'Coma Bashers Read This...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: 'Coma Bashers Read This...

    He was as bad here as he was in Philly only difference was we had the talent to win it all in 04 and 07
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

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      I always love how critism of Francona's questionable decisions is "Bashing" !! I will say this, whoever the new manager is, if he pulls the same crap Tito did, he will be called on it too. I will wager on that !! The Funny thing that keeps running through my mind today is how many of the Supporter's even knew who Francona was in 2003? The guy was on Basball's scrapheap !! The Sox made Francona, Francona didn't make the Sox !!
    Posted by ALaGatorAL


    An interesting point. I liked Tito, but I do think it was time for a change. He lost this team, we could all see that. The most interesting thing about these last two days is Theo saying what we fans have seen for the past four years. Since winning in 2007, this team acts complacent and entitled, and conditioning has been an obvious problem. It took this disaster to wake the organization up--officially--to the slow cancer we fans have seen for some time. It started showing up in 08, and got progressively worse each year, until it exploded this month. I'm not surprised it happened overall as much as I'm surprised it happened so dramatically and painfully. I'm almost to the point of saying I'm glad this collapse happened, because I think it will help the team in the long run. Red Sox haters who are laughing it up now should check their rapture, this was exactly what this team needed. The other team isnt going to lay down on the field because the mighty Sox are in town, you have to FIGHT. I posted that threes years ago, and Im glad the organization is now officially recognizing the truth. Surely Tito isnt to blame for all of the cancer, but his inability to stop it this year and its steady progression to fatality shows "a new voice is needed", whether it's his fault or not. Which statement, by the way, is also a well deserved slap in the face to the players. It just goes to show that not all of us fans are stupid, some of us can see exactly what the problem is. We need dirt dogs and bloody socks, and we need to get back to our roots. Passion, fire, commitment, and a night in night out trench warfare mentality that will not accept losing. In other words, Dustin Pedroia X 25.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

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    P.S. Tito, we still love you,thanks for 04, 07. Good luck wherever you go--except when you play us.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALaGatorAL. Show ALaGatorAL's posts

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    P.S. Tito, we still love you,thanks for 04, 07. Good luck wherever you go--except when you play us.
    Posted by TheExaminer



    PS... We won't have to worry when he plays us !!
     
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    In Response to Re: 'Coma Bashers Read This... : PS... We won't have to worry when he plays us !!
    Posted by ALaGatorAL


    LOL Good one Al!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

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    My guess is you will bash our next manager as much as Tito.
    Posted by moonslav59


    moon - After reading all of this garbage, it's a shame what happened. Tito was not backed by anyone in management other than Theo.

    And you know what? Theo will resign by the time the World Series ends.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

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    ADG, it's typical baseball and upper management business reaction everywhere: blame the Plebeians.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from promise4you. Show promise4you's posts

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    Moon, I have never bashed Tito. But I was never a fan. You know yourself that it is easier to dump one guy than the whole team. unfortunately and I said this on another thread, the cancer is still there. We will know who that cancer is when the hot stove league comes around and people start vanishing from the 40 man roster. I personally cannot wait, im betting there will be some big surprises to the folks on these boards!
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

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    Call me naive, but I think Tito was done. After listening to everyone I think the events were some what like this:

    The Trio wanted to meet with Francona and Hale and get their take on what the heck happened in September. The Trio did not come into that room either unconditionally committed to Francona OR his firing. But they wanted answers and it wasn't a happy occasion.

    Tito came into the room and while we will never know how much of it was that Francona sensed that the Trio were not unconditionally committed to him. But he was in the frame of mind that his methods with this group of players had run their course. He was a beaten man.

    This appears to have resulted in the Trio asking Tito to take the weekend to think about it. Francona got in his car, came back 45 minutes later and said his mind set wasn't changing. He appears on the surface to be a heart broken man. He feels in many ways frustrated that his beliefs on how men should be tteated failed so badly with some players in this group. I don't think that was spin.

