Colon?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from mfymfy. Show mfymfy's posts

    Re: Colon?

    When you object to the statement that Buchholz is a solid #3, the inference is that you are objecting to his ability, not his health.

    Camelwalk seems to both agree with you that Buchholz is a "terrific young starter" and considers him a #4 starter at best.---slomag
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Don't want to get you all worked up again about your boy, but if Buch was on a team like the Giants, he might be a #5 or a long man out of the pen.

    It seems what's important to you is that Yankee fans throw roses at Buch. He's " a terrific young starter" but so are a lot of guys, including Hughes. Every team in baseball has one---some have two, three, and four. 

    As for Tex's non-All Star #s, pretty impressive, wouldn't you say?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Colon?

    The Yankees have been very fortunate with their low risk pick ups of Colon and Garcia.   As a Red Sox fan, I don't like it one bit.  People might start mistaking Cashman for a genius or something.  ;-)    Until/unless all the accusations towards Colon are proven, it sounds like sour grapes to me.  Tip your cap to the Yankees for some good pick ups in lieu of Lee and Pettite.
     
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from cglassanos. Show cglassanos's posts

    Re: Colon?

    I think Colon looks great.  Sharp action, fair velocity, big cajones.  Kudos to the Yanks and, to be honest, kudos to Colon for resurecting his career even if it involves some voodoo-horseblood-spanish fly-onlylegalintheDR "therapy".

    If only Dice-K could learn the art of "therapy" and giving his all.  Or Lack-ey, the Lord Mouthbreather himself.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Re: Colon?:
    When you object to the statement that Buchholz is a solid #3, the inference is that you are objecting to his ability, not his health. Camelwalk seems to both agree with you that Buchholz is a "terrific young starter" and considers him a #4 starter at best.---slomag ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't want to get you all worked up again about your boy, but if Buch was on a team like the Giants, he might be a #5 or a long man out of the pen. It seems what's important to you is that Yankee fans throw roses at Buch. He's " a terrific young starter" but so are a lot of guys, including Hughes. Every team in baseball has one---some have two, three, and four.  As for Tex's non-All Star #s, pretty impressive, wouldn't you say?
    Posted by mfymfy

    The only thing I care about on this forum is that you support your statements with facts.  If you just throw out statements, particularly derogatory statements about Red Sox players, you should be able to support them.  To date, there's no support for the idea that Hughes is a "terrific young starter".  Maybe that will change by season's end, but so far there is no support for anything better than "average".  Yes, I can back this up with his career stats if this is a point of debate.

    The Giants are an anomoly - if they are the standard by which all other teams are judged, then a lot of rotations across MLB start with #5 starters.

    Tex has very impressive non-all star numbers.  My prediction was based on the strength of his competition.  I have a very similar prediction for the Yankees - they will be one of the 4 best teams in the AL, but will fail to make the post-season.


     
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    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Re: Colon?:
    In Response to Re: Colon? : Yeah, that's great. WAR is very flawed, how else can you account for lackey having a positive WAR this season. Also, what would agone's WAR be if he was still in the NL playing for the padres? Not to mention that WAR has nothing to do with getting voted to the AS game. Clueless once again.
    Posted by --The----Babe----


    Yes, WAR is critically flawed.  We're much better off taking whatever comes out of Babe's butt as gospel.

    Milwaukee and Cincinnati aren't baseball Meccas, so I guess your argument centers around the idea that Gonzalez would have worse numbers than Fielder and Votto if he had stayed with the Padres?  I know better than to ask you to support this.


     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from --The----Babe----. Show --The----Babe----'s posts

    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Re: Colon?:
    In Response to Re: Colon? : Yes, WAR is critically flawed.  We're much better off taking whatever comes out of Babe's butt as gospel. Milwaukee and Cincinnati aren't baseball Meccas, so I guess your argument centers around the idea that Gonzalez would have worse numbers than Fielder and Votto if he had stayed with the Padres?  I know better than to ask you to support this.

