Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In a few days, Justin Masterson (8-7, 2.56 ERA, 1.176 WHIP) returns to Fenway to pitch against his old team.
     

    With Buch lost to us for the season, I am now experiencing many, many tics recalling the Justin-Masterson-and-others-for-Victor-Martinez deal.

    Buyer's remorse? Yes. V-Mart wasn't a total bust but he came at high cost. And he is now gone.

    Is this a case of 20/20 hindsight being 100% accurate? Guilty as charged.

    Stupid to think about it? Yes.

    Not worth the effort to rehash the past? Uh, huh.

    No crying in baseball?  Absolutely!

    But still it hurts. And I didn't think it would.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    Not that useless threads are all that uncommon here.

    But this one has many redeeming qualities.
     
    1st the poster is a respected person....200 points.

    2nd, the subject is not repeated by 6 others....100 points.

    3rd, it's a point worth discussing , as all the people who absolutely had to have Victor's bat in our lineup ( forget that we already have a DH and Martinez is not very well acquainted with any type fielding glove) cried and cried then celebrated this colossal coup by Master Theo, but Victor proved an over-rated, over-priced commodity....150 points.

    You total 450 points and are up for honors as thread of the day!

    But there is a bright side to all this. Cleveland , a team that is constantly rebuilding and uses the moneyball strategy of mediocrity, will soon be parting with many of their biggest stars again as they attempt to retool for the next decade 2020-30. So we may have a shot at getting Masterson back in the not-to-distant future!
     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    Manny was replaced by Jason Bay, who was let go for free agency.
    Victor was acquired for Justin Masterson, was let go for free agency.
    Victor Martinez and Jason Bay tried to help the team win and did help the team get as far as they could. But I don't like it when players are acquired, added who aren't in long-term plans. I don't like rentals, don't like that a guy can be given up without getting something to replace that person. Overall, Bay and Martinez did their jobs as Sox.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]Manny was replaced by Jason Bay, who was let go for free agency. Victor was acquired for Justin Masterson, was let go for free agency. Victor Martinez and Jason Bay tried to help the team win and did help the team get as far as they could. But I don't like it when players are acquired, added who aren't in long-term plans. I don't like rentals, don't like that a guy can be given up without getting something to replace that person. Overall, Bay and Martinez did their jobs as Sox.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    I don't think of either Bay or Martinez as rentals.  We had each of those players for 1 1/2.   They were both brought here at decent costs to fulfill needs that the team had at the time.  Both filled their roles very well, but unfortunately it wasn't enough to bring us the big prize.

    The Red Sox did get those every valuable draft picks when each of those guys left.

    I love Masterson and was very sad to see him go.  However, IIRC, at the time that Theo traded him, he was not expected to pitch as well as he is now.  It would be nice to have him back, but I would do that trade all over again.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from thewags. Show thewags's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about. : I don't think of either Bay or Martinez as rentals.  We had each of those players for 1 1/2.   They were both brought here at decent costs to fulfill needs that the team had at the time.  Both filled their roles very well, but unfortunately it wasn't enough to bring us the big prize. The Red Sox did get those every valuable draft picks when each of those guys left. I love Masterson and was very sad to see him go.  However, IIRC, at the time that Theo traded him, he was not expected to pitch as well as he is now.  It would be nice to have him back, but I would do that trade all over again.
    Posted by RedSoxKimmi[/QUOTE]


    Yeah, given the information we had at the time and the view of Masterson, who was showing no evidence thast he would be as good as he is now, I think it was the right trade to make... however, I still wish we had a do-over, considering our rotational woes!

    alas.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    It doesn't bother me at all that Masterson is gone. In the year and two months that the Sox had Martinez, he was excellent for the Sox. Masterson STUNK for the Indians. 

    The Sox were trying to win a pennant and the team was better because of that trade. THat they didn't win was because of other issues -- injuries -- that Masterson wouldn't have helped. It was a crpshoot that Masterson would develop like this.

    And assuming Beltre money was used to eventually sign A-Gon to a long-term contract, the Sox got draft picks for Martinez and used that money on Crawford. This year, Masterson, so far, is outperforming Crawford, but  I wouldn't put money on it that it will continue to be that way in the ensuing years.

    And here is the big point.

    Teams make trades to solve their own needs. The Sox had an immediate need, while the Indians were looking more long term. So why is it so wrong that a trade can't work out for both teams.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.


    In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]Not that useless threads are all that uncommon here. But this one has many redeeming qualities.   1st the poster is a respected person....200 points. 2nd, the subject is not repeated by 6 others....100 points. 3rd, it's a point worth discussing , as all the people who absolutely had to have Victor's bat in our lineup ( forget that we already have a DH and Martinez is not very well acquainted with any type fielding glove) cried and cried then celebrated this colossal coup by Master Theo, but Victor proved an over-rated, over-priced commodity....150 points. You total 450 points and are up for honors as thread of the day! But there is a bright side to all this. Cleveland , a team that is constantly rebuilding and uses the moneyball strategy of mediocrity, will soon be parting with many of their biggest stars again as they attempt to retool for the next decade 2020-30. So we may have a shot at getting Masterson back in the not-to-distant future!
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]

    You are too kind with your props, Zilla.  Thanks.

