Coddling Coma

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    Re: Coddling Coma

    In Response to Coddling Coma:
    [QUOTE]Why does this guy give the more expensive players more leash?  He's like Goober Grady in this regard.  But, instead of ignoring hard data, he looks at their salaries and makes a judegment from that. Wakefield might give up 4 or 5 runs early in a game and he gives him the hook going to the pen way too early. Then, he'll leave a crappy Lackey in and totally blow any chance at stealing a win. He's done this for years.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Has Francona communiated to the media that he primarily uses salary to make his managerial decisions? That would seem to be huge assumption to me...and you know what happens when you ASSUME...you make an:

                                 A S S of U and ME!

    Now I don't always agree with all his decisions, but I think he looks at the big picture while fans focus on the here and now. He leaves pitchers in the game longer than what many fans think should be, but it's because he is trying to save the bullpen arms from being taxed so that one bad game doesn't become compounded into multiple bad games because of bullpen overuse.

    I'm not sure what is going on with Lackey but he is really pathetic right now and Wakefield is what he is...but I believe Francona leaves these guys at the expense of one game so that he'll have a full bullpen available for the Yankee series this weekend.


     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    y
     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    In Response to Coddling Coma:
    [QUOTE]Why does this guy give the more expensive players more leash?  He's like Goober Grady in this regard.  But, instead of ignoring hard data, he looks at their salaries and makes a judegment from that. Wakefield might give up 4 or 5 runs early in a game and he gives him the hook going to the pen way too early. Then, he'll leave a crappy Lackey in and totally blow any chance at stealing a win. He's done this for years.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    What is funny about the example in your post is that, ironically, on this very board, Francona has been excoriated time and time again for always sticking with Wake waaay too long and coddling him.  Guess he's dammed if he do, dammed if he don't.
     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    In Response to Re: Coddling Coma:
    [QUOTE]Well, Wake is paid 4 millioin and a 5th starter type.  Lackey is paid 17 million and not supposed to be a 5th starter. The difference is, he seems to stick far longer with the big ego players who make the big money and then he'll quickly pull his 5th starter in the 4th or 5th inning when Boston is down by a few runs. He doesn't apply the same logic to each pitcher. He gives the big money pitchers more leash.  Does he not?  He does the same thing with Dice Bust.  Rememeber the game Bust had where he allowed 8 runs in 2 innings?  He could have used Wake earlier, but he continued with Bust who clearly had absolutely nothing. Last night is a perfect example.   Francona has had so much to work with here for so long being backed with a huge payroll, etc, but it seems to work against his management style at times.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Actually Dice-K is the 2nd lowest paid starter in the rotation, only Buchholz earns less and thats because of his time of service, nothing else.

    Your whole argument regarding Francona managing by salary is an assumption and inaccurate. But if that's the way YOU want to see it, then to each his own!

    I guess that logic applies to the everyday line-up too since he seems to stick with Crawford,  Pedroia, Youkilis, Drew and Varitek the same way.
     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    In Response to Re: Coddling Coma:
    [QUOTE]Well, Wake is paid 4 millioin and a 5th starter type.  Lackey is paid 17 million and not supposed to be a 5th starter. The difference is, he seems to stick far longer with the big ego players who make the big money and then he'll quickly pull his 5th starter in the 4th or 5th inning when Boston is down by a few runs. He doesn't apply the same logic to each pitcher. He gives the big money pitchers more leash.  Does he not?  He does the same thing with Dice Bust.  Rememeber the game Bust had where he allowed 8 runs in 2 innings?  He could have used Wake earlier, but he continued with Bust who clearly had absolutely nothing. Last night is a perfect example.   Francona has had so much to work with here for so long being backed with a huge payroll, etc, but it seems to work against his management style at times.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Well being that Wake makes relative peanuts, and Francona pretty much regularly gets lambasted for sticking with him too long, I have trouble seeing your arguement.  I actually don't think he has any such bias at all.  Did he stick with lackey too long?  Yes.  Is it because he gets paid alot?  No.  he made that mistake in an effort to try and save his bullpen.  Period.
     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    And may I add that while Lackey did not hold the deficit to 1 run, based on this season's early returns it is not a lock that we wouldn't have seen a "Coma goes to bullpen too soon and coddles this over paid players by pulling them out too soon" threads.

