In Response to Re: Concerned? : Doctors regularly discuss athletic injuries. Always have.
Posted by expitch
Posted by expitch
Doctors have to get permission to do so. Doesn't always happen...
Concerned?
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Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 4:53 PM EST
- notin
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:
Doctors have to get permission to do so. Doesn't always happen... -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 5:00 PM EST
- notin
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : Consulting Madame Blavatsky is not necessary to witness the evidence that Boston decided that Beckett was healthy enough to return to the rotation. That is first-hand evidence of Beckett's condition.
Posted by expitch
You do realize your entire argument hinges on "healthy enough" being equal to "healthy."
Players play with injuries. Always have. We had another pitcher named John Lackey go through an undetermined amount of the season with an elbow requiring Tommy John surgery and a left fielder who played the majority of the season with some sort of wrist injury. Both make a substantial sum of money (and both are playing on bigger contracts than Beckett.)
So why did Boston let these guys play injured if your idea is the team would never do that? Very likely, they did not know the extent of the injury. The problem with pain is that there are no instruments a doctor can use to measure it beyond simply asking "does this hurt?" At that point, they are at the mercy of their patients.
(OK, there is one machine that can measure pain at least indirectly, I think its called a tocodynamometer (little help?). However, said device is only useful for measuring contractions of the womb during late tri-mesters of pregnancy, so it is doubtful one was used on Beckett's ankle, which was not even fertile at the time.) -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 5:20 PM EST
- kannaman
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : It is nothing of the kind. It is - probably - evidence that they didn't think he'd do long-term damage to himself. Here are some facts: April-August: Beckett having great season, probably top 2/3 in Cy Young voting 5 Sep : Beckett pulled from game with ankle problem, 3.2 IP, 0 ER 10 Sep : Beckett misses start due to ankle problem 16/21/26 Sep: In a close wild card race, with no decent alternative starters available to replace him, pitching in an ankle brace, Beckett pitches 3 poor games. Those facts themselves do not prove that he was injured - neither you nor I could know that with certainty. But surely any reasonable person would - at a minimum - agree there was a good chance he was not completely healthy in those 3 games.
Posted by Chilliwings
That's the way I see it also....Beckett wasn't 100% but the team needed him to pitch. Far as pitching badly...well the 2 games against the O's were his worse performances of the season but if he would have been pulled after 6 innings in the first game and 5 innings in the second one his ERA for the month of September would have been around 2.5. I couldn't believe they left him out there into the 8th inning in the first game against the O's....just shows how desparate the situation had become. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 5:31 PM EST
- Chilliwings
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Kannaman, I've made the same point before. In all 4 of his Sep starts he gave the Sox a chance to win. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 5:47 PM EST
- kannaman
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:Kannaman, I've made the same point before. In all 4 of his Sep starts he gave the Sox a chance to win.
Posted by Chilliwings
I know you have...some people are to busy bashing Beckett to really notice what happened. I find it amusing that you can't find one Red Sox player bashing Beckett or Lackey. Both pitchers took the ball and tried to help their team, the results for Lackey were terrible but Beckett had a really good season, if the team would have given him some run support it would have showed up in his W-L record. September was not Beckett's fault...if you have to point a finger at someone...it would be the GM...who didn't go out and get a pitcher when it would have mattered. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 5:57 PM EST
- notin
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : I know you have...some people are to busy bashing Beckett to really notice what happened. I find it amusing that you can't find one Red Sox player bashing Beckett or Lackey. Both pitchers took the ball and tried to help their team, the results for Lackey were terrible but Beckett had a really good season, if the team would have given him some run support it would have showed up in his W-L record. September was not Beckett's fault...if you have to point a finger at someone...it would be the GM...who didn't go out and get a pitcher when it would have mattered.
Posted by kannaman
He did, but he got the wrong one.
Not saying Harden was the right choice, but Bedard is another who is definitely NOT the solution when the problem is injured pitchers... -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 6:03 PM EST
- kannaman
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : He did, but he got the wrong one. Not saying Harden was the right choice, but Bedard is another who is definitely NOT the solution when the problem is injured pitchers...
Posted by notin
Actually I was thinking Theo should have went out and got someone when DiceK went down. When they got Bedard I was wondering why they didn't get Harden too...I think the deal was for Anderson and a bucket of balls. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 6:04 PM EST
- royf19
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : Doctors regularly discuss athletic injuries. Always have.
Posted by expitch
Actually, this is not true. Doctors rarely talk about injuries -- unless it's a surgical procedure and he was given the OK to talk -- specifically because of HIPPA.
It's team officials, GM or manager, and sometimes the trainers who talk about the injuries. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 6:06 PM EST
- notin
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : Actually I was thinking Theo should have went out and got someone when DiceK went down. When they got Bedard I was wondering why they didn't get Harden too...I think the deal was for Anderson and a bucket of balls.