    And you are right.  Masterson may yet return to us.  Ellis Burks did and we got ourselves a WS title out of it.

    Always room for hope.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]Manny was replaced by Jason Bay, who was let go for free agency. Victor was acquired for Justin Masterson, was let go for free agency. Victor Martinez and Jason Bay tried to help the team win and did help the team get as far as they could. But I don't like it when players are acquired, added who aren't in long-term plans. I don't like rentals, don't like that a guy can be given up without getting something to replace that person. Overall, Bay and Martinez did their jobs as Sox.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Yo, Cater. Sounds like a string of begats from the Bible.

    Your chronology is correct, sir.  And I agree that Bay and Martinez did their jobs, but it seems they both left some of their best work at Fenway.

    Curious.  Kind of like some old, lost loves, I wish them well as they move on with their lives, but I don't miss them.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]There was a reason for that trade, but no one can remember it.
    Posted by bobbysu[/QUOTE]

    It was the myth of the declining skills of Varitek, I think. So we know how it turned out. Tek is still with us and catching every fourth day. Martinez is in Detroit arguing with Brad Penny - another of Theo's reclamation projects.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about. : I don't think of either Bay or Martinez as rentals.  We had each of those players for 1 1/2.   They were both brought here at decent costs to fulfill needs that the team had at the time.  Both filled their roles very well, but unfortunately it wasn't enough to bring us the big prize. The Red Sox did get those every valuable draft picks when each of those guys left. I love Masterson and was very sad to see him go.  However, IIRC, at the time that Theo traded him, he was not expected to pitch as well as he is now.  It would be nice to have him back, but I would do that trade all over again.
    Posted by RedSoxKimmi[/QUOTE]

    Kimmi, I sort of had the same process - no one thought he would turn out to have the season he is having now, and truth to tell, he may not have another season like this again.

    But something in the back of my addled mind kept thinking, as it happens every time we let a player go in a trade or a roster move, that he may come back to bite the Red Sox on their collective keisters.

    And my fears have become realized, therefore, in his return to Fenway in a few days.

    I had no such fears about Jason Bay or Victor Martinez, btw. 

    Sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about. : It was the myth of the declining skills of Varitek, I think. So we know how it turned out. Tek is still with us and catching every fourth day. Martinez is in Detroit arguing with Brad Penny - another of Theo's reclamation projects.
    Posted by summerof67[/QUOTE]

    It wasn't a myth. Tek couldn't and isn't catching every day. The reason he's so effective this year (and last year berfore he was hurt) is because he's not getting beat down catching four of five games.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]It doesn't bother me at all that Masterson is gone. In the year and two months that the Sox had Martinez, he was excellent for the Sox. Masterson STUNK for the Indians.  The Sox were trying to win a pennant and the team was better because of that trade. THat they didn't win was because of other issues -- injuries -- that Masterson wouldn't have helped. It was a crpshoot that Masterson would develop like this. And assuming Beltre money was used to eventually sign A-Gon to a long-term contract, the Sox got draft picks for Martinez and used that money on Crawford. This year, Masterson, so far, is outperforming Crawford, but  I wouldn't put money on it that it will continue to be that way in the ensuing years. And here is the big point. Teams make trades to solve their own needs. The Sox had an immediate need, while the Indians were looking more long term. So why is it so wrong that a trade can't work out for both teams.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    Roy, my head agrees and my heart doesn't.

    So it's my bad, I guess.  Masterson may never be any good again, but right now, there is a pang of regret.

    Which will disappear pretty soon, since I have short-term memory loss.  Which is a blessing when you are a Red Sox fan.

    I also have Irish Alzheimer's disease, which means I forget everything except the grudges.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about. : Yeah, given the information we had at the time and the view of Masterson, who was showing no evidence thast he would be as good as he is now, I think it was the right trade to make... however, I still wish we had a do-over, considering our rotational woes! alas.
    Posted by thewags[/QUOTE]

    Agreed. Alas.

    And alack.



     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In Response to Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]In a few days, Justin Masterson (8-7, 2.56 ERA, 1.176 WHIP) returns to Fenway to pitch against his old team.   With Buch lost to us for the season, I am now experiencing many, many tics recalling the Justin-Masterson-and-others-for-Victor-Martinez deal. Buyer's remorse? Yes. V-Mart wasn't a total bust but he came at high cost. And he is now gone. Is this a case of 20/20 hindsight being 100% accurate? Guilty as charged. Stupid to think about it? Yes. Not worth the effort to rehash the past? Uh, huh. No crying in baseball?  Absolutely! But still it hurts. And I didn't think it would.
    Posted by summerof67[/QUOTE]

    I'm with you on all of this, and also guilty as charged.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about. : Roy, my head agrees and my heart doesn't. So it's my bad, I guess.  Masterson may never be any good again, but right now, there is a pang of regret. Which will disappear pretty soon, since I have short-term memory loss.  Which is a blessing when you are a Red Sox fan. I also have Irish Alzheimer's disease, which means I forget everything except the grudges.
    Posted by summerof67[/QUOTE]

    Fair enough.