    It is a classic case of never acknowledging the other team beat your team and 20-20 vision in hindsight that the manager made the wrong decision as opposed to the player did not get the job done.
     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    In Response to Re: Coddling Coma:
    [QUOTE]I am tired of that argument (the pen) too.  Saving the pen, saving the pen, etc. Really? Are they hurt? It's like when he kept trotting out Mike Timlin with inherited runners in 2005 and coudln't figure out why Timlin was so bad with that.  Just made no sense. So, we disagree. I think it absolutely has to do with their salary and the fact he's a player's manager.  He doesn't want to show up Theo. Also, Dice Bust cost a total of 18 million per year, even if he is paid out at 9 per.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    we're not arguing about the use of the pen.  I made no statement either way on that.  I am merely pointing out that he often sticks with Wakefield too long as well.  So, its hard to see payroll as a deciding factor on who he has a short leash with.
     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    In Response to Re: Coddling Coma:
    [QUOTE]It's hard to tell or he has a pattern of this?  I don't understand how this is deniable. Wasn't it last year when Ortiz was whining about being benched for facing lefties and Coma never benched him for a spell to get his head straight? Ortiz went public and Coma never sat him.  He's a players' manager and the players who are the big names on the team seem to get more of a leash. I can give more examples if you'd like. Look, I am sorry, but there is way, way, way too much talent here for this poor start. I think the team needs a wake up call, including Coma's approach here.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    ortiz is kind of a bad example since he ended up having an excellent year with 30+/100+ and one of the best OPS in the entire majors after May.  Sticking with David was clearly the good call, even when everyone was clamoring for his benching.  
     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    Look guys...no matter which of you is right, the bottom line is that Coma CANNOT manage the Pitching Staff properly. So...if our new pitching coach, Curt Young, does not step up real soon, we're going down. Last night was embarassing...AGAIN.
     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    The OP is absolute nonsense.  He left Lackey in there because, having played two extra inning games in a row, he was worried about oversuing the bullpen and wanted Lackey to go as far as possible.  That's also why Wakefield was the reliever who was brought in--to save guys like Albers, Aceves, Bard, Okajima, and Hill.  Papelbon wasn't going in until the game was tied or the Sox were ahead. 

    I happen to disagree with his decision because I thought he should have brought in a better guy than Wakefield in the 7th inning--and brought him in sooner that when the score was 7-3. 

    But in Francona's defense, Lackey did in fact get the first two guys in the 7th out and flown through the 5th and 6th innings pretty easily.  Even when thing started getting dicey, he was no doubt say, "c'mon John, you only need to get one more out, for crying out loud."  It never happened, of course, but I understand his reasoning.

    And his reasoning had nothing to do with deferring to Lackey and his salary and everything to do with safeguarding an possibley overworked bullpen. 

    My disagreement with Francona is that he had a 4-3 game and should have gone for the win (even the the Sox were behind by 1) by using someone other than Wakefield and used him before Lackey threw the game away--probably at the point when Lackey had men on first and second, but the score still 4-3. 
     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    I would not call what Wake makes 5 million dollars a year peanuts.
     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    In Response to Re: Coddling Coma:
    [QUOTE]I would not call what Wake makes 5 million dollars a year peanuts.
    Posted by AL34[/QUOTE]

    potato salad?

    no but seriously, he doesnt make 5.  He is making 1.5 this year (the second year of a 2 year/5 mil contract).  Still, I hear you, not peanuts or potato salad to real people.  But, when compared to the ludicrous sums being paid to guys like Lackey, it is well short of a full-course meal.
     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    I would agree if you were to say he frequently mismanages the Pen simply by over using it.

    ex: The other night Hill was pitching fine gets his 5th out then gets yanked for Aceves, he who balked up the joint the night before, who proceeds to load the based before getting the final out of the inning.  Why the F**k do you pull Hill?  Give him (Hill) a chance to get the 3rd out and give Aceves the night off to clear his head. 

