Carlos Silva
Shea Hillenbrand
Julian Tavarez
Carl Everett
Vicente Padilla
Manny Ramirez
All 6 made the "30 worst clubhouse cancers" list, according to BleacherReport.com
Concerned?
-
Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 11:59 AM EST
- parhunter1
- Posts: 3695
- First: 1/2/2006
- Last: 2/26/2012
What do these 6 Red Sox players (former and current) share in common:
Carlos Silva
Shea Hillenbrand
Julian Tavarez -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 12:08 PM EST
- SpacemanEephus
- Posts: 10506
- First: 6/6/2008
- Last: 5/23/2013
In Response to Concerned?:What do these 6 Red Sox players (former and current) share in common: Carlos Silva Shea Hillenbrand Julian Tavarez Carl Everett Vicente Padilla Manny Ramirez All 6 made the "30 worst clubhouse cancers" list, according to BleacherReport.com
Posted by parhunter1Nope. Silva and Padilla aren't getting anywhere near the opening day roster. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 12:30 PM EST
- parhunter1
- Posts: 3695
- First: 1/2/2006
- Last: 2/26/2012
I hope you are right. But then, why sign them? If not for the belief that one or both might actually help the team and fill the 5th or 6th starter slot, what was it?
I was a little dismayed that 6 of the 30 on the all-time list had Red Sox ties. I believe no other team had that dubious distinction. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 12:35 PM EST
- ThefourBs
- Posts: 2113
- First: 9/12/2011
- Last: 5/23/2013
In Response to Re: Concerned?:I hope you are right. But then, why sign them? If not for the belief that one or both might actually help the team and fill the 5th or 6th starter slot, what was it? I was a little dismayed that 6 of the 30 on the all-time list had Red Sox ties. I believe no other team had that dubious distinction.
Posted by parhunter1
They do believe they may be able to help the team. But, their contracts aren't so burdonsome that they can't be booted off the team plane at any time.
Maybe they'll land first.
It's on Silva and Padilla to prove they're not the insufferable ***** that everone thinks they are.
If they can't, "See ya". -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 12:40 PM EST
- parhunter1
- Posts: 3695
- First: 1/2/2006
- Last: 2/26/2012
I would expect them to be on their best behavior until they get the Major League deal. Then, the "see ya" becomes much more burdensome. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 1:06 PM EST
- ThefourBs
- Posts: 2113
- First: 9/12/2011
- Last: 5/23/2013
In Response to Re: Concerned?:I would expect them to be on their best behavior until they get the Major League deal. Then, the "see ya" becomes much more burdensome.
Posted by parhunter1
I'm not sure your average hot-head has that much control.
-
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 1:08 PM EST
- moonslav59
- Posts: 34512
- First: 9/27/2005
- Last: 5/23/2013
I think these two are much more humbled at this point in their careers. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 1:23 PM EST
- parhunter1
- Posts: 3695
- First: 1/2/2006
- Last: 2/26/2012
In full disclosure, I supported both signings at the time they were made. I like the idea of finding diamonds in the rough, and resurrection projects. But as I have ruminated on it, I do not see much wisdom in bringing in known clubhouse "cancers" onto a team which had problems with clubhouse chemistry which you are trying to correct. And I think Bobby V is NOT the manager to suffer fools gladly.