    So while the end result is the normal conclusion to a huge failure in baseball, with the field manager taking the bullet for the collective organizational failings this journey appears to have had more texture to it than most.

    And to the end Terry Francona acquitted himself as a man of extraordinary character and depth. It may be a long time, regardless of success on the field before we see a man like him as the RS manager again.

    Just my takes
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

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      I always love how critism of Francona's questionable decisions is "Bashing" !! I will say this, whoever the new manager is, if he pulls the same crap Tito did, he will be called on it too. I will wager on that !! The Funny thing that keeps running through my mind today is how many of the Supporter's even knew who Francona was in 2003? The guy was on Basball's scrapheap !! The Sox made Francona, Francona didn't make the Sox !!
    Posted by ALaGatorAL

    I'm not singling you out, but no manager is ever going to do every move any other individual would do. It's the nature of the business. managers try to mix it up to keep the other teams guessing. Most "bashers" here are almost always in hindsight. They bash Tito for taking out a starter too early, then the next game too late. 

    I have had serious philosophical differences with Tito over the years. I am not a Tito apologist. Among my issues are:
    1) Fixation with L-R-L line-ups.
    2) Loyalty to vets to the point that we dont have the best team on the field possible (ie Crawford should ride the bench vs LHPs.)
    3) Locking players into line-up slots, then worse, when a player subs for that person, they bat in the same slot no matter how bad they are.
    4) Not letting starters fo 120-130 pitches vs crucial opponents.
    5) Jerking Wake around and hardly ever using top relievers in his games.
    6) Changing his startegy at the end of the season and playoffs (ie not starting VTek) and always going with the best offesnive team.
    7) Not paying enough attention to L-R splits or pitcher to batter splits.
    8) Keeping insanely incapable 3rd base coaches in their positions more than once (again, the extreme loyalty issue).
    9) Poor choice of pitching coaches.

    However, complaining about in game moves after the fact is quite frankly a joke to me. I'm not saying he hasn't made mistakes. Every manager does. 

    Tell me who you think is the best in game manager, and then go to that team's blog sites and you'll read the same thing we read about Tito everyday.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

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      I always love how critism of Francona's questionable decisions is "Bashing" !! I will say this, whoever the new manager is, if he pulls the same crap Tito did, he will be called on it too. I will wager on that !! The Funny thing that keeps running through my mind today is how many of the Supporter's even knew who Francona was in 2003? The guy was on Basball's scrapheap !! The Sox made Francona, Francona didn't make the Sox !!
    Posted by ALaGatorAL



    When it is chronic and done every day, it is bashing. We all know the names of the forum regulars who came here with a smile on their face and tongue in cheek and made it their passion to bash Tito daily. You are one of them but then you bashed everything Red Sox.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

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    In Response to Re: 'Coma Bashers Read This...:
    In Response to Re: 'Coma Bashers Read This... : I'm not singling you out, but no manager is ever going to do every move any other individual would do. It's the nature of the business. managers try to mix it up to keep the other teams guessing. Most "bashers" here are almost always in hindsight. They bash Tito for taking out a starter too early, then the next game too late.  I have had serious philosophical differences with Tito over the years. I am not a Tito apologist. Among my issues are: 1) Fixation with L-R-L line-ups. 2) Loyalty to vets to the point that we dont have the best team on the field possible (ie Crawford should ride the bench vs LHPs.) 3) Locking players into line-up slots, then worse, when a player subs for that person, they bat in the same slot no matter how bad they are. 4) Not letting starters fo 120-130 pitches vs crucial opponents. 5) Jerking Wake around and hardly ever using top relievers in his games. 6) Changing his startegy at the end of the season and playoffs (ie not starting VTek) and always going with the best offesnive team. 7) Not paying enough attention to L-R splits or pitcher to batter splits. 8) Keeping insanely incapable 3rd base coaches in their positions more than once (again, the extreme loyalty issue). 9) Poor choice of pitching coaches. However, complaining about in game moves after the fact is quite frankly a joke to me. I'm not saying he hasn't made mistakes. Every manager does.  Tell me who you think is the best in game manager, and then go to that team's blog sites and you'll read the same thing we read about Tito everyday.
    Posted by moonslav59
    Good post. Tito's W-L record here over time will speak volumes about his body of work on balance. I will say he probably gets a pass on the pitching coaches. Small sample set (only 2 were ever selected on his watch Farrell and Young) because he inherited Wallace (who has a RS WS ring BTW).