    Maybe I'm missing something but it seems kinda simple to me, leave Hill in until he shows he needs to be pulled.

     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    In Response to Re: Coddling Coma:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Coddling Coma : That's the other thing. He claims he wants to rest the pen, but in reality he gets a hard on for certain relievers.  Timlin, Tavares, Okajima, etc. Now, apparently, Aceves is that guy. Obviously, Oki was great until he blew up last year, but the Coma defenders, who will run through a wall to defend him, can't have it both ways.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Don't want it both ways RWTK.  I don't care to say Francona is the best there is or anything like that.  And I don't care to argue that Francona hasn't made mistakes with his staff.  I merely would like to point out that managing a pitching staff, and a bullpen in particular, is very tricky and subject to the unpredicatble performance of its members.  Show me the manager who always gets it right with pitching changes and bullpen management.  he doesn't exist.  I've seen the great Joe Torre, Mike Scoscia, and even the supposeddly untouchable Tony LaRussa completely wear out pens in years when the old reliables weren't reliables and/or the rotation couldn't get Quality Starts on a consistent basis.  Francona bashers like yourself like to act as if it should be easy to manage a pitching staff and he is just too stupid to do take on that task.  But, it is the hardest thing a manager has to do, and ALL managers, when their pitching staffs are not performing well, make a ton of mistakes IN GAME.  A reliable rotation and bullpen make a manager lookl good.  An unrealiable rotation and bullpen make a manager look bad.  Any Manager.
     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    Don't get me started on how Girardi has handled his pitching staff in recent days. I know it's hard to believe but he is worse than your Francona is.
     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    In Response to Re: Coddling Coma:
    [QUOTE]Don't get me started on how Girardi has handled his pitching staff in recent days. I know it's hard to believe but he is worse than your Francona is.
    Posted by Girardi-Inept[/QUOTE]



    here you go pike


    just 4U














    now click onto the door and let me know if you need more









     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    I think there are 2 issues.

    The higher the salary, the more important the player, at least in theory.  Lacky's long term success is more important to the team than Wakefield's success.  Therefore, Lacky is given the opportunity to work out whatever problems he is going through.  Same with someone like Crawford.  2 years ago, that was the case with JD Drew.  Since JD Drew is in the last year of a long contract, his leash may be shorter.  Wakefield is the mop up guy.  He has a 1 year contract. His failure has a small impact in the Red Sox long term.  Lacky has a longer, more expensive contract and therefore his failure has a higher cost to the Red Sox.

    The other issue is more along the lines of how certain types of free agents are treated.  Certain players, like Coco Crisp, had short contracts.  When a player is offered a 3 year deal in the middle salary range, I think the manager gives him more leeway.  He is given more opportunity to work out problems at the plate.  The reason being is if the Red Sox are going to be quick to bench struggling players like Coco, then players like Coco might think twice about coming to Boston when they are free agents.

    Plus, players are hired for a job.  They need to be given the opportunity to be successful.

     
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    Re: Coddling Coma

    There are two big problems with the way managers use bullpens now compared to how they used to use bullpens years back.

    First the 100 pitch ceiling , which is ludicrous. Pitchers have more arm problems now then they did in the early 70's when pitch counts weren't an issue.

    Second, middle relievers are almost extinct, because no one wants to do it. The job does not pay as well as being a starter or a closer. Even the set up man has more respect. The term 'long' or 'middle' reliever is almost an insult. It is like being a 2nd class major leaguer.

    So when a manager "pulls the plug" on a starter in the early innings , he is almost guaranteed to be bringing in a pitcher who is either more inept than the guy he is removing or a guy with no experience in that role, or a guy with no desire to become a "long reliever."

    These factors make it a better decision to stick with the starter and hope he overcomes a bad start and "settles in."  Without good middle relief , the temptation is to go to the "late inning" guys too soon, and when you do this they get burned out as these guys are not conditioned to pitch more than an inning or two , and then they need a day to recover.

    Thus the value of a Julian Tavares or a Ramiro Mendoza goes unnoticed.
     
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