It does make me think that Ben is far more the moneyball guy that John Henry tried to hire back in 2003 when he offered Beane the most money ever offered a GM in the history of sports than Theo was/is. It seems that Ben's entire decision-making process in regards to Silva and Padilla was calculated around runs, specifically their ability to prevent them, than around the intangibles that so many scouts and FO types try to assess in making deals. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 5:30 PM EST
- Chilliwings
- Posts: 2707
- First: 5/30/2008
- Last: 8/8/2012
In Response to Re: Concerned?:In full disclosure, I supported both signings at the time they were made. I like the idea of finding diamonds in the rough, and resurrection projects. But as I have ruminated on it, I do not see much wisdom in bringing in known clubhouse "cancers" onto a team which had problems with clubhouse chemistry which you are trying to correct. And I think Bobby V is NOT the manager to suffer fools gladly. It does make me think that Ben is far more the moneyball guy that John Henry tried to hire back in 2003 when he offered Beane the most money ever offered a GM in the history of sports than Theo was/is. It seems that Ben's entire decision-making process in regards to Silva and Padilla was calculated around runs, specifically their ability to prevent them, than around the intangibles that so many scouts and FO types try to assess in making deals.
Posted by parhunter1
Par, if that's true I don't have a big problem with it. For example, I think the hand-wringing in the press and among fans about Chickengate is pathetic and embarrassing.
The press knew about it when times were good and chose to ignore it until times were bad and it would sell papers.... and the fans going on about it don't really have a clue about what "it" was other than what they read in the papers or on the web.
It's mostly manageable and I'm sure largely is..... "behind closed doors" as is appropriate. Manny's behaviour was largely sub-optimal for years, but as long it wasn't terrible (i.e. give up on the field) and he massively produced everybody inside and outside the Sox looked away.
If these guys on minor league, short money don't realise how lucky they are and behave well, out the door they'll go. Very low risk. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 5:49 PM EST
- hill55
- Posts: 7694
- First: 1/14/2006
- Last: 5/23/2013
In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : Par, if that's true I don't have a big problem with it. For example, I think the hand-wringing in the press and among fans about Chickengate is pathetic and embarrassing. The press knew about it when times were good and chose to ignore it until times were bad and it would sell papers....
Posted by Chilliwings
The disparity between the 2011 expectations and results was one reason behind what you label "Chickengate."
You're probably correct that there would be no story if the Red Sox had met expectations that they would be good ... or if the Sox had met expectations that they would be bad.
However, the media and fans were looking for answers when the Red Sox fell short of expectations of greatness ... just as the media and fans would be looking for answers if the Sox had succeeded wildly in the face of low expectations. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 5:56 PM EST
- kannaman
- Posts: 251
- First: 8/12/2007
- Last: 5/19/2013
In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : Par, if that's true I don't have a big problem with it. For example, I think the hand-wringing in the press and among fans about Chickengate is pathetic and embarrassing. The press knew about it when times were good and chose to ignore it until times were bad and it would sell papers.... and the fans going on about it don't really have a clue about what "it" was other than what they read in the papers or on the web. It's mostly manageable and I'm sure largely is..... "behind closed doors" as is appropriate. Manny's behaviour was largely sub-optimal for years, but as long it wasn't terrible (i.e. give up on the field) and he massively produced everybody inside and outside the Sox looked away. If these guys on minor league, short money don't realise how lucky they are and behave well, out the door they'll go. Very low risk.
Posted by Chilliwings
Manny being Manny was tolerated because of how he hit but what he did was a hundred times worse than what Beckett has done. Manny quit on the team...lot's of times...Beckett has pitched hurt when they needed him to pitch...remember September and Oct. 2009 and last September also. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 6:34 PM EST
- georom4
- Posts: 7420
- First: 4/9/2009
- Last: 5/23/2013
In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : Manny being Manny was tolerated because of how he hit but what he did was a hundred times worse than what Beckett has done. Manny quit on the team...lot's of times...Beckett has pitched hurt when they needed him to pitch...remember September and Oct. 2009 and last September also.
Posted by kannaman
The only reason this sack of lard is always pitching "hurt" is because he is a disgrace of an athlete. The guy has barely reached thirty and he seems incapacitated/hurt for large spells of the every season...29 million for this salami and he has given us 19 wins in that time....maybe the most overrated Sox "star" player in the past thirty years. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 6:41 PM EST
- Chilliwings
- Posts: 2707
- First: 5/30/2008
- Last: 8/8/2012
In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : Manny being Manny was tolerated because of how he hit but what he did was a hundred times worse than what Beckett has done. Manny quit on the team...lot's of times...Beckett has pitched hurt when they needed him to pitch...remember September and Oct. 2009 and last September also.
