could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to S5's comment:

    I don't think the question is whether we as fans could accept a gay player.  My concern is that the player can pull his own weight and contribute to the team, regardless of sexual persuasion. I think the question is what it would do to the clubhouse chemistry.

     

    Let's face it, heteroexual guys.  We're pigs.  When we see someone we're physically attracted to our eyes don't always go to her eyes.  Wink   Smile   Are gay guys any different?

    The clubhouse is a very tight knit community with an assumption (whether correct or not) of complete heterosexuality.  Having an integrated locker room with players running around with only a towel (or less) on could prove to be very distracting for both the gay and straight players. 

    With opinions of homosexuality vs heterosexuality running as strong as they do I can see having a gay player being something that could polarize a locker room and therefore a team.

    So my question, and it is a serious question, is this:  Where do the rights of a gay player to "pursue his trade" fall within the realm of an owner who wants to maintain a harmonious clubhouse?



    Wasn't that an issue when Jackie Robinson integrated Major League Baseball?

     
    Jackie Robinson played in an all- black baseball league before playing for the Dodgers. Collins did not play in an all- gay basketball league before the N.B.A.

     

    This is different. And Robinson could not hide the color of his skin.

     

    No, Robinson could not hide the color of his skin-he was born that way. Nor should Collins have to hide what he was born as either. He should feel free to come out of the closet-or not-and not have a single critical comment made about it. It seems that some folks here have an issue with it though. And thats sad. Fortunately, society is changing and eventually homophobia will be relegated to its proper position.



    It is I again, S5 of the original reply. 

     

    First let me say that I'm as accepting as anyone you'll find of another's sexual preference.  I had a gay friend who was killed as the result of a hate crime against him. He was a great guy and did not deserve to die because of his sexual preference.  So I have some experience in gays being treated badly.

    My question went beyond the emotions of right and wrong as they pertain to homosexuality.  They instead went to the rights of both gays and non-gays.  I certainly agree that Collins SHOULD be able to come out of the closet and not have comments made about it.

    But what about the owners?  Don't the owners also have a right to not pick up a gay player solely if the owners believed that having a gay player in the locker room would be a distraction to the team?  Is that discrimination?  Players like Milton Bradley and Jose Offermann are minority players who had their careers cut short not because they were a minority but because their behaviours were a disruption to the team.  Can a gay be denied being on a team for the same reason?

    I don't have any answers or even any opinions on this.  I'm just throwing it out looking for thoughtful responses. 




    I don't know S5, one minute you sound so reasonable and enlightened, and the next you sound like ???  I really don't want to say....

    You're right S5, any business owner should be able to keep gays from being hired to work in their establishment simply because it might make someone uncomfortable.

    Good thinking! 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

    In response to S5's comment:

    I don't think the question is whether we as fans could accept a gay player.  My concern is that the player can pull his own weight and contribute to the team, regardless of sexual persuasion. I think the question is what it would do to the clubhouse chemistry.

     

    Let's face it, heteroexual guys.  We're pigs.  When we see someone we're physically attracted to our eyes don't always go to her eyes.  Wink   Smile   Are gay guys any different?

    The clubhouse is a very tight knit community with an assumption (whether correct or not) of complete heterosexuality.  Having an integrated locker room with players running around with only a towel (or less) on could prove to be very distracting for both the gay and straight players. 

    With opinions of homosexuality vs heterosexuality running as strong as they do I can see having a gay player being something that could polarize a locker room and therefore a team.

    So my question, and it is a serious question, is this:  Where do the rights of a gay player to "pursue his trade" fall within the realm of an owner who wants to maintain a harmonious clubhouse?



    Wasn't that an issue when Jackie Robinson integrated Major League Baseball?

     

     



    Jackie Robinson played in an all- black baseball league before playing for the Dodgers. Collins did not play in an all- gay basketball league before the N.B.A.

     

    This is different. And Robinson could not hide the color of his skin.

     



    No, Robinson could not hide the color of his skin-he was born that way. Nor should Collins have to hide what he was born as either. He should feel free to come out of the closet-or not-and not have a single critical comment made about it. It seems that some folks here have an issue with it though. And thats sad. Fortunately, society is changing and eventually homophobia will be relegated to its proper position.

     

     



    It is I again, S5 of the original reply. 

     

    First let me say that I'm as accepting as anyone you'll find of another's sexual preference.  I had a gay friend who was killed as the result of a hate crime against him. He was a great guy and did not deserve to die because of his sexual preference.  So I have some experience in gays being treated badly.