    Posted by slomag

    Did he have better numbers than either of them last year?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Re: Colon?:
    In Response to Re: Colon? : It seemed like that you placed equal emphasis on WHIP and ERA, and IMO it wasn't clear. Here is what you said Garcia's WHIP is career average, as will his ERA be by the end of the season. Colon's is the best of his career.  By quite a bit.    That's not "couldn't be more clear" in my book. Regardless, ERA or no ERA, your  By quite a bit.    statement is a little over the top, especially when you consider the come down in hitting since (i.e, WHIP+). The guy won the CYA in 2005, and you act like it's not even there. As far as Hughes is concerned, I didn't say that; I said I didn't know what to expect.  Go back and reread my post. In any case, Nova's a nice Plan B.
    Posted by nhsteven

    Yes, WHIP is the subject of the first sentence, and therefore the object of possession of the second.  Never mind - if you were going to own your mistake you would have done it by now.

    2005 was six years ago.  It was also the last time Colon pitched a full season.  Do you have WHIP+ numbers?  

    The difference between 1.055 and 1.159 is pretty significant.  It's like comparing a .273 hitter to a .300 hitter.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Re: Colon?:
    In Response to Re: Colon? : Yes, WHIP is the subject of the first sentence, and therefore the object of possession of the second.  Never mind - if you were going to own your mistake you would have done it by now. 2005 was six years ago.  It was also the last time Colon pitched a full season.  Do you have WHIP+ numbers?   The difference between 1.055 and 1.159 is pretty significant.  It's like comparing a .273 hitter to a .300 hitter.
    Posted by slomag


    Yes, WHIP is the subject of the first sentence, and therefore the object of possession of the second.  Never mind - if you were going to own your mistake you would have done it by now. 

    I'll grant you this is a gray area; but that's the point, it's a gray area; so clarity is not exactly the 1st thing that would come to mind.

    2005 was six years ago.  It was also the last time Colon pitched a full season. 

    Yes, but it was in the context of your original post, where you were talking about Colon's career in totality. Be consistent. (Something you didn't do with that other guy when you challenged him to find a comment that fit his criteria, otherwise he's a hypocrit, and then when he did, you did an about face)

    Do you have WHIP+ numbers?   The difference between 1.055 and 1.159 is pretty significant.  It's like comparing a .273 hitter to a .300 hitter.

    Do you always talk out of both corners of your mouth? If 2005 was 6 yrs ago, wasn't 2002 9 yrs ago? Regardless, one of the reason his WHIP is good is because he's hardly walking anybody. And, let''s look at those 2 seasons closer:

    Yr     WHIP   BAA   WAR
    2002 1.159  .245    3.9
    2011 1.055  .227    2.2

    This is not commensurate with your analogy that shows your 27 POINT difference; so your analogy is a little bit of a stretch.  Also, keep in mind 2002 was in the middle of the hitter yrs. And just for fun, I included WAR, since you seem to like that stat (which BTW, was 4.4 in 2005)

    I am still looking for the WHIP + #s.



     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from fenwayjack2. Show fenwayjack2's posts

    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Colon?:
    This guy has to be pumping something into that arm that died five years ago.  Where is the "honest Mr. Selig" when you need him :)
    Posted by craze4sox


    HGH for sure.  His doctor has a history of doing this but denies using the same technique in Colon's case. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Colon?