    As long as the player the Sox get did what he was supposed to do, I don't get too bent out of shape at what the players given up do -- for the most part.

    I don't want an Anderson-Bagwell situation, which I thought was a bad trade at the time, even though I wouldn't have predicted Bagwell going on to do what he did. (I remember thinking back then that Bagwell was a prospect I didn't want to give up.)

    On the other hand, I had no problem with the Boddicker-Anderson/Schilling trade. Boddicker was an excellent starter for 2 1/2 years ('88-'90) and was key in the Sox winning two division titles. It took years for the Anderson and Schilling to finally do anything (at least '92).
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from fenwayjack2. Show fenwayjack2's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In Response to Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]In a few days, Justin Masterson (8-7, 2.56 ERA, 1.176 WHIP) returns to Fenway to pitch against his old team.   With Buch lost to us for the season, I am now experiencing many, many tics recalling the Justin-Masterson-and-others-for-Victor-Martinez deal. Buyer's remorse? Yes. V-Mart wasn't a total bust but he came at high cost. And he is now gone. Is this a case of 20/20 hindsight being 100% accurate? Guilty as charged. Stupid to think about it? Yes. Not worth the effort to rehash the past? Uh, huh. No crying in baseball?  Absolutely! But still it hurts. And I didn't think it would.
    Posted by summerof67[/QUOTE]

    I never expected the Sox to let Martinez walk.  Especially since it was not going to cost a fortune to keep him. 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from rickerd2. Show rickerd2's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    It's impossible to say that Masterson would be the pitcher he is now if he stayed with the Sox.  He got chances to start that the Sox couldn't give over the time he's been gone, so that may have allowed him to become today's Masterson.

    A coach in Cleveland may have been the main reason for his improvements that coaches in Boston just hadn't noticed.  It could be the system they have in Cleveland that helped him.  Maybe he likes the atmosphere, or the look of the city, or a multitude of other things.

    It is what it is, and we can't make it any different.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from rickerd2. Show rickerd2's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    It's like the whole Bagwell trade.  What if he didn't make an adjustment that he might have made in Houston that made him so good?  He could've been a failed prosect in Boston.

    Sometimes a particular team is able to unlock a player's potential.  Just because a team drafts a player doesn't mean that player will become what the team envisioned.  Babe Ruth was primarily a pitcher with Boston, right?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from lukebusy. Show lukebusy's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    I am still ticked off about the Sparky Lyle for Danny Cater deal!!!!!
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about. : Fair enough. As long as the player the Sox get did what he was supposed to do, I don't get too bent out of shape at what the players given up do -- for the most part. I don't want an Anderson-Bagwell situation, which I thought was a bad trade at the time, even though I wouldn't have predicted Bagwell going on to do what he did. (I remember thinking back then that Bagwell was a prospect I didn't want to give up.) On the other hand, I had no problem with the Boddicker-Anderson/Schilling trade. Boddicker was an excellent starter for 2 1/2 years ('88-'90) and was key in the Sox winning two division titles. It took years for the Anderson and Schilling to finally do anything (at least '92).
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    Correct, Roy, especially about Boddicker. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    rickerd: Yeah, I hear that. Especially about Babe Ruth.  converting him to an outfielder was just a waste of time, wasn't it. NOT!

    Luke: Oh, dude. Give it up and give it over.  THe Mariners called the other day and said they wanted a Mulligan on the Heathcliff Slocum deal.

    Theo wanted to accommodate them, but Mr.Peabody's Wayback Machine was broken. 


    End of story.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]It doesn't bother me at all that Masterson is gone. In the year and two months that the Sox had Martinez, he was excellent for the Sox. Masterson STUNK for the Indians.  The Sox were trying to win a pennant and the team was better because of that trade. THat they didn't win was because of other issues -- injuries -- that Masterson wouldn't have helped. It was a crpshoot that Masterson would develop like this. And assuming Beltre money was used to eventually sign A-Gon to a long-term contract, the Sox got draft picks for Martinez and used that money on Crawford. This year, Masterson, so far, is outperforming Crawford, but  I wouldn't put money on it that it will continue to be that way in the ensuing years. And here is the big point. Teams make trades to solve their own needs. The Sox had an immediate need, while the Indians were looking more long term. So why is it so wrong that a trade can't work out for both teams.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    Good points.....unfotunately the Sox have sgined neither of the guys they drafted with Vmart Compensation picks....but they may before the next draft. Either way, at they time the VMart trade was a good one....
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SleeStack1. Show SleeStack1's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    How often do BUYERS at the trade deadline make out better LONG TERM?

    If one is ignorant of the general trend with this, there is probably little anybody can do to help them.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.

    In Response to Re: Completely useless thread that ruminates on something that no one can do anything about.:
    [QUOTE]I am still ticked off about the Sparky Lyle for Danny Cater deal!!!!!
    Posted by lukebusy[/QUOTE]

    Who bothers you most , Danny Cater the player or Danny Cater the  BDC poster?
     
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