    My question went beyond the emotions of right and wrong as they pertain to homosexuality.  They instead went to the rights of both gays and non-gays.  I certainly agree that Collins SHOULD be able to come out of the closet and not have comments made about it.

    But what about the owners?  Don't the owners also have a right to not pick up a gay player solely if the owners believed that having a gay player in the locker room would be a distraction to the team?  Is that discrimination?  Players like Milton Bradley and Jose Offermann are minority players who had their careers cut short not because they were a minority but because their behaviours were a disruption to the team.  Can a gay be denied being on a team for the same reason?

    I don't have any answers or even any opinions on this.  I'm just throwing it out looking for thoughtful responses. 

     




    But what about the owners?  Don't the owners also have a right to not pick up a gay player solely if the owners believed that having a gay player in the locker room would be a distraction to the team?

     

    Substitute "black" for "gay" and you have your answer.

     
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    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

     

    Maybe one day when equality for everyone has been reached things like this will not be an issue. That day has not yet arrived, so, unfortunately, it IS still an issue. Because of Collins there will be kids looking up thinking that the way they are is not so bad after all-if a professional basketball player can come out then that kid might think the door is open to him or her too.

     

     




    I get that it is an important story,  but breaking news?  It is a good sign that more and more people are seeing it as a non-issue.

     

     


    I agree to some extent.  I think it is a great sign that more and more people are seeing it as a non-issue.  And, perhaps ironically, Jason Collins being such a big issue will help make it more of a non-issue.  

    However, we have a long way to go before it is really a non-issue.



    To be a non-issue for all?  Possibly never, Space...maybe in 10,000 years.  Because it's hard to imagine a world without bigots.  But other parts of the entertainment business (music, film, diving, tennis) seem to be able to cope with this (non-)issue.

    I think it's a huge story because he's the first in the US to come out.  And that is great for other gay athletes that might sick of hiding their true selves, sick of not being able to tell their teammates about their partner, or last night's conquest...and great for the children still being bullied by mini-Softlaws and 67redsoxes about something over which they have no control and isn't bad anyway.

    The next few such stories will get fewer column inches then it will stop being reported.  And that will be the true day to celebrate.

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    @ RSDD & Pumpsie...

    C'mon guys.  I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion, exploring both sides of this issue.  Quit painting me like a homophobe.  If you knew me you'd know that I am most certainly not. 

    I agree that Collins should be able to play for whomever would hire him, just like everyone else.  And if we lived in a perfect world this wouldn't be an issue.  But do you deny that having an open gay in the locker room might be a distraction to some heterosexual players?  Hatred of gays is something that's very deeply rooted in many Christians and a large number of professional athletes are devout Christians.  Is it unreasonable to think that a few of these players are going to carry some deeply rooted prejudices agains gays?  Or am I not giving the players enough credit?  Can't we agree that forcing an openly gay player into a locker room with one or more players who may be homophobic may be a recipe for disaster?

    All I'm asking is whether the owners have an obligation to pick up a player whom they think might be harmful to team chemistry - for ANY reason.

    IMO from the point of view of the owners it's a balancing act.  Everyone brings different things to a team, some positive and some negative.  Shouldn't it be up to the owners to decide whether the negatives outweigh the positives? 

    When we pull our heads out of the sand we realize that the owners are in this to make money.  Jackie Robinson wasn't picked up because he was black.  He was picked up because he was one Hell of a player who was also black.  The owners picked Robinson up because in the opinion of the owners his positives outweighed the negatives and had the potential to make more money for the owners. 

    Placing a black player in an all-white clubhouse was a "social experiment" that worked, but the reason it worked was because Robinson was an outstanding player.   However, in the meantime many outstanding players weren't allowed to play because of their color.  Satchel Page is a great example of that.  (One of my favorite quotes comes from Page when asked if he regretted not being allowed to play against the greatest players of his time. He replied, "What makes you think I didn't?") 

    The primary issue isn't Collin's sexual orientation.  That's the secondary issue.  The primary issue is that he's not the Jackie Robinson of basketball.  He's not "that" good.

    We need to get to a point where gays are not "gay players", but instead they're players who happen to be gay. I just don't think we're there yet and it'll take someone of the stature and courage of Robinson to make it happen.  When that player is found there'll be another "social experiment" just like the one with Robinson and it will have the same outcome. 

    But in the meantime, what do we do?  Do we pressure owners to pick up marginal gay players because they're gay and force that social experiment on them, or do we allow nature to take its course like what happened with Robinson?  Or is there another option I'm not seeing?

    Evolution takes time.

     

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    Heres a serious question I have.

