could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

     

    However, we have a long way to go before it is really a non-issue

    How far do you have to go, specifically, before it is "really a non-issue"?

     

     



    Specifically: gay marriage legal, gay men and women able to live without fear of abuse, castigation, oppression.

     



    Responding to Softy on issues like this is pointless. Its better to talk to the wall.

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Engaging in a narrative with persons who use "gay" and "coming out" is like talking to an ant, except the ant is much smarter and wiser.




    Thats because of your limited knowledge Softy. What does it say about you if you do not know the meaning of those terms?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SFBostonFan. Show SFBostonFan's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

     

    The Celtics biggest problems this year has been missing a legitimate PG, Rondo, but also, and it's been this way for a couple of years, we are usually last in rebounding. We had Jason Collins but despite needing a rebounder & good defender, traded him because he was a mediocre big man. I think his coming out was more of a attention getting event because he had never been in the limelight. Personally, and I recall in the Military, solders did not want to come out 50 some years ago.

    Why, because there is obviously some Stigma to being gay and some gays are troubled & wish a catharsis re: this issue. Personally, I see no need to come out. Stay in the closet. And when many do, they become militant, defiant & do toss it in your face and get involved with Gay Freedom Day parades etc. I don't come out and say I'm heterosexual as it's no ones business. I don't come out and say I have a Latin name but I'm really an Anglo or I'm Irish, Italian, Mexican etc. & I want to disclose it. An athlete's worth is their performance & interacting in sports with their teammates to provide a winning and exciting team for fans to enjoy. Why do we need know their or anyone's sexual preference ??? Jackie Robinson was different  and had a bonifide right although he bit his tongue frequently to be militant & boast his race too as we could see his color but a gay, unless he is blatantly effeminate, need not disclose what is not obvious.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    I recall a scene in the book Going the Other Way by former major leaguer Billy Bean (not the Oakland general manager). The night after Bean hit his first MLB homerun, Padre teammates Brad Ausmus and Trevor Hoffman showed up on his doorstep with a 12-pack to celebrate. Bean had been having a romantic dinner with his partner, who literally hid in a closet while the teammates polished off the beer.

    There is something terribly sad about that scene.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/07/sports/baseball-bean-s-friends-former-teammates-give-him-their-unconditional-acceptance.html

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to SFBostonFan's comment:

     

    The Celtics biggest problems this year has been missing a legitimate PG, Rondo, but also, and it's been this way for a couple of years, we are usually last in rebounding. We had Jason Collins but despite needing a rebounder & good defender, traded him because he was a mediocre big man. I think his coming out was more of a attention getting event because he had never been in the limelight. Personally, and I recall in the Military, solders did not want to come out 50 some years ago.

    Why, because there is obviously some Stigma to being gay and some gays are troubled & wish a catharsis re: this issue. Personally, I see no need to come out. Stay in the closet. And when many do, they become militant, defiant & do toss it in your face and get involved with Gay Freedom Day parades etc. I don't come out and say I'm heterosexual as it's no ones business. I don't come out and say I have a Latin name but I'm really an Anglo or I'm Irish, Italian, Mexican etc. & I want to disclose it. An athlete's worth is their performance & interacting in sports with their teammates to provide a winning and exciting team for fans to enjoy. Why do we need know their or anyone's sexual preference ??? Jackie Robinson was different  and had a bonifide right although he bit his tongue frequently to be militant & boast his race too as we could see his color but a gay, unless he is blatantly effeminate, need not disclose what is not obvious.




    Its hard for me to understand this kind of opinion. What I am hearing is that its OK to be gay as long as you keep it private. I have a suggestion for you: for every time you say "gay" or "homosexual", substitute the word "black". Its the same thing, but to folks like you it probably seems much more bigoted. Its not. Both minorities remain disadvantaged and oppressed, unlike Irish and Italians. Silly me; I thought this was a country of EQUAL rights.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In many Native-American cultures, a homosexual person was referred to as having "twin spirits".  This was considered of great value to the community, the ability to access both male and female spirit.  I agree with this notion.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from prknsdnld. Show prknsdnld's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to hill55's comment:

    In response to S5's comment:

    I don't think the question is whether we as fans could accept a gay player.  My concern is that the player can pull his own weight and contribute to the team, regardless of sexual persuasion. I think the question is what it would do to the clubhouse chemistry.