    The in game stuff is a joke to me too. It struck me as quite ironic in while trying to shake things up Tito tried almost everything all the different viewpoints on BDC suggest.

    Stayed with a starter deep into pitch count (the few times they weren't getting hammered), moved Crawford up to the 2 spot, tried gettting three innings from Bard and Papelbon, going with hot hands against splits... I could go on.

    But in the end the definition of an in game mistake 90% of the time is the player's failure to succeed.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from sportsbozo1. Show sportsbozo1's posts

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    In Response to Re: 'Coma Bashers Read This... : An interesting point. I liked Tito, but I do think it was time for a change. He lost this team, we could all see that. The most interesting thing about these last two days is Theo saying what we fans have seen for the past four years. Since winning in 2007, this team acts complacent and entitled, and conditioning has been an obvious problem. It took this disaster to wake the organization up--officially--to the slow cancer we fans have seen for some time. It started showing up in 08, and got progressively worse each year, until it exploded this month. I'm not surprised it happened overall as much as I'm surprised it happened so dramatically and painfully. I'm almost to the point of saying I'm glad this collapse happened, because I think it will help the team in the long run. Red Sox haters who are laughing it up now should check their rapture, this was exactly what this team needed. The other team isnt going to lay down on the field because the mighty Sox are in town, you have to FIGHT. I posted that threes years ago, and Im glad the organization is now officially recognizing the truth. Surely Tito isnt to blame for all of the cancer, but his inability to stop it this year and its steady progression to fatality shows "a new voice is needed", whether it's his fault or not. Which statement, by the way, is also a well deserved slap in the face to the players. It just goes to show that not all of us fans are stupid, some of us can see exactly what the problem is. We need dirt dogs and bloody socks, and we need to get back to our roots. Passion, fire, commitment, and a night in night out trench warfare mentality that will not accept losing. In other words, Dustin Pedroia X 25.
    Posted by TheExaminer
    Agreed if the Sox had 24 more Pedey's they would never need to search for a new manager because they would never lose!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

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     1) Fixation with L-R-L line-ups.   As long as the players have stark splits I think he was right to fixate on it.  The next manager will probably do the same b/c management will hire that kind of guy.   
     
    2) Loyalty to vets to the point that we dont have the best team on the field possible (ie Crawford should ride the bench vs LHPs.) True (Lowell)
     
    3) Locking players into line-up slots, then worse, when a player subs for that person, they bat in the same slot no matter how bad they are.  I think he mostly did that if it was a late scratch and unavoidable.

     4) Not letting starters fo 120-130 pitches vs crucial opponents.  

      It depends on the effectiveness after 100 pitches, when Pedro was getting older he lost effectiveness after 90 pitches or soI tried to look up the numbers but couldn't find them.


    8) Keeping insanely incapable 3rd base coaches in their positions more than once (again, the extreme loyalty issue).

    Totally agree, I know a couple teams had more thrown out but many were not even close this year.

     However, complaining about in game moves after the fact is quite frankly a joke to me. I'm not saying he hasn't made mistakes. Every manager does. 