    People say that gay guys dont choose to be gay. Im not sure I believe that.
    So my question to that is how did he have sex with a woman for 8 years and probably before that as well?

    Now, if hes attracted to men, and women dont do anything for him, how did he perform for all those years?

    Im not attracted to men and I can tell you that there is no way I would get aroused, never mind doing it for a number of years. So how can he, unless its a choice?

    Im just trying to understand this. How can they say i isnt a choice If you can perform with women all those years. Men just dont work that way.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Heres a serious question I have.

    People say that gay guys dont choose to be gay. Im not sure I believe that.
    So my question to that is how did he have sex with a woman for 8 years and probably before that as well?

    Now, if hes attracted to men, and women dont do anything for him, how did he perform for all those years?

    Im not attracted to men and I can tell you that there is no way I would get aroused, never mind doing it for a number of years. So how can he, unless its a choice?

    Im just trying to understand this. How can they say i isnt a choice If you can perform with women all those years. Men just dont work that way.



    A fair question. In conversations with gay friends, some have told me they didn't fully realize they were gay until  a certain age. Others said they knew it right away. I don't know Jason Collins, but perhaps he was trying to be what is considered normal.

    As for the choice question, it makes no sense to me that anyone would choose to be gay.  Even though they have made progress in gaining some acceptance in this country, they still are  outcasted in many communities and  have  very few  rights.  And many are subjected to bigotry,  hatred, and violence. Why anyone would choose that lifestyle I don't get.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    Heres a serious question I have.

    People say that gay guys dont choose to be gay. Im not sure I believe that.
    So my question to that is how did he have sex with a woman for 8 years and probably before that as well?

    Now, if hes attracted to men, and women dont do anything for him, how did he perform for all those years?

    Im not attracted to men and I can tell you that there is no way I would get aroused, never mind doing it for a number of years. So how can he, unless its a choice?

    Im just trying to understand this. How can they say i isnt a choice If you can perform with women all those years. Men just dont work that way.

     



    A fair question. In conversations with gay friends, some have told me they didn't fully realize they were gay until  a certain age. Others said they knew it right away. I don't know Jason Collins, but perhaps he was trying to be what is considered normal.

     

    As for the choice question, it makes no sense to me that anyone would choose to be gay.  Even though they have made progress in gaining some acceptance in this country, they still are  outcasted in many communities and  have  very few  rights.  And many are subjected to bigotry,  hatred, and violence. Why anyone would choose that lifestyle I don't get.

     




    Yeah, thats why I didnt fully say that i 100% didnt believe it. Just had some questions. I still dont understand how your not turned on by women, yet are able to have sex with them for years. Not all situations are the same, but Collins knew he was gay, yet kept up the act.

    Also heres another scinario I have.

    If I was put in a locker room with naked women showering, would that not be the same as a gay man being in a locker with naked men showering? I mean, its basically the same, right? Even if I respected them and controled myself, Im sure most of them would be uncomfortable with me there regardless and would ask that I shower elsewhere. So wouldnt some players have the right to feel very uncomfortable with him in the locker room and ask that he be seperated?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Also heres another scinario I have.

    If I was put in a locker room with naked women showering, would that not be the same as a gay man being in a locker with naked men showering? I mean, its basically the same, right? Even if I respected them and controled myself, Im sure most of them would be uncomfortable with me there regardless and would ask that I shower elsewhere. So wouldnt some players have the right to feel very uncomfortable with him in the locker room and ask that he be seperated?



    That's a hard one to answer, other than to say there's this gay man I know who often plays basketball with us at the Y. He's often in the locker room showering at the same time, but I have no problem with it.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Heres a serious question I have.

    People say that gay guys dont choose to be gay. Im not sure I believe that.
    So my question to that is how did he have sex with a woman for 8 years and probably before that as well?

    Now, if hes attracted to men, and women dont do anything for him, how did he perform for all those years?

    Im not attracted to men and I can tell you that there is no way I would get aroused, never mind doing it for a number of years. So how can he, unless its a choice?

    Im just trying to understand this. How can they say i isnt a choice If you can perform with women all those years. Men just dont work that way.



    I can tell you that one of my closest friends is gay, but has slept with many attractive women over the years (he is attractive, smart and cool).  In his own words "I'm an opportunist."  :-)   I don't quite understand it either, but I don't have to and it's none of my business anyway.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Heres a serious question I have.

    People say that gay guys dont choose to be gay. Im not sure I believe that.
    So my question to that is how did he have sex with a woman for 8 years and probably before that as well?

    Now, if hes attracted to men, and women dont do anything for him, how did he perform for all those years?