     

    Let's face it, heteroexual guys.  We're pigs.  When we see someone we're physically attracted to our eyes don't always go to her eyes.  Wink   Smile   Are gay guys any different?

    The clubhouse is a very tight knit community with an assumption (whether correct or not) of complete heterosexuality.  Having an integrated locker room with players running around with only a towel (or less) on could prove to be very distracting for both the gay and straight players. 

    With opinions of homosexuality vs heterosexuality running as strong as they do I can see having a gay player being something that could polarize a locker room and therefore a team.

    So my question, and it is a serious question, is this:  Where do the rights of a gay player to "pursue his trade" fall within the realm of an owner who wants to maintain a harmonious clubhouse?



    Wasn't that an issue when Jackie Robinson integrated Major League Baseball?

     



    Jackie Robinson played in an all- black baseball league before playing for the Dodgers. Collins did not play in an all- gay basketball league before the N.B.A.

    This is different. And Robinson could not hide the color of his skin.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    It will take as long as it took for players of color to become a nonissue. A very long time. Some folks here say its not an issue for them; for gay people now as it was for people of color decades ago, its a BIG issue. Its so easy for white heterosexual males to dismiss this as a nonissue when it only tangentially affects them. 

    I was at a dive sports bar last night prior to the NYY.  Collins was a non-story.  Nobody looked at the TV when he was discussed, no one mentioned it in a discussion, and no one cared.

    To be perfectly honest, the only thing that I was surprised at was that he was the first.  I thought others had come out.  That's how much of a non-issue it is.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from gymrat05. Show gymrat05's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    Who cares !

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

    I think it says much about our society that when Brittney Griner came out, nobody cared. When Jason Collins came out, there were strong opinions on both sides.

     

     



    Mostly because no one knows who Griner is.

    And I doubt there are a lot of strong opinions out there about Collins.  Who has objected so far?

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to prknsdnld's comment:

    In response to hill55's comment:

     

    In response to S5's comment:

    I don't think the question is whether we as fans could accept a gay player.  My concern is that the player can pull his own weight and contribute to the team, regardless of sexual persuasion. I think the question is what it would do to the clubhouse chemistry.

     

    Let's face it, heteroexual guys.  We're pigs.  When we see someone we're physically attracted to our eyes don't always go to her eyes.  Wink   Smile   Are gay guys any different?

    The clubhouse is a very tight knit community with an assumption (whether correct or not) of complete heterosexuality.  Having an integrated locker room with players running around with only a towel (or less) on could prove to be very distracting for both the gay and straight players. 

    With opinions of homosexuality vs heterosexuality running as strong as they do I can see having a gay player being something that could polarize a locker room and therefore a team.

    So my question, and it is a serious question, is this:  Where do the rights of a gay player to "pursue his trade" fall within the realm of an owner who wants to maintain a harmonious clubhouse?



    Wasn't that an issue when Jackie Robinson integrated Major League Baseball?

     

     



    Jackie Robinson played in an all- black baseball league before playing for the Dodgers. Collins did not play in an all- gay basketball league before the N.B.A.

     

    This is different. And Robinson could not hide the color of his skin.



    No, Robinson could not hide the color of his skin-he was born that way. Nor should Collins have to hide what he was born as either. He should feel free to come out of the closet-or not-and not have a single critical comment made about it. It seems that some folks here have an issue with it though. And thats sad. Fortunately, society is changing and eventually homophobia will be relegated to its proper position.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

     

    I think it says much about our society that when Brittney Griner came out, nobody cared. When Jason Collins came out, there were strong opinions on both sides.

     

     

     



    Mostly because no one knows who Griner is.

     

    And I doubt there are a lot of strong opinions out there about Collins.  Who has objected so far?

     



    Just for fun, I went to Bloomberg to see the strong opinions.  I had trouble even finding the articles, let alone seeing strong opinions.  Besides, this being 21st century, diversity of opinions is shut down really, really fast.

     

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    What if Billy Graham walked through Fenway doors, today, wearing a Red Sox jersey.