Posted by kannaman
Absolutely, that's my point...when times are good most everything is overlooked, when times are bad certain types look for scapegoats. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 8:14 PM EST
- redsoxu571
- Posts: 369
- First: 11/15/2006
- Last: 1/24/2013
Seriously, you put stock into that article? And hit-or-miss collection of anecdotes that has no real weight whatsoever?
For example...Julian Tavarez is on the list. And while everything noted about him was true...did that make him a "cancer". I believe he was actually well-liked by teammates.
And if you have some kind of misplaced concern that this reflects poorly on the Red Sox, you did notice that the Shea Hillenbrand comments were ALL centered on his time in Toronto, yes?
Bleacher Report has some interesting reads, but don't put much stock in their items. Case in point: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/653824-nolan-ryan-and-the-50-most-overrated-players-in-mlb-history/
That might be the most uninformed, flawed piece of "sports analysis" I've ever seen... -
This post has been removed.
-
This post has been removed.
-
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 8:52 PM EST
- TheExaminer
- Posts: 12116
- First: 12/30/2010
- Last: 5/23/2013
Really? I always thought Tavarez was a good team player with the Sox. He really helped that 07 team out a lot I thought. Seemed like a fun guy to have around, but what do I know? I'm not in the clubhouse..... -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 9:08 PM EST
- parhunter1
- Posts: 3695
- First: 1/2/2006
- Last: 2/26/2012
If I remember right Hillenbrand burned some bridges in Boston when he left.
I am not putting full stock in what Bleacher report says as much as I am putting stock in the idea that has been put forth by several Boston writers that the team last year played like a group of individuals out for themselves and not having each other's backs. I am also convinced that Bobby V is not the master of putting up with big egos that Francona was. And the last thing I want to see is more cry baby, me first, players on this team. I was glad when Manny was traded, and wish he would get what he deserves--NOTHING. No contract, no media, no attention and no HOF. I am annoyed that Ortiz is still going to be overpaid for what he does, and complaining about not being respected because his employer wishes not to increase the amount by which they overpay him.
If Silva and Padilla are changed men, humbled by their fall from grace and thankful to have a chance, then I can only hope that one or both proves to have something left in the tank and that one or both play a significant role in helping this team to win games. But if either is going to complain about their role, or lack of playing time, or not being called up, give them the heave-ho ASAP. And then I know the naysayers will be on this board saying what a waste it was to sign them at all. And there won't be much to defend. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 10:25 PM EST
- LadyLake
- Posts: 282
- First: 1/13/2012
- Last: 2/14/2012
Bleacher is a tabloid blog, even Enquirer knows that.
-
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 10:52 PM EST
- expitch
- Posts: 2758
- First: 3/2/2011
- Last: 9/6/2012
In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : Manny being Manny was tolerated because of how he hit but what he did was a hundred times worse than what Beckett has done. Manny quit on the team...lot's of times...Beckett has pitched hurt when they needed him to pitch...remember September and Oct. 2009 and last September also.