    Im not attracted to men and I can tell you that there is no way I would get aroused, never mind doing it for a number of years. So how can he, unless its a choice?

    Im just trying to understand this. How can they say i isnt a choice If you can perform with women all those years. Men just dont work that way.




    Sexuality is a spectrum Southpaw. Most people are at the far end of the spectrum, being attracted to either the opposite sex or to the same sex. Some are more towards the middle, being attracted mostly to the opposite sex or to the same sex but who are able to "perform" under the right circumstances with partners whose sex is not their general preference, and there are some people who are truly bisexual (see: Ann Heche). I will also tell you this: gay people are under tremendous pressure in some societies in the world, and in some areas of this country, unfortunately, to "perform" as heterosexuals-they are told that the way they were born is inferior to the way others were born. The church tells them that they are evil. Its no wonder that Collins tried so hard to "act straight" as he put it in one of his interviews.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    Also heres another scinario I have.

    If I was put in a locker room with naked women showering, would that not be the same as a gay man being in a locker with naked men showering? I mean, its basically the same, right? Even if I respected them and controled myself, Im sure most of them would be uncomfortable with me there regardless and would ask that I shower elsewhere. So wouldnt some players have the right to feel very uncomfortable with him in the locker room and ask that he be seperated?

     



    That's a hard one to answer, other than to say there's this gay man I know who often plays basketball with us at the Y. He's often in the locker room showering at the same time, but I have no problem with it.

     

     



    Exactly Lloyd. Southpaw has ALREADY been in a shower room with a gay man or two, I am sure. He didn't even notice it. To think that a gay man cannot control himself in those circumstances is absurd.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    Heres a serious question I have.

    People say that gay guys dont choose to be gay. Im not sure I believe that.
    So my question to that is how did he have sex with a woman for 8 years and probably before that as well?

    Now, if hes attracted to men, and women dont do anything for him, how did he perform for all those years?

    Im not attracted to men and I can tell you that there is no way I would get aroused, never mind doing it for a number of years. So how can he, unless its a choice?

    Im just trying to understand this. How can they say i isnt a choice If you can perform with women all those years. Men just dont work that way.

     




    Sexuality is a spectrum Southpaw. Most people are at the far end of the spectrum, being attracted to either the opposite sex or to the same sex. Some are more towards the middle, being attracted mostly to the opposite sex or to the same sex but who are able to "perform" under the right circumstances with partners whose sex is not their general preference, and there are some people who are truly bisexual (see: Ann Heche). I will also tell you this: gay people are under tremendous pressure in some societies in the world, and in some areas of this country, unfortunately, to "perform" as heterosexuals-they are told that the way they were born is inferior to the way others were born. The church tells them that they are evil. Its no wonder that Collins tried so hard to "act straight" as he put it in one of his interviews.

     




    Thanks everyone for your opinions.

    Im a believer in God, but have no issue with the way others choose to live their lives. Who am I to judge, right? Im just trying to understand more about something I really have no idea about. I dont have any gay friends or anything like that to ask these questions to. Personally, If someone respects me and is cool with me, I dont care about color, sexual preference or religious beliefs, Ill respect and be cool with them.

    I try not to speak ignorantly and will ask questions if I dont understand something, So I hope Im not coming across in a bad way.

    We can be different and believe in different things, live different lifestyles an still respect one another as individuals in this world. Whats that saying, "Dont judge until you've walked a mile in my shoes."  Again, thanks for trying to answer my questions guys. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Exactly Lloyd. Southpaw has ALREADY been in a shower room with a gay man or two, I am sure. He didn't even notice it. To think that a gay man cannot control himself in those circumstances is absurd.


    That's the point behind Collins coming out that nobody is talking about. He's been showering with men in the NBA for more than a decade without incident. And as any guy who slow-danced at the 8th grade sock hop knows, it's awfully difficult for a male to conceal his arousal.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    Heres a serious question I have.

    People say that gay guys dont choose to be gay. Im not sure I believe that.
    So my question to that is how did he have sex with a woman for 8 years and probably before that as well?

    Now, if hes attracted to men, and women dont do anything for him, how did he perform for all those years?

    Im not attracted to men and I can tell you that there is no way I would get aroused, never mind doing it for a number of years. So how can he, unless its a choice?

    Im just trying to understand this. How can they say i isnt a choice If you can perform with women all those years. Men just dont work that way.

