Concerned?

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    In Response to Re: Concerned?:
    [QUOTE]What is this debate between Notin and expitch really about?   Are they merely debating source material that can determine if Beckett was pitching in September with an injury that hindered his performance? Why is that so important to each of them? RSN knows for sure that Beckett pitched poorly during September and is not really obsessed or losing sleep over why or what was the cause. RSN probably in general prefers that the real Beckett was impaired. Call that an excuse if you wish to but isn't that what one would expect from a real fan? So Notin is debating and trying to bring to the the daylight news articles that Beckett had a sprained ankle and how that MIGHT affect his performance going foreward. It may be speculative but so what. A fan would want an excuse. Expitch on the other hand is aware of the sprain but thinks that Beckett was not affected by the injury. Thus expitch wants to blame Beckett's poor performance on the speculation that Beckett just stunk as a pitcher in September. He is also speculating and has no solid evidence. His behavior is atypical of what one would expect from a red Sox fan. It boils down to hidden agendas. Notin is hoping that Beckett was at a disadvantage and is really better than what we saw in September. Expitch, for some mysterious motive, has an agenda that Beckett was / is a bad pitcher. Very strange indeed for a Red sox fan with no evidence.
    Posted by LadyLake[/QUOTE]
    My motive is hardly mysterious. I am after the truth. Your definition of a Red Sox fan is a credulous fool who can abide no criticism of anyone on the team.
    Or even hard-headed analysis.
    My "solid evidence" is that the Sox pitched Beckett. There is no evidence whatsoever that he was hampered physically by a bad ankle. Beckett's record in September is not a matter of "speculation."

     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Concerned? : Or you could tell me about yours. Actually, if you read what I wrote you will find it simply falls into line with human beings in general.  And the idea of indiviual "cancers" needing to be labeled as such is a media creation and done with selection, and probably purpose in many cases.  After all, why did the Bleacher Report decide locker room fighter Chad Curtis did not belong on this list, but Oliver Perez, who exercised a privilege provided by the MLB players union, did and was therefore a detriment to his teams. If you re-read what I wrote (or read for the first time, if need be), I don't deny humans don't all get along, and I don't attempt to establish any impact of allegeedly cancerous individuals.  I only question media interpretation. AND I honestly believe I have been on as many buses and in as many locker rooms and traveled with as many MLB players on planes as all the bloggers at the Bleacher Report combined.  What are their credentials? I do find it interesting that you refuse ESPN reports on Becket's ankle, but have no problem with the material supplied by bloggers and readily accept it at face value...
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Concerned? : Or you could tell me about yours. Actually, if you read what I wrote you will find it simply falls into line with human beings in general.  And the idea of indiviual "cancers" needing to be labeled as such is a media creation and done with selection, and probably purpose in many cases.  After all, why did the Bleacher Report decide locker room fighter Chad Curtis did not belong on this list, but Oliver Perez, who exercised a privilege provided by the MLB players union, did and was therefore a detriment to his teams. If you re-read what I wrote (or read for the first time, if need be), I don't deny humans don't all get along, and I don't attempt to establish any impact of allegeedly cancerous individuals.  I only question media interpretation. AND I honestly believe I have been on as many buses and in as many locker rooms and traveled with as many MLB players on planes as all the bloggers at the Bleacher Report combined.  What are their credentials? I do find it interesting that you refuse ESPN reports on Becket's ankle, but have no problem with the material supplied by bloggers and readily accept it at face value...
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]
    Mine? I have spoken enough on this forum of my experience as a young man to indicate that I was a habitue of locker rooms, club houses, planes, busses, and hotels with teammates.
    In all this time you spent around ML players, what was your function? Were you one of them? Did you have continual access to what they thought and felt, as a teammate would over time?
    Why, you even thought in an earlier post that it's not important for teammates to be in the dugout during games, where they might be useful, and, where, more to the point, they might learn something. Pitchers, for instance, might pick up something about a batter they will face later. Did any of those ML players tell you that it's no big deal to be in the clubhouse during a game? Or, perhaps, were you in the clubhouse with players during a game?
    The world wants to know.