    I could not find it for 2011; here are the other yrs:

    Player

    Team

    T

    IP
    /162

    WHIP+

    Colon, Bartolo

    1997 Cleveland Indians

    R

    95

    89

    Colon, Bartolo

    1998 Cleveland Indians

    R

    204

    103

    Colon, Bartolo

    1999 Cleveland Indians

    R

    205

    117

    Colon, Bartolo

    2000 Cleveland Indians

    R

    188

    107

    Colon, Bartolo

    2001 Cleveland Indians

    R

    223

    100

    Colon, Bartolo

    2002 Montreal Expos

    R

    234

    111

    Colon, Bartolo

    2002 Cleveland Indians

    R

    234

    112

    Colon, Bartolo

    2002 Montreal Expos

    R

    117

    104

    Colon, Bartolo

    2002 Cleveland Indians

    R

    117

    119

    Colon, Bartolo

    2003 Chicago White Sox

    R

    242

    116

    Colon, Bartolo

    2004 Anaheim Angels

    R

    209

    103

    Colon, Bartolo

    2005 Anaheim Angels

    R

    223

    118

    Colon, Bartolo

    2006 Los Angeles Angels

    R

    57

    97

    Colon, Bartolo

    2007 Los Angeles Angels

    R

    99

    87

    Colon, Bartolo

    2008 Boston Red Sox

    R

    39

    100

    Colon, Bartolo

    2009 Chicago White Sox

    R

    62

    97

     
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Re: Colon?:
    In Response to Re: Colon? : Yes, WHIP is the subject of the first sentence, and therefore the object of possession of the second.  Never mind - if you were going to own your mistake you would have done it by now.  I'll grant you this is a gray area; but that's the point, it's a gray area; so clarity is not exactly the 1st thing that would come to mind. 2005 was six years ago.  It was also the last time Colon pitched a full season.  Yes, but it was in the context of your original post, where you were talking about Colon's career in totality . Be consistent. (Something you didn't do with that other guy when you challenged him to find a comment that fit his criteria, otherwise he's a hypocrit, and then when he did, you did an about face) Do you have WHIP+ numbers?   The difference between 1.055 and 1.159 is pretty significant.  It's like comparing a .273 hitter to a .300 hitter. Do you always talk out of both corners of your mouth? If 2005 was 6 yrs ago, wasn't 2002 9 yrs ago? Regardless, one of the reason his WHIP is good is because he's hardly walking anybody. And, let''s look at those 2 seasons closer: Yr     WHIP   BAA   WAR 2002 1.159  .245    3.9 2011 1.055  .227    2.2 This is not commensurate with your analogy that shows your 27 POINT difference; so your analogy is a little bit of a stretch.  Also, keep in mind 2002 was in the middle of the hitter yrs. And just for fun, I included WAR, since you seem to like that stat (which BTW, was 4.4 in 2005) I am still looking for the WHIP + #s.
    Posted by nhsteven

    You've completely lost me. From a WHIP perspective Colon is having the best year of his life, whether you look at his career averages or his next best season, which was 2005, not 2002.  His WHIP in 2002 was 1.239.

    Another poster suggested I do not offer support for my posts.  I asked him to support that statement, and he said he couldn't be bothered.  You don't see the hypocrisy in that?

    WAR is an aggregate statistic, so of course he hasn't reached the totals of some of his best years yet.



     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Colon?

    1) Your 1.159 was from Colon's partial 2002 Season with Cleveland, from what I've surmised. Perhaps you referred to 2005, where he had the same WHIP (rounded to 2 decimal pts)

    2) You're right about WAR being an aggregate measured; I stand corrected, and apologize.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Re: Colon?:
    1) Your 1.159 was from Colon's partial 2002 Season with Cleveland, from what I've surmised. 2) You're right about WAR being an aggregate measured; I stand corrected.
    Posted by nhsteven


    Colon's WHIP in 2005 was 1.159

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Colon?

    See my previous updated post. I was wrong.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mfymfy. Show mfymfy's posts

    Re: Colon?

     To date, there's no support for the idea that Hughes is a "terrific young starter".  Maybe that will change by season's end, but so far there is no support for anything better than "average".  ---slomag
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    There were no average starters who went 18-8 last year. If my Aunt Shirley went 18-8 in the bigs last year, I'd say she was "a terrific middle aged starter", and who could argue the fact?.