     




    Sexuality is a spectrum Southpaw. Most people are at the far end of the spectrum, being attracted to either the opposite sex or to the same sex. Some are more towards the middle, being attracted mostly to the opposite sex or to the same sex but who are able to "perform" under the right circumstances with partners whose sex is not their general preference, and there are some people who are truly bisexual (see: Ann Heche). I will also tell you this: gay people are under tremendous pressure in some societies in the world, and in some areas of this country, unfortunately, to "perform" as heterosexuals-they are told that the way they were born is inferior to the way others were born. The church tells them that they are evil. Its no wonder that Collins tried so hard to "act straight" as he put it in one of his interviews.

     

     




    Thanks everyone for your opinions.

     

    Im a believer in God, but have no issue with the way others choose to live their lives. Who am I to judge, right? Im just trying to understand more about something I really have no idea about. I dont have any gay friends or anything like that to ask these questions to. Personally, If someone respects me and is cool with me, I dont care about color, sexual preference or religious beliefs, Ill respect and be cool with them.

    I try not to speak ignorantly and will ask questions if I dont understand something, So I hope Im not coming across in a bad way.

    We can be different and believe in different things, live different lifestyles an still respect one another as individuals in this world. Whats that saying, "Dont judge until you've walked a mile in my shoes."  Again, thanks for trying to answer my questions guys. 



    You are coming across as someone who is open to a variety of opinions Southpaw. I also believe in God, and though I am not big on organized religion I have no problem with Christians or the way they choose to live their lives as long as they do not try to impose their religious beliefs on me. This country does not live by religious laws. Unfortunately, some from the religious right-who believe deeply in the Bible-seek to make the Bible's laws the law of the land, and that is wrong.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    Exactly Lloyd. Southpaw has ALREADY been in a shower room with a gay man or two, I am sure. He didn't even notice it. To think that a gay man cannot control himself in those circumstances is absurd.

     

     

     

     

    That's the point behind Collins coming out that nobody is talking about. He's been showering with men in the NBA for more than a decade without incident. And as any guy who slow-danced at the 8th grade sock hop knows, it's awfully difficult for a male to conceal his arousal.

     




    Im not saying he cant control himself PG and never insiunated that, which is why I brought up the scinario about a hetro man being in a womens shower. Its not a matter of controling yourself, Its a matter of still feeing uncomfortable. That was the point.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    Exactly Lloyd. Southpaw has ALREADY been in a shower room with a gay man or two, I am sure. He didn't even notice it. To think that a gay man cannot control himself in those circumstances is absurd.

     

     

     

     

    That's the point behind Collins coming out that nobody is talking about. He's been showering with men in the NBA for more than a decade without incident. And as any guy who slow-danced at the 8th grade sock hop knows, it's awfully difficult for a male to conceal his arousal.

     

     




    Im not saying he cant control himself PG and never insiunated that, which is why I brought up the scinario about a hetro man being in a womens shower. Its not a matter of controling yourself, Its a matter of still feeing uncomfortable. That was the point.

     



    "Feeling uncomfortable" is not the other guy's problem Southpaw. I understand what you are saying, but those are feelings that individual would have to deal with. There are many examples of men and women being nude together in a nonsexual setting. You just get over it. When I was younger I liked to go to a "clothing optional" beach in San Diego. There was an initial period of discomfort, but after a while, I just enjoyed the waves and the sun and forgot about the fact that half the people there were not wearing clothes.

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Heres a serious question I have.

    People say that gay guys dont choose to be gay. Im not sure I believe that.
    So my question to that is how did he have sex with a woman for 8 years and probably before that as well?

    Now, if hes attracted to men, and women dont do anything for him, how did he perform for all those years?

    Im not attracted to men and I can tell you that there is no way I would get aroused, never mind doing it for a number of years. So how can he, unless its a choice?

    Im just trying to understand this. How can they say i isnt a choice If you can perform with women all those years. Men just dont work that way.



    From my own experience  now....

    In the past I worked with a gay man and we became friends.  Yes, straight men can be friends with gay men without it affecting their friendship.  This was 20+ years ago, back when the world wasn't as "gay friendly" as it is now, and we worked in somewhat a redneck environment where my friend was called about every derogatory name you can think of. 

    I was quite young at the time and had the same question you raise about "why".  So I asked him.  Why would he choose do do this, to act like this, when you can see what's happening to you???

    As he said, "Think about it.  I obviously woke up one morning and said to myself, 'How can I possibly *fork* up my life as badly as I can?'  This ISN'T a choice.  It's the way I AM.  And I wish I weren't but it IS the way I am and there's nothing I can do about it.  I'd rather steel myself against the insults than compromise my own integrity."

    He said, "I was engaged to be married to a woman when I was about 20 and yes, we had sex on a regular basis but I began to wonder about what was going on when I felt revulsion afterward.  I don't know why I was able to perform but it always made me sick afterward.  That's when I began to think that maybe women weren't for me."