Posted by kannamanBy now, someone in a position to know, starting with Beckett himself, would have said that he went back into the rotation "hurt" -- if that were true. Not only has there been no mention of "strain" or "pain," but also no hint that he favored the ankle or that it was weak or that in any way it hampered his delivery or stamina. Not a peep. With the playoffs looming, the Sox would not have put Beckett back into the rotation if there was even the slightest risk of his aggravating a "hurt" ankle. The team thought it had a playoff spot sewed up. It didn't think it needed Beckett to pitch it into the playoffs. It needed to get him ready to pitch in the playoffs. There was no need to rush him back into the rotation. All the evidence suggests that he was good to go. Good to pitch -- not so much. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/10/2012 10:58 PM EST
- LadyLake
- Posts: 282
- First: 1/13/2012
- Last: 2/14/2012
In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : By now, someone in a position to know, starting with Beckett himself, would have said that he went back into the rotation "hurt" -- if that were true. Not only has there been no mention of "strain" or "pain," but also no hint that he favored the ankle or that it was weak or that in any way it hampered his delivery or stamina. Not a peep. With the playoffs looming, the Sox would not have put Beckett back into the rotation if there was even the slightest risk of his aggravating a "hurt" ankle. The team thought it had a playoff spot sewed up. It didn't think it needed Beckett to pitch it into the playoffs. It needed to get him ready to pitch in the playoffs. There was no need to rush him back into the rotation. All the evidence suggests that he was good to go. Good to pitch -- not so much.
Posted by expitch
Perhaps fans who watched the pregame or postgame or read every single article during that period would know the answer however most forum regulars were probably on the forum instead of being better informed. Those on the forum most probably would defer to 20-20 hindsight. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/11/2012 4:35 AM EST
- expitch
- Posts: 2758
- First: 3/2/2011
- Last: 9/6/2012
In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : Perhaps fans who watched the pregame or postgame or read every single article during that period would know the answer however most forum regulars were probably on the forum instead of being better informed. Those on the forum most probably would defer to 20-20 hindsight.
Posted by LadyLakeYour point, if there is one, is vague.If anyone, anywhere, at any time, then or since, had attributed Beckett's demise to a hurt ankle, posters seeking to trace that demise to the ankle would have found and referred to it. It would have been big news. What's more, as far as I know, there has been no mention of Beckett's having the entire off-season to rest his wounded ankle.The big news is that there has been no news along those lines. The dog didn't bark.The reasoning to support the contention that the ankle was the villain goes like this: pitched great, then ankle incident, then pitched poorly. This assignment of causality has a superficial appeal, like many arguments that fall into the category of "after this, therefore because of this." The problem is that there was not and has not been any reporting of actual events to confirm this abstract reasoning.Beckett is pricey beef on the hoof. It would not have made sense for the Sox to have kept sending him out there time and again in September if he were even slightly hobbled or altering his delivery to accommodate a weak puppy. The fact that they did send him out there is concrete evidence of complete confidence in his health. ( This is a club that sits players with runny noses. ) I don't recall that he was pulled from a game because of ankle trouble. Pitching trouble, yes. Ankle trouble? Not a word about it. It would have been first-paragraph news.If I missed something, I will hear about it. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/11/2012 7:31 AM EST
- hankwilliamsjr
- Posts: 1742
- First: 12/27/2011
- Last: 6/15/2012
All 6 made the "30 worst clubhouse cancers" list, according to BleacherReport.com
Manny's cancer was a major part of 2 titles. I'm delighted that two of the biggest clubhouse welfare cancers appear to be kicked to the curb, in the names of Wastefield and Varitek. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/11/2012 8:10 AM EST
- sox4life2280
- Posts: 30
- First: 5/28/2011
- Last: 12/14/2012
I am not concerned about the possibloe antics of Padilla or Silva for one main reason....Bobby Valentine!! If either of these guys pass gas in wrong direction he will send them packing so fast, they better have their visas and passports on high alert and to ready to be used. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/11/2012 9:19 AM EST
- parhunter1
- Posts: 3695
- First: 1/2/2006
- Last: 2/26/2012
In Response to Re: Concerned?:I am not concerned about the possibloe antics of Padilla or Silva for one main reason....Bobby Valentine!! If either of these guys pass gas in wrong direction he will send them packing so fast, they better have their visas and passports on high alert and to ready to be used.
Posted by sox4life2280
Valid point. And one has to assume that Valentine had some input into these choices as well. But I still don't expect much out of either. Hoep I am wrong.