Posted by kannaman
Absolutely. It was nice he got a pitcher, but we needed more than one. Especially since the minor leagues were not exactly churning out high quality pitchers at alarmining rates.
Had we any minor league pitchers available who had any talent and MLB proximity, I doubt Beckett would have pitched at all after the ankle injury... -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 6:12 PM EST
- kannaman
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : Absolutely. It was nice he got a pitcher, but we needed more than one. Especially since the minor leagues were not exactly churning out high quality pitchers at alarmining rates. Had we any minor league pitchers available who had any talent and MLB proximity, I doubt Beckett would have pitched at all after the ankle injury...
Posted by notin
I kind of wish they would have brought Millwood up and let him have a shot...it couldn't have been worse than what happened and the guy seemed excited about the chance to pitch for the Sox. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 6:15 PM EST
- notin
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : I kind of wish they would have brought Millwood up and let him have a shot...it couldn't have been worse than what happened and the guy seemed excited about the chance to pitch for the Sox.
Posted by kannaman
I don't get why they gave him an opt-out clause.
I know Millwood wanted one as a condition of signing, but if he had any other offers at all he would have been slapping his John Hancock all over them. What leverage did he have? -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 6:17 PM EST
- expitch
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : Absolutely. It was nice he got a pitcher, but we needed more than one. Especially since the minor leagues were not exactly churning out high quality pitchers at alarmining rates. Had we any minor league pitchers available who had any talent and MLB proximity, I doubt Beckett would have pitched at all after the ankle injury...
Posted by notinNot at all? You must be kidding. Not to get him ready for the playoffs when he was in perfectly good health. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 6:21 PM EST
- expitch
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : Doctors have to get permission to do so. Doesn't always happen...
Posted by notinHappens by far most of the time. You will never be hired to script the "Tommy John Story," if it's ever filmed. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 6:24 PM EST
- kannaman
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : I don't get why they gave him an opt-out clause. I know Millwood wanted one as a condition of signing, but if he had any other offers at all he would have been slapping his John Hancock all over them. What leverage did he have?
Posted by notin
He had no leverage when he signed up, but I think they gave him the opt out to get him to sign. Didn't he opt out when they brought Weiland up instead of him in August. Weiland wasn't quite ready...mentally...I liked his stuff but it was just to much to bring him up at that time, that's hindsight. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 6:31 PM EST
- expitch
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : It is nothing of the kind. It is - probably - evidence that they didn't think he'd do long-term damage to himself. Here are some facts: April-August: Beckett having great season, probably top 2/3 in Cy Young voting 5 Sep : Beckett pulled from game with ankle problem, 3.2 IP, 0 ER 10 Sep : Beckett misses start due to ankle problem 16/21/26 Sep: In a close wild card race, with no decent alternative starters available to replace him, pitching in an ankle brace, Beckett pitches 3 poor games. Those facts themselves do not prove that he was injured - neither you nor I could know that with certainty. But surely any reasonable person would - at a minimum - agree there was a good chance he was not completely healthy in those 3 games.
Posted by ChilliwingsYou send a man out to pitch with a bad ankle -- brace or no brace -- and there is always a chance that long-term damage will result. Always. Wild card race or no, you think the Sox would take that chance, given their investment in Beckett.By the end of a season, hardly any player is "completely healthy." To me, Beckett looked prematurely gassed in those games. His arm lagged, for one thing. That happens before the push-off.OK, let's say that he was plenty if not completely healthy at the end -- or he would not have been out there. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 6:44 PM EST
- LadyLake
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Expitch hates Beckett and his forum reputation based on two years of bashing him is at stake. He actually hopes that Beckett was completely healthy and stunk rather than being injured and having an excuse. He has nothing to support that notion but that doesn't matter to someone whose debate credibility is at stake. Istead it weird that he supposedly a Red Sox fan and hopes that Beckett was healthy so that he can prove that Beckett stunk instead of having an excuse. Everyone is free to debate such a phony if they wish to but another option is to ignore him.
Yes there are many who come here to to debate instead of being a Red Sox fan. It is akin to going to church and having to debate heathens. Time to evict the heathens or put onto ignore. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 6:49 PM EST
- expitch
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:Read this thread to get a feeling for how much Expitch has always hated Beckett. http://www.boston.com/community/forums.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aSportsForum%3a81df60f3-70ee-4ca3-9336-8cf2c0a8301aDiscussion%3a67884fde-6a30-4c07-aeb1-457b6216f256&plckCurrentPage=0 His hatred is so strong that his arguments on this thread are colored by the that hatred. It is imperative to him that Beckett was a terrible pitcher who was not injured at all and his performance was not effected by any lingering effects of that injury. His passionate hatred is trumping any logic or reason. You really argue with someone this headstrong and won't be reasonable. Read the above thread. Why anyone can be a Red Sox fan and hate most of the team is beyond me. He would rather be headstrong in a silly forum than be a fan.