    My guess is that at 20 years old the physical part of sex overruled his emotional response.  It was completely self-centered sex.  It felt good so he did it, but once each act was over and the reality set in he realized that it wasn't what he wanted. 

    It happens. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SFBostonFan. Show SFBostonFan's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to prknsdnld's comment:

     

    In response to hill55's comment:

     

    In response to S5's comment:

    I don't think the question is whether we as fans could accept a gay player.  My concern is that the player can pull his own weight and contribute to the team, regardless of sexual persuasion. I think the question is what it would do to the clubhouse chemistry.

     

    Let's face it, heteroexual guys.  We're pigs.  When we see someone we're physically attracted to our eyes don't always go to her eyes.  Wink   Smile   Are gay guys any different?

    The clubhouse is a very tight knit community with an assumption (whether correct or not) of complete heterosexuality.  Having an integrated locker room with players running around with only a towel (or less) on could prove to be very distracting for both the gay and straight players. 

    With opinions of homosexuality vs heterosexuality running as strong as they do I can see having a gay player being something that could polarize a locker room and therefore a team.

    So my question, and it is a serious question, is this:  Where do the rights of a gay player to "pursue his trade" fall within the realm of an owner who wants to maintain a harmonious clubhouse?



    Wasn't that an issue when Jackie Robinson integrated Major League Baseball?

     

     



    Jackie Robinson played in an all- black baseball league before playing for the Dodgers. Collins did not play in an all- gay basketball league before the N.B.A.

     

    This is different. And Robinson could not hide the color of his skin.

     



    No, Robinson could not hide the color of his skin-he was born that way. Nor should Collins have to hide what he was born as either. He should feel free to come out of the closet-or not-and not have a single critical comment made about it. It seems that some folks here have an issue with it though. And thats sad. Fortunately, society is changing and eventually homophobia will be relegated to its proper position.

     

     


    ===========================================

    Pumpsie...you have not responded to the post above about possible disruption in a locker room with people nude who have different views on sex.  You've come out with the race issue and in this case, it is not Apples to Apples.  Yes, it is discrimination but the circumstances of being nude in close quarters is different. You are correct that a Black can't hide his color so there is no coming out of the closet. The only thing necessary is that racism becomes accepted. Wouldn't you say it has with so many Latins in baseball and maybe, I would guess, 75% of basketball players are black. Why---well, this could be another topic, are they better athletes than whites ?

     

    I have no problem with Collins coming out of the closet. He was a mediocre BIG MAN and Celtics being last or close to it the past few years in rebs still let him go. I don't know how much more of a future he'll have and only because of his mediocre basketball skills and I sense he may have had a complex about it so came out and said very bravely, I'm Gay!

    I'm saying, unless the person is effeminate, and we can't tell as opposed to a Black, if he has any intelligence he would understand many might feel uncomfortable in the locker rooms so don't disclose anything until he's out of basketball & then rent an airplane skywriter if he wishes.

    I put Jackie Robinson & the race card issue in a different category than gays mingling with non-gays. In the Military in the foxholes & showers, one or many may have had disciminatory feelings but the non-white person was not a threat to one's beliefs that God put us on this earth to use our God given gift to pro-create when physically able to do so. I've said this before, I play mixed doubles tennis with females, we are clothed but I still find them attractive and I would be aroused(and doubt if many heterosexuals wouldn't be too) if we then showered together. Sure it's nice to say that Jason Collins or other gays can control their sexual feelings in nude surroundings but the situation may make heterosexuals uncomfortable and cause a moral problem. I recommend, as we don't shower with women, that the gays have separate shower stalls. Now, if someone discriminates against gays if their sexual preference is not threatened as being in a shower with them, then yes they are bigots.

     

    OK, hopefully this topic has been beaten ala a dead horse and I'm impressed that so many avid sports fans have very intelligent, some not so much, views on this controversal subject.

    I wish to end with some levity that we refer to the Bible to help resolve the issue of same sex marriage & the use of marijuana as it says and I'm paraphrasing " Man who lies with Man shall be Stoned" !!!

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to trantor's comment:


    Being against abortion, capital punishment, unjust wars, discrimination, polluting our planet,  and waterboarding are not only Christian principles but are taught in most religions. There is a moral compass in most societies that tells you right from wrong. Individuals for the most part also are aware of right from wrong. The Golden Rule is alive in most religions, mores, societies, and tribes in the jungle. Most of the laws of this country and other countries are based on what society deems to be right or wrong. Whether it came from the Bible, or other religions, or a higher spirit, common sense, Golden Rule, is academic.  The right to vote and integration were not laws eighty years ago but should have been since they were right and just.