    And what if somone asked you to define "gay" and "coming out", in the context it's being used today. How would you define it.




    As I said on another thread, I would cerainly be willing to listen to the loving Billy Graham on this issue.  I would definitely respect his point of view, as I could rest assured that HE would discuss it from a truly loving Christian perspective.

    Whenever Stiffy mentions Billy Graham, it turns my stomach!  I'm not even sure Billy Graham could discuss Stiffy in a loving tone???  Stiffy's loathful & hate-filled tone and tenor when discussing Homosexuality proves beyond the shaddow of a doubt that he is a CINO!  Yes!  Christian In Name Only!  I guess the Stiffster missed ALL THOSE SERMONS on PRIDE???? 

    p.s.  Stiffler??  I thought ALL SIN was 'equally abhorant in the eyes of God?'  What was that saying about "Pride comes before ___________?"

    Ask yourself......  Does Stiffy come at this with  a 'loving heart,' as HIS religion & God dictates?  What does God say about "those you OPENLY & WILLFULLY" disobey him?  This would constitute "living in sin!  Living openly in defiance of Gods will & laws."  IRONIC isn't it, that this is Stiffy's argument against homosexuality?  What was that God said???  Though shalt not.......

    You gotta love truly dumb people like Stiffy, whose thinking is truly a MILE WIDE & an 1/2 INCH DEEP!  Stiffy "the lawyer,"  the "Christian" couldn't think his way out of a paper bag! 

    p.s.  Why does Stiffy insist upon constantly TELLING US about his LIFESTYLE CHOICES???  To be a phony lawyer & christian???

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Mostly because no one knows who Griner is.

    And I doubt there are a lot of strong opinions out there about Collins.  Who has objected so far?



    Bet more  people have heard of Griner than Jason Collins. And as for  who  has objected  ...  haven't you been reading this thread and others  on BDC?

     

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to BostonProSportsLover's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to SFBostonFan's comment:

    The Celtics biggest problems this year has been missing a legitimate PG, Rondo, but also, and it's been this way for a couple of years, we are usually last in rebounding. We had Jason Collins but despite needing a rebounder & good defender, traded him because he was a mediocre big man. I think his coming out was more of a attention getting event because he had never been in the limelight. Personally, and I recall in the Military, solders did not want to come out 50 some years ago.

    Why, because there is obviously some Stigma to being gay and some gays are troubled & wish a catharsis re: this issue. Personally, I see no need to come out. Stay in the closet. And when many do, they become militant, defiant & do toss it in your face and get involved with Gay Freedom Day parades etc. I don't come out and say I'm heterosexual as it's no ones business. I don't come out and say I have a Latin name but I'm really an Anglo or I'm Irish, Italian, Mexican etc. & I want to disclose it. An athlete's worth is their performance & interacting in sports with their teammates to provide a winning and exciting team for fans to enjoy. Why do we need know their or anyone's sexual preference ??? Jackie Robinson was different  and had a bonifide right although he bit his tongue frequently to be militant & boast his race too as we could see his color but a gay, unless he is blatantly effeminate, need not disclose what is not obvious.

     

    Its hard for me to understand this kind of opinion. What I am hearing is that its OK to be gay as long as you keep it private. I have a suggestion for you: for every time you say "gay" or "homosexual", substitute the word "black". Its the same thing, but to folks like you it probably seems much more bigoted. Its not. Both minorities remain disadvantaged and oppressed, unlike Irish and Italians. Silly me; I thought this was a country of EQUAL rights.

     



    these types r the same ones who will say actual blacks should just keep it private and b like clarence thomas and condemn ur own. its a joke. , say nothing or b race "neutral. just dont b anything that conflicts with their COMFORT level. bunch of straight guys oowing and ahhhing about the hot gals they love and nailed, no beef, not being external about their sexuality. a gay guy cant do it, if he does nothin but just says what he is, its throwing it in their face.. laughable!




    From my above post, one might assume I'd side with this post.

    Nice to see the other side step up & sound as ignorant as Stiffy!

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    Mostly because no one knows who Griner is.

    And I doubt there are a lot of strong opinions out there about Collins.  Who has objected so far?