    An aside, slomag. It's OK for other teams to have good guys and even terrific guys, even the MFYs, who have many of them. 

    I also know you wish the season was going differently right now. I'm sure it's nothing you wanted or expected. But it is what it is. You're trailing the MFYs again (who have many terrific guys). Ouch!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Colon?

    Another poster suggested I do not offer support for my posts.  I asked him to support that statement, and he said he couldn't be bothered.  You don't see the hypocrisy in that?


    I don't recall that; perhaps we're talking about 2 different incidents. Therefore, I'll take your word
    for it, and yes, it's hypocrisy.
      
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Re: Colon?:
     To date, there's no support for the idea that Hughes is a "terrific young starter".  Maybe that will change by season's end, but so far there is no support for anything better than "average".  ---slomag ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There were no average starters who went 18-8 last year. If my Aunt Shirley went 18-8 in the bigs last year, I'd say she was "a terrific middle aged starter", and who could argue the fact?. An aside, slomag. It's OK for other teams to have good guys and even terrific guys, even the MFYs, who have many of them.  I also know you wish the season was going differently right now. I'm sure it's nothing you wanted or expected. But it is what it is. You're trailing the MFYs again (who have many terrific guys). Ouch!
    Posted by mfymfy

    There was one - his name was Phil Hughes, and he had an ERA+ of 102.  He was great in the first half, but poor in the second, and wound up about league average, despite his W/L record.

    Sabathia, Rivera, Teixeira & Cano are all terrific.  Phil Hughes is not (or at least has not earned the label).


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mfymfy. Show mfymfy's posts

    Re: Colon?

    The only thing I care about on this forum is that you support your statements with facts----slomag
    the (Yankees) will be one of the 4 best teams in the AL, but will fail to make the post-season-----slomag
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ok, I'll bite. Give us the facts.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Re: Colon?:
    In Response to Re: Colon? : There was one - his name was Phil Hughes, and he had an ERA+ of 102.  He was great in the first half, but poor in the second, and wound up about league average, despite his W/L record. Sabathia, Rivera, Teixeira & Cano are all terrific.  Phil Hughes is not (or at least has not earned the label).
    Posted by slomag


    Bucholz may have been a one time wonder.....is he any where near last year?  The fact is he is not.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Re: Colon?:
    The only thing I care about on this forum is that you support your statements with facts----slomag the (Yankees) will be one of the 4 best teams in the AL, but will fail to make the post-season-----slomag ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, I'll bite. Give us the facts.
    Posted by mfymfy


    Here's a link to the 'anybody worried about the Yankees' thread.  I've supported my predictions there, and it would be a good thread to keep alive for the year, so one of us can rub the other's nose in it :)

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Re: Colon?:
    See my previous updated post. I was wrong.
    Posted by nhsteven


    I appreciate it.  Few posters have the integrity to acknowledge their mistakes.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Colon?

    Sure
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from LS350. Show LS350's posts

    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Re: Colon?:
    In Response to Re: Colon? : Here's a link to the 'anybody worried about the Yankees' thread.  I've supported my predictions there, and it would be a good thread to keep alive for the year, so one of us can rub the other's nose in it :) http://www.boston.com/community/forums.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aSportsForum%3a81df60f3-70ee-4ca3-9336-8cf2c0a8301aDiscussion%3aafd6ebaa-d4b7-4d3c-86a7-a2e0645d89ac&plckCurrentPage=3
    Posted by slomag


    posted at 6/22/2011 5:14 PM EDT
    www.boston.com/community/persona.html?UID=de1161dccbb90fcbddb485544ef5870a&plckUserId=de1161dccbb90fcbddb485544ef5870a">
    Posts: 1066
    First: 8/31/2009
    Last: 7/5/2011
    The Yankees will fade, finish third behind the Sox and Rays, and miss the post-season.  Despite the early results, the Yankees do not have the pitching to contend, and it will catch up with them.  Brian Gordon pitches tonight.  He's 32 years old, was drafted as an outfielder and has pitched 9 1/3 innings in his career.