    Totally agree again. There is direct correlation between how stupid a poster is and how often he or she complain about marginal in game decisions.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

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    In Response to Re: 'Coma Bashers Read This...:
    Moon, I have never bashed Tito. But I was never a fan. You know yourself that it is easier to dump one guy than the whole team. unfortunately and I said this on another thread, the cancer is still there. We will know who that cancer is when the hot stove league comes around and people start vanishing from the 40 man roster. I personally cannot wait, im betting there will be some big surprises to the folks on these boards!
    Posted by promise4you

    I agree. We will know a lot more after this winter.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

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    Call me naive, but I think Tito was done. After listening to everyone I think the events were some what like this: The Trio wanted to meet with Francona and Hale and get their take on what the heck happened in September. The Trio did not come into that room either unconditionally committed to Francona OR his firing. But they wanted answers and it wasn't a happy occasion. Tito came into the room and while we will never know how much of it was that Francona sensed that the Trio were not unconditionally committed to him. But he was in the frame of mind that his methods with this group of players had run their course. He was a beaten man. This appears to have resulted in the Trio asking Tito to take the weekend to think about it. Francona got in his car, came back 45 minutes later and said his mind set wasn't changing. He appears on the surface to be a heart broken man. He feels in many ways frustrated that his beliefs on how men should be tteated failed so badly with some players in this group. I don't think that was spin. So while the end result is the normal conclusion to a huge failure in baseball, with the field manager taking the bullet for the collective organizational failings this journey appears to have had more texture to it than most. And to the end Terry Francona acquitted himself as a man of extraordinary character and depth. It may be a long time, regardless of success on the field before we see a man like him as the RS manager again. Just my takes
    Posted by fivekatz

    Great take katz, and highly plausible.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

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    1) Fixation with L-R-L line-ups.   As long as the players have stark splits I think he was right to fixate on it.  The next manager will probably do the same b/c management will hire that kind of guy.   

    If all things are close to equal then yes, L-R-L has value, but that was not the case in many circumstances. I don't want someone who goes to the other extreme, but I do think Tito made some line-up mistakes. It's my opinion. I have never pretended to be a better manager than Tito. I liked Tito, but I had my differences.
     
    2) Loyalty to vets to the point that we dont have the best team on the field possible (ie Crawford should ride the bench vs LHPs.) True (Lowell)
    He'd have kept playing Drew if he was healthy. He stuck with Lackey way too long. 
     
    3) Locking players into line-up slots, then worse, when a player subs for that person, they bat in the same slot no matter how bad they are.  I think he mostly did that if it was a late scratch and unavoidable.
    But why? Plus, we have several player swith huge L-R disparities, yet they stayed rooted in their slots no matter what.

     4) Not letting starters fo 120-130 pitches vs crucial opponents.  

      It depends on the effectiveness after 100 pitches, when Pedro was getting older he lost effectiveness after 90 pitches or so.  I tried to look up the numbers but couldn't find them.

    Look at the games where our starters went a longer than normal distance. it was raely in a big game. I agree that some pitchers can't go deep in counts.


    8) Keeping insanely incapable 3rd base coaches in their positions more than once (again, the extreme loyalty issue). 

    Totally agreeI know a couple teams had more thrown out but many were not even close this year.

    It's been a joke. It hasn't been just one guy, but nearly all of them have been bad.

     However, complaining about in game moves after the fact is quite frankly a joke to me. I'm not saying he hasn't made mistakes. Every manager does. 

    Totally agree againThere is direct correlation between how stupid a poster is and how often he or she complain about marginal in game decisions.

    Beeching about a manager's in game decisions is as old as baseball itself. It's hard to stay objective about it. Unless someone documents the call they'd have made before the results occur, which never happens even on the game threads, then complaining after the fatc is hollow.

    (This is one reason I avoid the game threads: everyone is hindsight bashing. The other reason is it is full of tiny sample size diffinitive judgements on players. Someone can be batting .400, but if they strike out 3 times in today's game, they are "bums".)

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

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     I think he mostly did that if it was a late scratch and unavoidable.
    But why?

