Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents : but why would he talk trash about him if he still had to try and work w/ him? it's like this everywhere.........and players do not want "IN" or "OUT" - players want the MONEY$$$$$$$$$ when I negotiate deals for myself it is always about the money.  why?  because it is the only thing I can control.  Perks and working arrangements can ALWAYS be changed.  Salary can not.  So I negotiate the MONEY ONLY and I assume that the job will come with no benefits, no perks, no bonuses, no special arrangements and even that I will hate my boss (or they will change them on me) and all of my co-workers.......because really at the end of the day, it's about paying my bills and guess what?  I get to go home every night.....................
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]


    Have you read his stuff over the years? not buying it. 
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    Most players are complete mercenaries.  Look at Pujols.  He leaves one of the great baseball cities, where he just won a second championship.  He leaves fans that did not nothing but love him.  Why?  More money.

     
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    [QUOTE]Most players are complete mercenaries.  Look at Pujols.  He leaves one of the great baseball cities, where he just won a second championship.  He leaves fans that did not nothing but love him.  Why?  More money.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]


    and BIG ego, bob. 
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

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    [QUOTE]If we didn't make this deal, some FAs might still have been skeptical or demand no trade clauses. Both Beckett and CC wanted out, so there is no message being sent there, except a good one: if you want out, we will accomodate you. The AGon deal is messier and not a great message to send to future FAs, however, I am pretty sure that 95%+++ of all free agents will take the top dollar offer, or at least an offer within $1M a year. Also, we may not care for a year or two. We may not even seek out Hamilton, Greinke of Montero. (Napoli or Peavy if the CWS don't take his $22M option)
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]The issue with the Boston Red Sox as a destination has less to do with this trade and a lot more to do with just how crazy this market has been since the end of September 2011.

    The collapse brought the worst out in the market. It became a tabloid soap opera of the first order. Each of the guys traded I am sure are delighted to get out of town, not the least of which being Gonzalez.

    As players consider the RS they will need to consider just how invasive the media can be, how easily on field failings turn into personal attacks of off field issues, the down sides of playing in a 100 year old park etc. The RS "brand" has come full circle in a less than a year, which is remarkable to me.

    It will be a long reload IMHO. The RS farm system is not loaded and contrary to some folks feelings their success for 2003-2008 was not built on the farm system, it was augmented by that farm system. The 2004 champs were led by Pedro, Manny, Damon, Millar, Ortiz, Mueller, Schilling and Foulke. The 2007 champs had headliners like Manny, Ortiz, Drew, Lowell, Schilling, Beckett, Dice K, Crisp etc. None of those guys were developed in the farm system.

    I don't blame the RS ownership for blowing it up at this point but I hope folks realize that this is a 5 year process, if the RS get it right.
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents : and BIG ego, bob. 
    Posted by J-BAY[/QUOTE]

    Ego is tied to the money, I agree.  Also these players have agents who are going to persuade them to take the highest offer, along with family members etc.

    I remember Sabathia giving assurances to the Yankees and their fans that he wasn't going to exercise his opt-out.  I'll bet as soon as he said that his agent took him aside and said 'are you nuts man?'
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents : Ego is tied to the money, I agree.  Also these players have agents who are going to persuade them to take the highest offer, along with family members etc. I remember Sabathia giving assurances to the Yankees and their fans that he wasn't going to exercise his opt-out.  I'll bet as soon as he said that his agent took him aside and said 'are you nuts man?'
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]


    and the players union....get as much and as long, for the good of the game and the next guy. Along with PEDS, its been the downfall of the game, IMO
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents : Eric If you are the Dodgers, do you do the deal without Agon?  Of course not.  Losing Agon weakens the team in the short term, but he was overpaid, beginning a slow decline, and had a huge contract for 6 more years.  
    Posted by Encinitas[/QUOTE]

    I would like to know how you and others come to the conclusion the Agon was in a long slow decline. Many have been predicting Papi's long slow decline and he's still producing. 

    Hetch
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents : I didn't even include Ross in the equation of guys walking out. This is fantasy to think the Sox can mend the bad image it created. It's Toxic around here, and now it's toxic with agendas. Don't like it here-you're gone!!! But in baseball, I've seen that the guys who might be uncomfortable--find that winning gets you comfortable---Manny  is a great example of a player who had many reservations about the Fish Bowl, but adhered to his contract and played well. AGON was certainly earning his contract whether he was a good fit or not...
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]



    Oh Come on!

    In a year or two this will be old news.  Money talks and S------t walks.  And when and if this trade is absolutely final we will have had a lot of S------t walk in the name of Josh Beckett.   IMO, Agon isn't worth the money.  Crawford definitley is not worth the money.   Lackey needs to go somewhere too -Anywhere but here.