Posted by LadyLakeIf your posts are anything to go by, almost everything is beyond you.If you think my analysis of Beckett in that thread constitutes a sign of "hatred," you have shown, once again, your inability to read, save through the eyes of a pom-pom fan. Or, in the meaning of the full term, a fanatic. You are fanatically poised to find emotional noise in any criticism of Sox players. In that, you make a lot of emotional noise yourself. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 6:52 PM EST
- expitch
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : Actually, this is not true. Doctors rarely talk about injuries -- unless it's a surgical procedure and he was given the OK to talk -- specifically because of HIPPA. It's team officials, GM or manager, and sometimes the trainers who talk about the injuries.
Posted by royf19Then doctors must very often be given the OK to talk. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 6:53 PM EST
- LadyLake
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : If your posts are anything to go by, almost everything is beyond you. If you think my analysis of Beckett in that thread constitutes a sign of "hatred," you have shown, once again, your inability to read, save through the eyes of a pom-pom fan. Or, in the meaning of the full term, a fanatic. You are fanatically poised to find emotional noise in any criticism of Sox players. In that, you make a lot of emotional noise yourself.
Posted by expitch
Thanks for bring back that link for everyone to read. Let them decide for themselves. Thanks. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 6:55 PM EST
- LadyLake
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Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 7:00 PM EST
- Chilliwings
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : You send a man out to pitch with a bad ankle -- brace or no brace -- and there is always a chance that long-term damage will result. Always. Wild card race or no, you think the Sox would take that chance, given their investment in Beckett. By the end of a season, hardly any player is "completely healthy." To me, Beckett looked prematurely gassed in those games. His arm lagged, for one thing. That happens before the push-off. OK, let's say that he was plenty if not completely healthy at the end -- or he would not have been out there.
Posted by expitch
Let's look at a topical example, though a different sport: Was Gronk healthy for the SB? From what I saw, absolutely not. I think the Pats decided his long-term health wasn't at risk, he might help a bit (really need a 3rd TE!) plus in his case there was a decoy element. THAT happens all the time. A terrible example was the Trailblazers ruining Walton's career, but that's another story.
September's evidence shows a guy whose performance fell off a cliff the day he left a game injured. Sure, maybe it's a coincidence.... -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 7:05 PM EST
- expitch
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : You do realize your entire argument hinges on "healthy enough" being equal to "healthy." Players play with injuries. Always have. We had another pitcher named John Lackey go through an undetermined amount of the season with an elbow requiring Tommy John surgery and a left fielder who played the majority of the season with some sort of wrist injury. Both make a substantial sum of money (and both are playing on bigger contracts than Beckett.) So why did Boston let these guys play injured if your idea is the team would never do that? Very likely, they did not know the extent of the injury. The problem with pain is that there are no instruments a doctor can use to measure it beyond simply asking "does this hurt?" At that point, they are at the mercy of their patients. (OK, there is one machine that can measure pain at least indirectly, I think its called a tocodynamometer (little help?). However, said device is only useful for measuring contractions of the womb during late tri-mesters of pregnancy, so it is doubtful one was used on Beckett's ankle, which was not even fertile at the time.)
Posted by notinYou must be kidding. The club did not know the extent of Beckett's injury, even though, according to you and others, it was hampering his performance. They must have missed that, because they kept sending him out there. The ace of the staff. Not bloody likely. He was plenty healthy, or he would not have been on the mound. No matter the desperation at that point.Beckett must have said that he was good to go -- GOOD to go -- and he never said otherwise during the September doldrums, nor did anyone else, as far as I know. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 7:14 PM EST
- royf19
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : Then doctors must very often be given the OK to talk.
Posted by expitch
Pay attention this year. Doctors rarely talk about injuries -- specific injuries on a specific player. Read closely when you're reading about injuries and the news is coming from the manager, GM, player, agent or trainer.
You might read the name of the doctor that the player is seeing, but I guarantee that you rarely are reading a quote from the doctor. -
Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 7:15 PM EST
- LadyLake
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This isn't debate class where the professor assigned roles to opposing teams. This is a Red Sox baseball forum. Those who assigned themselves ( in the absence of a professor) to be the contrary, devil's advocate, pretender, and troll, should not be debated, enabled, and encouraged. Why come to a forum as a fan and argue with those who come here to play the role of non-fans. Such a waste of time. A futile, academic, waste of your valuable time.
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Re: Concerned?
posted at 2/12/2012 7:25 PM EST
- Chilliwings
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In Response to Re: Concerned?:In Response to Re: Concerned? : You must be kidding. The club did not know the extent of Beckett's injury, even though, according to you and others, it was hampering his performance. They must have missed that, because they kept sending him out there. The ace of the staff. Not bloody likely. He was plenty healthy, or he would not have been on the mound. No matter the desperation at that point. Beckett must have said that he was good to go -- GOOD to go -- and he never said otherwise during the September doldrums, nor did anyone else, as far as I know.
Posted by expitch
Gee Officer Expitch, Gronk you! ;-)