     
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    In Response to Re: Concerned?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Concerned? : I agree that if Beckett were feeling pain, the staff likely would not send him back out there.  But don't you think it's possible that Beckett was psychologically still favoring that ankle the slightest bit, not because he was in pain, but because he was afraid of reinjuring it?  He said that when the injury originally happened, it was a pain like he had never felt before.  The injury apparently made him quite nervous. He might not have even known consciously that he was favoring the ankle.  Maybe the coaching staff had picked up on it and were trying to correct it, but that is sometimes easier said than done.  Or maybe it was so subtle that no one picked up on it right away. If I recall correctly, Beckett had a similar concern with an elbow issue a few seasons back.  The team medical staff had cleared him physically, but he did was not fully convinced until he visited the Tommy John specialist (his name escapes me right now).   Peace of mind can be an amazing thing.   Look at what  it did for Pedroia and his foot last season.
    Posted by RedSoxKimmi[/QUOTE]
    I don't do psychoanalysis.
    No one "picked up on it" through several starts.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from LadyLake. Show LadyLake's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Concerned? : My motive is hardly mysterious. I am after the truth. Your definition of a Red Sox fan is a credulous fool who can abide no criticism of anyone on the team. Or even hard-headed analysis. My "solid evidence" is that the Sox pitched Beckett. There is no evidence whatsoever that he was hampered physically by a bad ankle. Beckett's record in September is not a matter of "speculation."
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    I never stated that Beckett's record in September was speculative. It was obvious that his performance was terrible to all including RSN, Yankee fans, MLB fans, and trolls. There was no evidence that he was hampered by injury or whether he was completely unaffected by the sprained ankle but the sprain would statistically give the benefit of the doubt to those who claim that he was hampered. You and Notin just like to debate, so carry on. I just offered my opinion on what your agenda is. You can't squeeze "the truth" out of no evidence. So why become obsessed by it. In such a vacuum why not resort to being and acting like a fan. Have fun with your debate.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Concerned? : I never stated that Beckett's record in September was speculative. It was obvious that his performance was terrible to all including RSN, Yankee fans, MLB fans, and trolls. There was no evidence that he was hampered by injury or whether he was completely unaffected by the sprained ankle but the sprain would statistically give the benefit of the doubt to those who claim that he was hampered. You and Notin just like to debate, so carry on. I just offered my opinion on what your agenda is. You can't squeeze "the truth" out of no evidence. So why become obsessed by it. In such a vacuum why not resort to being and acting like a fan. Have fun with your debate.
    Posted by LadyLake[/QUOTE]
    My goodness, Pike, you are even a bigger fool than is the consensus on this board.
    Beckett did not -- did not -- have a sprained ankle. 
    Stay away from stats. You obviously have no idea of how they are properly used.
    The evidence is the absence of evidence from any reliable quarter that Beckett was pitching injured. Whatever evidence the Sox were using, it was sufficient to pitch Beckett without fear that he might crumble on the mound, pitch poorly, or do serious long-term damage to his ankle. Not with the investment the team has in him.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from LadyLake. Show LadyLake's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Concerned? : He was pulled in the middle of the 4th inning on 5 Sep with an ankle injury ( http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2011/09/josh-beckett-injury-boston-red-sox/1) then missed a start for the same reason.  His next start was 16 Sep.
    Posted by Chilliwings[/QUOTE]
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from LadyLake. Show LadyLake's posts

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    In Response to Re: Concerned?:
    [QUOTE]Ankle sprain cited on in Sept 13th article. http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2011/09/boston-red-sox-josh-beckett-to-start-against-rays/1
    Posted by LadyLake[/QUOTE]
     
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    http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/6937482/boston-red-sox-josh-beckett-miss-start-ankle-sprain
     
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    http://bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view/2011_0907becketts_anklesprain_a_relief_2
     
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    Re: Concerned?

    By Peter Abraham, Globe Staff

    A person familiar with the condition of Red Sox righthander Josh Beckett said his ankle sprain was "bad," but that surgery was not anticipated.

    He will miss at least one start. Beckett's status beyond that is uncertain as he could return to the mound within a week or two.

    Beckett will treat the sprain by reducing the inflammation, stabilizing the ankle with a brace and strengthening the joint through rehabilitation. There are no plans for a cortisone shot at this time.