    You're right, you can't argue with those "facts."

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from LS350. Show LS350's posts

    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Re: Colon?:
    In Response to Re: Colon? : Here's a link to the 'anybody worried about the Yankees' thread.  I've supported my predictions there, and it would be a good thread to keep alive for the year, so one of us can rub the other's nose in it :) http://www.boston.com/community/forums.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aSportsForum%3a81df60f3-70ee-4ca3-9336-8cf2c0a8301aDiscussion%3aafd6ebaa-d4b7-4d3c-86a7-a2e0645d89ac&plckCurrentPage=3
    Posted by slomag


    Posts: 1066
    First: 8/31/2009
    Last: 7/5/2011
    In Response to www.boston.com/community/forums.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aSportsForum%3a81df60f3-70ee-4ca3-9336-8cf2c0a8301aDiscussion%3aafd6ebaa-d4b7-4d3c-86a7-a2e0645d89ac&plckFindPostKey=Cat:SportsForum:81df60f3-70ee-4ca3-9336-8cf2c0a8301aDiscussion:afd6ebaa-d4b7-4d3c-86a7-a2e0645d89acPost:d21b4a3b-f688-4bba-bf96-71f35de1fda1">Re: Anyone on Red Sox: On the front burner worried about the Yankees?:
    The man is 32 - he should be dominating the IL.  You know who else is dominating the IL?  Hideki Okajima, Scott Atchison & until recently Brandon Duckworth.  I wouldn't do cartwheels having any of them in my rotation.

    At the end of the day, the Yankees are about a .550 team, and the Rays are a little better than that, with a much better rotation.  It's not wishful thinking - believe me, I would rather face the Yankees than Price, Shields & Hellickson in the post-season.

    Those "facts" are unassailable.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Colon?

    In Response to Re: Colon?:
    In Response to Re: Colon? : slomag Posts: 1066 First: 8/31/2009 Last: 7/5/2011 In Response to www.boston.com/community/forums.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aSportsForum%3a81df60f3-70ee-4ca3-9336-8cf2c0a8301aDiscussion%3aafd6ebaa-d4b7-4d3c-86a7-a2e0645d89ac&plckFindPostKey=Cat:SportsForum:81df60f3-70ee-4ca3-9336-8cf2c0a8301aDiscussion:afd6ebaa-d4b7-4d3c-86a7-a2e0645d89acPost:d21b4a3b-f688-4bba-bf96-71f35de1fda1 " /> Re: Anyone on Red Sox: On the front burner worried about the Yankees? : The man is 32 - he should be dominating the IL.  You know who else is dominating the IL?  Hideki Okajima, Scott Atchison & until recently Brandon Duckworth.  I wouldn't do cartwheels having any of them in my rotation. At the end of the day, the Yankees are about a .550 team, and the Rays are a little better than that, with a much better rotation.   It's not wishful thinking - believe me, I would rather face the Yankees than Price, Shields & Hellickson in the post-season. Those "facts" are unassailable.
    Posted by LS350

    A partial list of the facts that followed:
    1) It's unlikely that Garcia and Colon continue their success.  This is a fact, given their age - it's unlikely that one 36+ year-old pitcher will have the best season of his career, let alone two pitchers with a combined 1 full healthy season in the past 5 years.
    2) The Yankees (of the three) have the most difficult schedule late in the season, including a west-coast swing in September.
    3) Tampa Bay finally has Longoria and Niemann at full strength, and they are in the position to deal BJ Upton, if necessary as Desmond Jennings can fill in.
    4) The Yankees' record after the all-star break in 2010 was barely over .500.
    5) Phil Hughes has had mixed results even in his re-hab assignments, and it's not clear that he will help the club when he returns.

    If you reply to this, please copy it into the other thread.


     
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