    I think the line-up card was already in.  That happened when Ortiz was scratched and Lowire PH at clean up, late this season.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from walterjohnson07. Show walterjohnson07's posts

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    I think Katz is spot-on. Whether he's actually right, we can't know for sure...but it was a nice and appropriate tribute to Terry.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

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    Listen (if that concept is even in your consciousness) all you die hard Tito supporters, I can't wait until this debate is over and done with, since the best that those of us who are glad to see him go could ever hope for with you guys is to "agree to disagree". But I am more than happy to promise, right now, that I will not take issue with the new manager unless he babies those over-indulged superstars the same way Tito did. If we get someone who demands accountability (primarily in conditioning) and runs a tight ship, I promise not to complain even if they finish last! So quit acting like the High and Mighty by assuming you know what any of us is going to do. Tito is a nice guy, must have had some good moments during his 8 years but simply was not getting the job done, as a manager of the players' attitudes, or as a field marshall. Now I challenge you to go find someone else to bash than those of us who apparently saw the same thing that management did and decided it was time for a change.  
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from william93063. Show william93063's posts

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    In Response to Re: 'Coma Bashers Read This...:
    This is why i gave up on the Sox's in 67. The team never knows what it really has until they make changes to make people feel justified for what did not happen. Tito was and is one of the best managers in the game. For Boston to not give him a contract to stay on. Shame on you.
    Posted by vertmont


    On the money!
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from promise4you. Show promise4you's posts

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    In Response to Re: 'Coma Bashers Read This...:
    In Response to Re: 'Coma Bashers Read This... : I agree. We will know a lot more after this winter.
    Posted by moonslav59


    WHEN TO HOLD'EM WHEN TO FOLD'EM, fans will be shcccked when the obvious comes to light! There were factions created by things we cannot believe. People may find there is a superstar that that does not fit in because of his beliefs and this in fact caused the divide! And soon he will deny this!
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

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     I think he mostly did that if it was a late scratch and unavoidable. But why? I think the line-up card was already in.  That happened when Ortiz was scratched and Lowire PH at clean up, late this season.
    Posted by tom-uk

    As far as I know, that was the only time the scratch was after a player was put into the line-up. The other times were known in enough time to make an adjustment. He chose not to.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

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    In Response to Re: 'Coma Bashers Read This...:
    Listen (if that concept is even in your consciousness) all you die hard Tito supporters, I can't wait until this debate is over and done with, since the best that those of us who are glad to see him go could ever hope for with you guys is to "agree to disagree". But I am more than happy to promise, right now, that I will not take issue with the new manager unless he babies those over-indulged superstars the same way Tito did. If we get someone who demands accountability (primarily in conditioning) and runs a tight ship, I promise not to complain even if they finish last! So quit acting like the High and Mighty by assuming you know what any of us is going to do. Tito is a nice guy, must have had some good moments during his 8 years but simply was not getting the job done, as a manager of the players' attitudes, or as a field marshall. Now I challenge you to go find someone else to bash than those of us who apparently saw the same thing that management did and decided it was time for a change.  
    Posted by pschuller


    I do know what some of you will do, because it is human nature.

    I never said the change wasn't warranted or wanted by me. My point is that the next manager will be bashed just as much no matter who he is or what choices he will make. "Unless he babies" the stars? Every manager does that, so I'm surer tthan ever you will be back bashing the next guy.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

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    In Response to Re: 'Coma Bashers Read This...:
    He was as bad here as he was in Philly only difference was we had the talent to win it all in 04 and 07
    Posted by tcal2-


    You are 100% correct. They were only able to overcome his ineptness in 2 of the 8 years he was here. No team should have to, continously, win in spite of their manager. The Sox teams have been trying to overcome his nonsense for 8 years. It's a testament to the 2004 and the 2007 teams that they were able to accomplish what they did without any in game help from the manager. If some other team hires him, they might be successful if they have a loaded roster, but if it's just an average roster, there is no chance they can succeed with him as manager.
     
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