     



    Bet more  people have heard of Griner than Jason Collins. And as for  who  has objected  ...  haven't you been reading this thread and others  on BDC?

     

     



    I went to the trouble of skimming over all the posts.  I have Softlaw on ignore, so I can't read his.

    The rest ran in favor of Collins by about a 95% margin.

    Two posts said they'd feel uncomfortable with him in the shower at the same time, with one of them making the analogy of women and men showering together.  Nobody said anything negative about gays.  This is Rosie O'Donnell all over again.  No one cared about her.  No one cares about Collins.

    I feel as if the press is screaming out 'WHY DOES THIS CONTINUE TO BE SUCH A BIG DEAL?'.

    Then, not getting noticed, screams it out again.  Nobody at work mentioned it.  Nobody at the local sports dive mentioned it.  No one here objected to it.  The thread itself practically begged for someone to object.  It's a strawman argument.  You're trying to find out why so many people are talking about it, and yet, the only people talking about it are the people wondering why so many people are talking about it.

    To be honest, it feels like the pro-Collins people are the ones trying to keep the issue alive.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to S5's comment:

    I don't think the question is whether we as fans could accept a gay player.  My concern is that the player can pull his own weight and contribute to the team, regardless of sexual persuasion. I think the question is what it would do to the clubhouse chemistry.

     

    Let's face it, heteroexual guys.  We're pigs.  When we see someone we're physically attracted to our eyes don't always go to her eyes.  Wink   Smile   Are gay guys any different?

    The clubhouse is a very tight knit community with an assumption (whether correct or not) of complete heterosexuality.  Having an integrated locker room with players running around with only a towel (or less) on could prove to be very distracting for both the gay and straight players. 

    With opinions of homosexuality vs heterosexuality running as strong as they do I can see having a gay player being something that could polarize a locker room and therefore a team.

    So my question, and it is a serious question, is this:  Where do the rights of a gay player to "pursue his trade" fall within the realm of an owner who wants to maintain a harmonious clubhouse?



    Wasn't that an issue when Jackie Robinson integrated Major League Baseball?

     

     



    Jackie Robinson played in an all- black baseball league before playing for the Dodgers. Collins did not play in an all- gay basketball league before the N.B.A.

     

    This is different. And Robinson could not hide the color of his skin.

     



    No, Robinson could not hide the color of his skin-he was born that way. Nor should Collins have to hide what he was born as either. He should feel free to come out of the closet-or not-and not have a single critical comment made about it. It seems that some folks here have an issue with it though. And thats sad. Fortunately, society is changing and eventually homophobia will be relegated to its proper position.

     



    It is I again, S5 of the original reply. 

    First let me say that I'm as accepting as anyone you'll find of another's sexual preference.  I had a gay friend who was killed as the result of a hate crime against him. He was a great guy and did not deserve to die because of his sexual preference.  So I have some experience in gays being treated badly.

    My question went beyond the emotions of right and wrong as they pertain to homosexuality.  They instead went to the rights of both gays and non-gays.  I certainly agree that Collins SHOULD be able to come out of the closet and not have comments made about it.

    But what about the owners?  Don't the owners also have a right to not pick up a gay player solely if the owners believed that having a gay player in the locker room would be a distraction to the team?  Is that discrimination?  Players like Milton Bradley and Jose Offermann are minority players who had their careers cut short not because they were a minority but because their behaviours were a disruption to the team.  Can a gay be denied being on a team for the same reason?

    I don't have any answers or even any opinions on this.  I'm just throwing it out looking for thoughtful responses. 

     

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to mryazz's comment:

    the most hateful, unforgiving, close-minded people on this planet are self-proclaimed christians. they can't believe a person is born a homosexual, but they can believe in noah's ark. again, unbelievable! 

    i read recently where 20% of this country is atheistic and it's growing every year. perhaps there is hope.



    While it is perfectly reasonable to mock pretend Christians who demagogue issues like this in order to express their own personal hate, it is unreasonable & equally deplorable to mock and denegrate an entire religion.

    you aught to know better than to judge all, or even most Christians based on the phony Stiffler!

    He clearly has nothing to do with God!

     

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