    You speak of Christian principles but in the next sentence talk about the Golden Rule and I often find those two things to be opposites of one another. 

    Christian prinicples dictate that abortion, gayness, etc. are wrong and yet the Religious (far) Right are the first ones to treat others in a manner in which they wouldn't want to be treated. 

    Another example from my past:

    I tangentially knew a young man who showed every indication he was gay right from the time he was a toddler.  He played with dolls, pushed carriages, and dressed up in his mother's clothes.  He never had a girlfriend and when he graduated from HS he went to the west coast and became a gay activist.  During his time there he contracted AIDS and came home to be with his family to die. 

    These people came from a very small town where everyone knew everyone else's business - which is why he left in the first place - and when he came home everyone learned why he was there. 

    His family had always been a part of a fundamentalest congregation and the members of that congregation met and decided that the best way to handle it all was to show him the error of his ways by shunning him.  So they shunned him and his entire family.  They were no longer welcome in the church until he "repented his sins".  Church members who met his family on the street wouldn't speak to them.  He died at home with his mother taking care of him, and the church refused to allow the family to hold the ceremony there. 

    So where does "Do unto others..." fit into that?

    I agree that most people have a moral compass that tells them right from wrong.  The problem is that that compass points in different directions for different people. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Im not saying he cant control himself PG and never insiunated that, which is why I brought up the scinario about a hetro man being in a womens shower. Its not a matter of controling yourself, Its a matter of still feeing uncomfortable. That was the point.



    I'm sorry, Southpaw,  I didn't mean imply you were  saying that. Because you weren't.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    Im not saying he cant control himself PG and never insiunated that, which is why I brought up the scinario about a hetro man being in a womens shower. Its not a matter of controling yourself, Its a matter of still feeing uncomfortable. That was the point.

     



    I'm sorry, Southpaw,  I didn't mean imply you were  saying that. Because you weren't.

     

     




    No worries Lloyd...Its all good :)

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to trantor's comment:

     


    Being against abortion, capital punishment, unjust wars, discrimination, polluting our planet,  and waterboarding are not only Christian principles but are taught in most religions. There is a moral compass in most societies that tells you right from wrong. Individuals for the most part also are aware of right from wrong. The Golden Rule is alive in most religions, mores, societies, and tribes in the jungle. Most of the laws of this country and other countries are based on what society deems to be right or wrong. Whether it came from the Bible, or other religions, or a higher spirit, common sense, Golden Rule, is academic.  The right to vote and integration were not laws eighty years ago but should have been since they were right and just.

     


    You speak of Christian principles but in the next sentence talk about the Golden Rule and I often find those two things to be opposites of one another. 

    Christian prinicples dictate that abortion, gayness, etc. are wrong and yet the Religious (far) Right are the first ones to treat others in a manner in which they wouldn't want to be treated. 

     

    Another example from my past:

    I tangentially knew a young man who showed every indication he was gay right from the time he was a toddler.  He played with dolls, pushed carriages, and dressed up in his mother's clothes.  He never had a girlfriend and when he graduated from HS he went to the west coast and became a gay activist.  During his time there he contracted AIDS and came home to be with his family to die. 

    These people came from a very small town where everyone knew everyone else's business - which is why he left in the first place - and when he came home everyone learned why he was there. 

    His family had always been a part of a fundamentalest congregation and the members of that congregation met and decided that the best way to handle it all was to show him the error of his ways by shunning him.  So they shunned him and his entire family.  They were no longer welcome in the church until he "repented his sins".  Church members who met his family on the street wouldn't speak to them.  He died at home with his mother taking care of him, and the church refused to allow the family to hold the ceremony there. 

    So where does "Do unto others..." fit into that?

    I agree that most people have a moral compass that tells them right from wrong.  The problem is that that compass points in different directions for different people. 



    That kind of story is all too common S5. The idea that its OK to be gay as long as you act straight in public as has been espoused by some here is another form of oppression. This country is coming around, led by the younger generation who are more tolerant of differences among people. There is no cogent arguement IMO that the gay minority are not an oppressed group in this country, one that has been unfairly discriminated against for hundreds of years. Change cannot happen soon enough.

