manny people on here where on the trade Youk band wagon last years. Hey troll two more things, you misspelt Erebor and your shtick is still old.

     
  19. This post has been removed.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    Personally, I think Lavarnway should be handed a 1b mit. Hes not one of these big guys with agility. His offense is going to suffer because of the demands of being a MLB starting catcher.

    Start him in AAA and find someone for 2013 and let Lav get used to the position. if hes ready by ASB, bring him up.

    If Iggy sticks at SS and WMB at 3b, Bogaerts can go to LF and not worry about his size. Just have to learn to play the wall. We could have another 300/30/100 guy out there again for years to come.

    Bogaerts LF JBJ CF and Brentz RF

    WMB 3b Iggy SS Pedey2b Lavarnway 1b

    Im liking that defensive scheme. Good speed defense and power. And the only highly paid one would be Pedey after 2015.

    Then Vasquez or Swihart could be ready come 2015-16

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to SindarinEribor's comment:

    Manny people on here where on the trade Youk band wagon last years. Hey troll two more things, you misspelt Erebor and your shtick is still old.

    I wasn't on the trade Youk bandwagon but wanted him to be delegated to bench sub. I lost my password for BDC and had to spell my moniker differently. I am not a troll. Google the definition and read it slowly and carefully and then you will realize who on the forum that it applies to. My point that Middlebrooks blossomed very quickly and so can others. Comprendo amigo?

     




    You ripped you name from a Wikipedia article and still have a typo.

    In J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium, the Lonely Mountain (Sindarin Erebor) is a mountain in the northeast of Rhovanion. It is also the source of the Celduin River.

    I don't think that Tolkien had you and your campaign in mind when he dreamed up Biblo Baggins and Thorin Oakenshield.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to mef429's comment:

    care to explain how playing 1st base makes your offense suffer?



    A kid that's played SS his whole life can focus on his hitting during BP, however, when trying to acclimate to a new position, like 1B, which requires learning a whole new set of defensive skills, like defensive positioning, holding runners on base, playing bunts, etc, then the focus during batting practice no longer becomes just hitting, it involves taking extra time at the new position.

    Now some guys can adapt to change better than others, but asking a 20 year old to make this type of move would cause confusion especially going from SS to 1B...moving to the OF, like CF would be a much easier transition for a young player.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    'm surprised how many think the difference/waste of tools


    of having a guy play 1B vs 3B is large

    The difference is 3B v SS.  The assumption of 3B to 1B is natural.  the assumption of SS to 1B decidedly less so.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to S5's comment:

    I think this is where our real difference is.  I'm completely on board with giving Iggy the SS hole and telling him it's his until he proves he can't hit.  And if he proves that ... there's still Bogarts in Pawtucket!  :-)

     



    S5, well guess what, if he's down in Pawtucket playing 1B, he won't be replacing Iggy at SS when the kid is hitting .168 in July. Again you can not expect the kid just to jump from one position to another.

    Hypotical situation: If you sold houses for a living and your boss tells you to now move into the accounting department how easy would that transition be?

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: C'mon, FO. Make a decision!

    In response to Soxdog67's comment:

    In response to S5's comment:

    I think this is where our real difference is.  I'm completely on board with giving Iggy the SS hole and telling him it's his until he proves he can't hit.  And if he proves that ... there's still Bogarts in Pawtucket!  :-)

     



    S5, well guess what, if he's down in Pawtucket playing 1B, he won't be replacing Iggy at SS when the kid is hitting .168 in July. Again you can not expect the kid just to jump from one position to another.

    Hypotical situation: If you sold houses for a living and your boss tells you to now move into the accounting department how easy would that transition be?



    I don't buy that its that hard, especially for the athlete he is. Fielding is fielding, especially when you've been doing it most of your life. 1st base isn't a hard position to learn. If papi can play it so could Xander

     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share