    Beckett is expected to rejoin the team in Toronto.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from LadyLake. Show LadyLake's posts

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    An MRI conducted Tuesday on Josh Beckett's right ankle revealed an injury consistent with a sprain but no further damage, team medical director Dr. Tom Gill announced.

    "Josh was evaluated today at the Massachusetts General Hospital by the Red Sox medical staff, including team foot and ankle specialist, Dr. George Theodore," Gill said in a statement. "Josh experienced pain in his ankle while pitching [Monday night]. His examination was consistent with an ankle sprain. An MRI was performed that confirmed no other injury to his ankle tendons, or his Achilles tendon. We will re-evaluate his symptoms and availability later this week."

    Beckett departed after 3 2/3 scoreless innings in a Labor Day start in Toronto. He said he stumbled in the bullpen prior to the game and then felt something in the ankle on his final two pitches of the outing. The original diagnosis was a sprained right ankle and Beckett was sent back to Boston for the exam.

     
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    Sun Sep 11 201118:38Beckett (ankle) scheduled to throw BP Monday
    Josh Beckett (ankle) is scheduled to throw a bullpen session on Monday.
    Doing so could set him up to start on Thursday or Friday. "We'll see. I don't know. I think that might be a little ambitious but I think he wants to do it, which is a good sign," Red Sox manager Terry Francona said. "We'll see how he feels." Beckett was able to play catch on Saturday afternoon from about 250 feet and had no issues.
    Source: Boston Globe
    Sun Sep 11 201109:12Josh Beckett could return next weekend
    Josh Beckett (ankle) could return to the Red Sox rotation as early as next weekend.
    Beckett was able to play catch on Saturday afternoon from about 250 feet and had no issues. Although no official timetable has been set, the righty thinks it's possible he could throw a bullpen session on Tuesday or Wednesday and then start three days later. "That sounds reasonable," Beckett said. "But like I said, it's not my decision. Obviously (the trainers are) going to have my input. I'm ready to come back when everybody feels good.''
    Source: Boston Globe
    Sat Sep 10 201117:02Beckett's ankle feeling much better
    Josh Beckett says that his ankle is feeling a lot better.
    He hopes that he misses just the one start but that is yet to be determined. The initial fear was that the injury could be an achilles but that doesn't appear to be the case. The Red Sox have to thrilled that their ace right hander is doing better but won't rush him back.
    Source: Gordon Edes on Twitter
    Sat Sep 10 201115:31Josh Beckett throws Saturday
    Josh Beckett (ankle) played catch from about 250 feet Saturday.
    Michael Silverman of the Boston Herald writes that Beckett "did not appear to be favoring" his ankle but also notes that he was wearing a brace. The Red Sox could provide an update on the pitcher's status later Saturday.
    Source: Michael Silverman on Twitter
    Fri Sep 9 201108:16Josh Beckett improving
    Red Sox manager Terry Francona said Josh Beckett (ankle) has been getting treatment and is "feeling a little bit better."
    Beckett has yet to talk about the injury, and the Sox haven't given a timetable for when the right-hander will return, but indications are that he should miss only 1-2 starts. He'll be re-evaluated over the weekend.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from LadyLake. Show LadyLake's posts

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    In Response to Re: Concerned?:
    [QUOTE]What is this debate between Notin and expitch really about?   Are they merely debating source material that can determine if Beckett was pitching in September with an injury that hindered his performance? Why is that so important to each of them? RSN knows for sure that Beckett pitched poorly during September and is not really obsessed or losing sleep over why or what was the cause. RSN probably in general prefers that the real Beckett was impaired. Call that an excuse if you wish to but isn't that what one would expect from a real fan? So Notin is debating and trying to bring to the the daylight news articles that Beckett had a sprained ankle and how that MIGHT affect his performance going foreward. It may be speculative but so what. A fan would want an excuse. Expitch on the other hand is aware of the sprain but thinks that Beckett was not affected by the injury. Thus expitch wants to blame Beckett's poor performance on the speculation that Beckett just stunk as a pitcher in September. He is also speculating and has no solid evidence. His behavior is atypical of what one would expect from a red Sox fan. It boils down to hidden agendas. Notin is hoping that Beckett was at a disadvantage and is really better than what we saw in September. Expitch, for some mysterious motive, has an agenda that Beckett was / is a bad pitcher. Very strange indeed for a Red sox fan with no evidence.
    Posted by LadyLake[/QUOTE]

    Hidden agenda.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Concerned?