    I also agree that we have beaten this topic into the ground.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to trantor's comment:

     


    Being against abortion, capital punishment, unjust wars, discrimination, polluting our planet,  and waterboarding are not only Christian principles but are taught in most religions. There is a moral compass in most societies that tells you right from wrong. Individuals for the most part also are aware of right from wrong. The Golden Rule is alive in most religions, mores, societies, and tribes in the jungle. Most of the laws of this country and other countries are based on what society deems to be right or wrong. Whether it came from the Bible, or other religions, or a higher spirit, common sense, Golden Rule, is academic.  The right to vote and integration were not laws eighty years ago but should have been since they were right and just.

     


    You speak of Christian principles but in the next sentence talk about the Golden Rule and I often find those two things to be opposites of one another. 

    Christian prinicples dictate that abortion, gayness, etc. are wrong and yet the Religious (far) Right are the first ones to treat others in a manner in which they wouldn't want to be treated. 

     

    Another example from my past:

    I tangentially knew a young man who showed every indication he was gay right from the time he was a toddler.  He played with dolls, pushed carriages, and dressed up in his mother's clothes.  He never had a girlfriend and when he graduated from HS he went to the west coast and became a gay activist.  During his time there he contracted AIDS and came home to be with his family to die. 

    These people came from a very small town where everyone knew everyone else's business - which is why he left in the first place - and when he came home everyone learned why he was there. 

    His family had always been a part of a fundamentalest congregation and the members of that congregation met and decided that the best way to handle it all was to show him the error of his ways by shunning him.  So they shunned him and his entire family.  They were no longer welcome in the church until he "repented his sins".  Church members who met his family on the street wouldn't speak to them.  He died at home with his mother taking care of him, and the church refused to allow the family to hold the ceremony there. 

    So where does "Do unto others..." fit into that?

    I agree that most people have a moral compass that tells them right from wrong.  The problem is that that compass points in different directions for different people. 




    See, this is the part of religion that I dont understand, nor agree with. Thats why Im not involved in any organized religious gatherings. I have my beliefs and try to live a good life. I could never be a part of something like that. That guy, nor the family, did nothing to any of those people to deserve that...

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: could we accept a Jason Collins walking thru those Fenway doors today with RED SOX on his jersey?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to S5's comment:

     

    In response to trantor's comment:

     


    Being against abortion, capital punishment, unjust wars, discrimination, polluting our planet,  and waterboarding are not only Christian principles but are taught in most religions. There is a moral compass in most societies that tells you right from wrong. Individuals for the most part also are aware of right from wrong. The Golden Rule is alive in most religions, mores, societies, and tribes in the jungle. Most of the laws of this country and other countries are based on what society deems to be right or wrong. Whether it came from the Bible, or other religions, or a higher spirit, common sense, Golden Rule, is academic.  The right to vote and integration were not laws eighty years ago but should have been since they were right and just.

     


    You speak of Christian principles but in the next sentence talk about the Golden Rule and I often find those two things to be opposites of one another. 

    Christian prinicples dictate that abortion, gayness, etc. are wrong and yet the Religious (far) Right are the first ones to treat others in a manner in which they wouldn't want to be treated. 

     

    Another example from my past:

    I tangentially knew a young man who showed every indication he was gay right from the time he was a toddler.  He played with dolls, pushed carriages, and dressed up in his mother's clothes.  He never had a girlfriend and when he graduated from HS he went to the west coast and became a gay activist.  During his time there he contracted AIDS and came home to be with his family to die. 

    These people came from a very small town where everyone knew everyone else's business - which is why he left in the first place - and when he came home everyone learned why he was there. 

    His family had always been a part of a fundamentalest congregation and the members of that congregation met and decided that the best way to handle it all was to show him the error of his ways by shunning him.  So they shunned him and his entire family.  They were no longer welcome in the church until he "repented his sins".  Church members who met his family on the street wouldn't speak to them.  He died at home with his mother taking care of him, and the church refused to allow the family to hold the ceremony there. 

    So where does "Do unto others..." fit into that?

    I agree that most people have a moral compass that tells them right from wrong.  The problem is that that compass points in different directions for different people. 

     



    That kind of story is all too common S5. The idea that its OK to be gay as long as you act straight in public as has been espoused by some here is another form of oppression. This country is coming around, led by the younger generation who are more tolerant of differences among people. There is no cogent arguement IMO that the gay minority are not an oppressed group in this country, one that has been unfairly discriminated against for hundreds of years. Change cannot happen soon enough.

     

    I also agree that we have beaten this topic into the ground.




    As you can see if you've followed this thread I've had several outwardly gay friends who were mistreated because of it.  They were good people and didn't deserve the treatment they got and it's a bit of a sore spot with me. 

    I've probably revealed too many of my feelings for a chat board here in the past couple of days, so no more from me on this topic.

    Thanks for the exchange of thoughts and ideas.   

     

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