    How do you know that Future Free Agents won't want to play here?  If that is your opinion then that's fine because everyone is entitled to one.  But you state it as being fact.  NFW -IMO.

    BTW, regarding your Avatar, I've been a DIE HARD fan long enough to actually remember the infamous Danny Cater/Sparky Lyle trade.   I've been a fan 45 Years to be exact.

    This year was the end for me.   I could no longer be a fan of this team.  

    But you know what?  If this trade goes through, I'm back.

     
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    You're back, well accept 5 years of mediocrity before something happens as 5katz says. Listen, will you fans be as forgiving next year when the team still has BV as a manager and still is 10 games under .500, but this time with the added built-in excuse of LESS MLB TALENT. Go back to pre-Manny to find a Sox team so void of MLB talent. It's not even close, in fact this is the least-talented MLB team in Boston right now, right at this very instant than at any time in the Grady-Tito tenure.
     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    In one stroke the Sox have managed to magically make most of this board's negative posting go away...or did it?
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents:
    [QUOTE]You're back, well accept 5 years of mediocrity before something happens as 5katz says. Listen, will you fans be as forgiving next year when the team still has BV as a manager and still is 10 games under .500, but this time with the added built-in excuse of LESS MLB TALENT. Go back to pre-Manny to find a Sox team so void of MLB talent. It's not even close, in fact this is the least-talented MLB team in Boston right now, right at this very instant than at any time in the Grady-Tito tenure.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    I expect that the team WILL be worse next year. And I expect that Valentine will be back too. Beginning in 2014 improvement in our record will happen and by 2015, when our top prospects are mature, we will be back in the postseason again and ready for a run at a ring. The problems with the roster were very deep and there is really no way to correct Epstein's mistakes immediately. It took us five years to get here, and there is no one year solution available. This is a rebuilding process. The sooner it got started the sooner it could be completed. I am glad someone in the FO saw that without pitching it would have been just more of the same..........
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents:
    [QUOTE]with all that said, danny I think this has as much to do with the opinion Gonzalez and Crawford weren't comfortable here and never would have been. the FO finally recognized it and decide to act on it.  It's an environment you either love or hate, thrive or fail. They have the guaranteed money and are going to an environment better suited for them. Will it give pause to future free agents, who are strictly after the big contract or will they think twice about playing in the big market? Hard too say, may depend how the organization handles things going forward. They need to refocus on the team, as opposed to the brand. 
    Posted by J-BAY[/QUOTE]

    I agree that Adrian wasn't happy in Boston.  At least I have heard this mentioned several times by other Red Sox fans and the media.  Still not sure about Crawford since he has been injured, but he definitely had a terrible year his first year in Boston. 
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents:
    [QUOTE]You're back, well accept 5 years of mediocrity before something happens as 5katz says. Listen, will you fans be as forgiving next year when the team still has BV as a manager and still is 10 games under .500, but this time with the added built-in excuse of LESS MLB TALENT. Go back to pre-Manny to find a Sox team so void of MLB talent. It's not even close, in fact this is the least-talented MLB team in Boston right now, right at this very instant than at any time in the Grady-Tito tenure.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]


    I came back after all the years when the RS would play great up to the All Star break and then fade into oblivion.  

    I came back after the RS gave up a 14 Game Lead only to have  Mike Torrez give up a 3 Run Home Run to weak hitting Bucky Dent in the 1978 One Game Playoff between the Sox and the Yankees.

    I came back after flying high by attending Game 5 of the 1986 World Series and watch the Sox go up 3 Games to 2 over the Mets.  Then disaster happens in game 6 and game 7.  But, I still came back.

    Lastly, I came back this year after the RS had the biggest collapse in Baseball History in 2011.  

    There was a time during this year that I had thought perhaps Epstein had made a deal with the Devil for those Two World Series Championships.   BTW, I'm not going to apologyze for wanting to actually like the players on any team that I'm a fan of.

    We don't know that Beckett will ever get back to being a #1 Starter.  In any event, if things had remained the same, I believe the team would have remained mediocre anyway because of being handcuffed by the massive contracts of these players. 

    Look, Agon is probably getting a bad rap.  Crawford is a decent guy who was given an outrageous amount of money.  I can't blame him or any of these guys for taking the money that was offered.  

    But if it takes getting rid of these two guys in order to get rid of Beckett than so be it.  

    Bobby V is probably an a--------hle.  But he inherited an absolute horror show. Under today's conditions, I don't know if anybody could have done better.  

    So the bottom line is yes I'll be back.   Will you?