    Apparently expitch will not be convinced unless a doctor violates HIPPA laws to discuss the injury....

     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Concerned? : My goodness, Pike, you are even a bigger fool than is the consensus on this board. Beckett did not -- did not -- have a sprained ankle.  Stay away from stats. You obviously have no idea of how they are properly used. The evidence is the absence of evidence from any reliable quarter that Beckett was pitching injured. Whatever evidence the Sox were using, it was sufficient to pitch Beckett without fear that he might crumble on the mound, pitch poorly, or do serious long-term damage to his ankle. Not with the investment the team has in him.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    THat is not the statement of someone who is "after the truth."

    That is a statement amde with an agenda.

    You site here and cite a lack of support for the prained ankle, refuse what is provided, and then supply for cotnrary proof that since the situation was not handled how you think it shoud hav been, then clearly something else was afoot.

    And you think what you have is substantial?  At the very most, you should be undecided...
     
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    In Response to Re: Concerned?:
    [QUOTE]Apparently expitch will not be convinced unless a doctor violates HIPPA laws to discuss the injury....
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]
    Doctors regularly discuss athletic injuries. Always have.

     
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    In Response to Re: Concerned?:
    [QUOTE]By Peter Abraham, Globe Staff A person familiar with the condition of Red Sox righthander Josh Beckett said his ankle sprain was "bad," but that surgery was not anticipated. He will miss at least one start. Beckett's status beyond that is uncertain as he could return to the mound within a week or two. Beckett will treat the sprain by reducing the inflammation, stabilizing the ankle with a brace and strengthening the joint through rehabilitation. There are no plans for a cortisone shot at this time. Beckett is expected to rejoin the team in Toronto.
    Posted by LadyLake[/QUOTE]
    No one returns to pitch in ten days after suffering a "bad sprain."

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chilliwings. Show Chilliwings's posts

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    In Response to Re: Concerned?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Concerned? : THat is not the statement of someone who is "after the truth." That is a statement amde with an agenda. You site here and cite a lack of support for the prained ankle, refuse what is provided, and then supply for cotnrary proof that since the situation was not handled how you think it shoud hav been, then clearly something else was afoot. And you think what you have is substantial?  At the very most, you should be undecided...
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    Given his alleged medical knowledge and boastful claims about being an ex-pitcher, perhaps he, like Mike Marshall, has degree in Kinesiology?

    Then again, given his absence of first hand knowledge, evidence and credibility he's more like Madam Blavatsky.
     
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    In Response to Re: Concerned?:
    [QUOTE]Sun Sep 11 2011 18:38 Beckett (ankle) scheduled to throw BP Monday Josh Beckett (ankle) is scheduled to throw a bullpen session on Monday. Doing so could set him up to start on Thursday or Friday. "We'll see. I don't know. I think that might be a little ambitious but I think he wants to do it, which is a good sign," Red Sox manager Terry Francona said. "We'll see how he feels." Beckett was able to play catch on Saturday afternoon from about 250 feet and had no issues. Source: Boston Globe Sun Sep 11 2011 09:12 Josh Beckett could return next weekend Josh Beckett (ankle) could return to the Red Sox rotation as early as next weekend. Beckett was able to play catch on Saturday afternoon from about 250 feet and had no issues. Although no official timetable has been set, the righty thinks it's possible he could throw a bullpen session on Tuesday or Wednesday and then start three days later. "That sounds reasonable," Beckett said. "But like I said, it's not my decision. Obviously (the trainers are) going to have my input. I'm ready to come back when everybody feels good.'' Source: Boston Globe Sat Sep 10 2011 17:02 Beckett's ankle feeling much better Josh Beckett says that his ankle is feeling a lot better. He hopes that he misses just the one start but that is yet to be determined. The initial fear was that the injury could be an achilles but that doesn't appear to be the case. The Red Sox have to thrilled that their ace right hander is doing better but won't rush him back. Source: Gordon Edes on Twitter Sat Sep 10 2011 15:31 Josh Beckett throws Saturday Josh Beckett (ankle) played catch from about 250 feet Saturday. Michael Silverman of the Boston Herald writes that Beckett "did not appear to be favoring" his ankle but also notes that he was wearing a brace. The Red Sox could provide an update on the pitcher's status later Saturday. Source: Michael Silverman on Twitter Fri Sep 9 2011 08:16 Josh Beckett improving Red Sox manager Terry Francona said Josh Beckett (ankle) has been getting treatment and is "feeling a little bit better." Beckett has yet to talk about the injury, and the Sox haven't given a timetable for when the right-hander will return, but indications are that he should miss only 1-2 starts. He'll be re-evaluated over the weekend.
    Posted by LadyLake[/QUOTE]
    Of course Beckett was wearing a brace -- as a precautionary measure.
    Nothing said above bears on the question of Beckett's physical condition when he actually took the mound to pitch in a game.
    That is the central issue here -- indeed, the only issue. You are obtuse beyond belief.

     
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    In Response to Re: Concerned?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Concerned? : Hidden agenda.
    Posted by LadyLake[/QUOTE]
    You'd be better off if your agenda was in fact hidden. Out in the open, it makes you look foolish.

     
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    In Response to Re: Concerned?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Concerned? : Given his alleged medical knowledge and boastful claims about being an ex-pitcher, perhaps he, like Mike Marshall, has degree in Kinesiology? Then again, given his absence of first hand knowledge, evidence and credibility he's more like Madam Blavatsky.
    Posted by Chilliwings[/QUOTE]
    Consulting Madame Blavatsky is not necessary to witness the evidence that Boston decided that Beckett was healthy enough to return to the rotation. That is first-hand evidence of Beckett's condition. 

     
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    In Response to Re: Concerned?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Concerned? : THat is not the statement of someone who is "after the truth." That is a statement amde with an agenda. You site here and cite a lack of support for the prained ankle, refuse what is provided, and then supply for cotnrary proof that since the situation was not handled how you think it shoud hav been, then clearly something else was afoot. And you think what you have is substantial?  At the very most, you should be undecided...
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]
    Your typing suggests that you were a little rattled. You normally are more careful.
    I have no problem with how the situation was handled. The Sox were smart to treat a minor injury with caution.
    I've seen no report to the effect that there was even minor ligament damage. They might have been slightly stretched, but that does not qualify as a serious strain. In fact, I've known trainers who would not even call it a strain. 
    I'm still waiting for your rendition of the official description of his condition when he resumed pitching. You continue to skirt that issue, which is the heart of the matter. Either he returned injured enough to affect his performance, or he didn't.  The Sox obviously thought he didn't. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chilliwings. Show Chilliwings's posts

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    In Response to Re: Concerned?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Concerned? : Consulting Madame Blavatsky is not necessary to witness the evidence that Boston decided that Beckett was healthy enough to return to the rotation. That is first-hand evidence of Beckett's condition. 
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    It is nothing of the kind.  It is - probably - evidence that they didn't think he'd do long-term damage to himself.

    Here are some facts:

    April-August:  Beckett having great season, probably top 2/3 in Cy Young voting
    5 Sep :  Beckett pulled from game with ankle problem, 3.2 IP, 0 ER
    10 Sep :  Beckett misses start due to ankle problem
    16/21/26 Sep:  In a close wild card race, with no decent alternative starters available to replace him, pitching in an ankle brace, Beckett pitches 3 poor games.

    Those facts themselves do not prove that he was injured - neither you nor I could know that with certainty.  But surely any reasonable person would - at a minimum - agree there was a good chance he was not completely healthy in those 3 games.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from LadyLake. Show LadyLake's posts

    Re: Concerned?

    Read this thread to get a feeling for how much Expitch has always hated Beckett.

    http://www.boston.com/community/forums.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aSportsForum%3a81df60f3-70ee-4ca3-9336-8cf2c0a8301aDiscussion%3a67884fde-6a30-4c07-aeb1-457b6216f256&plckCurrentPage=0


    His hatred is so strong that his arguments on this thread are colored by the that hatred. It is imperative to him that Beckett was a terrible pitcher who was not injured at all and his performance was not effected by any lingering effects of that injury. His passionate hatred is trumping any logic or reason. You really argue with someone this headstrong and won't be reasonable.

    Read the above thread. Why anyone can be a Red Sox fan and hate most of the team is beyond me. He would rather be headstrong in a silly forum than be a fan.
     

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