     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    The wrong message was sent last few seasons with the way they treated players. THis is probably the road to take to change perceptions about the organisation and its fan base.
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents:
    [QUOTE]Most high priced few agents only care about one thing.  Themselves; ego and $$.
    Posted by MichFan[/QUOTE]+1000... i dont see how its hurt the marlins and they've don eit like 10 times.. heck they did it after winning actual rings.. no effect whatsoever.. if anything, it helps overall.. we pay you to promote a winning culture and to actually win while carrying your weight on the field. if you dont, you may not be here. if you do, you will... thats y papi is still around! prettty clear and fair stuff. if we were in the mix, no way anyone is gone incl beckett (if a .500 4th starter type pitcher)...
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    How are they going to replace Punto?
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents : AGon last four years:  HRS:  40, 31, 27, 15;  BB:  119, 93, 74, 31; OB: .407, .393, .410, .343; SLG: .551, .511, .548,.469.  This is not fall off the cliff decline, but it is noteworthy. Papi is producing but at a much lower level.  Splitting his 10 year Sox career into halves, he averaged  42 HRs and 128 RBIs from 2003-2007.  Since then he has averaged 28/96 from 2008-11.  He will come in even lower in 2012.  His best year in the last five was weaker than the worst year in the first five.  That is the definition of long, slow decline.  
    Posted by Encinitas[/QUOTE]Using Ortiz may not have been fair. Spliting his RS career into two 5 year segments only works if you also adjust for league averages as well. It perhaps weakens the A-Gon argument you make.

    But Gonzo has not produced the power numbers that were forecast when he was traded to Boston.

    My guess is that Beckett has a pretty good year next year and that Gonzo has an excellent year. Crawford who knows but it will be a lot better than his 2011 RS debut.

    The situation in Boston got toxic and it was time for a rest I suppose. My guess this isn't over. Papi is likely to go elsewhere where he can have a shot at winning in his final years of MLB. Ellsbury should probably be traded because the RS don't need t pay his next arbitration award to finish .500 or lower. Given that by the time the RS are a AL East contender again Lester will no longer be under their control they should move him if they can get a decent return.

    The RS will be the KC Royals for a few years now IF they get lucky in their player development. It is a very sad and ugly way for golden era in RS baseball to have ended and watching it since last September has been painful.    
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    In Response to Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents:
    [QUOTE]I completely get, understand, and even in some respects know why the Sox FO did this deal. I think there were multiple factors--with PR/fan appeasement one of them in a last-chance effort by management to show the Sox fans "they do care." But it followed yet another brand of systematic spinning through the media of Beckett and AGON being selfish/me-me guys and CC being out of touch with managers (first Tito and now BV) and out of touch with rehab--i.e. injury prone-- Most of us have said that the Sox need to find a new home for Beckett due to his just lack of performance (and idea that he led the Chicken/Beer Brigade and the Collapse of 2011--certainly the poster child for it). Many have talked about CC's albatross to the Sox payroll--105 million left for 5 years--so naturally there was always the talk of jettisoning him. But AGON has been the guy that has been going through a litany of non-baseball related drama--created by both the Sox FO and the media. It started with last year's "god's will" comments, and escalated with this Pesky Funeral and the recent quotes by AGON about not being allowed to just play. But in his case, he's been one of the best hitters in all of MLB, he supposedely was tied to Sox for many years--and I liked that luxury of having a marquee hitter in a lineup that has not been healthy for a long time. But here's the real problem. Everyone is celebrating in Boston and cracking champagne bottles like all the ills are gone, and forgetting that part of baseball is luring big-name players or big-name performers to town to help the team win a WS title. Those days are over as of right now. First, the message to Ellsbury and Ortiz is that the Sox don't care about the players, and especially don't care about long-term contracts. Both will leave, whether some of you feel they should is a different thread. I don't think the Sox can survive without Ellsbury and Ortiz in the lineup--especially for 2013. I don't know if they can survive without AGON in the lineup--and no replacement for him. Makes the Youkilis trade all the more disappointing. But bottom line, the Sox have established that if you don't perform as a free agent signing, we'll get rid of you, and EVEN IF YOU PERFORM ON THE FIELD--WE'LL STILL GET RID OF YOU.  There is no security for Sox potential free agents. Thus, as BV said, no one will want to sign in Boston. You will see this as we clamour for SPs out there. It will be bargain basement guys who will sign and that's it. Maybe you want mediocrity in Boston, but I happen to want to see big names...Big names won WS titles for Sox--Schilling, Pedro, Manny, Ortiz-- What the Sox have created is open payroll but a message that don't come here. It's toxic. The environment is toxic, the free agents don't have security, and the management clearly look out for themselves before the players. Not the the message you want to send to a potential SP who is needed to help the Sox win.....Instead, sure the team will build with young talent, but Pittsburgh, Oakland and Kansas City have done that for years and years and nothing to show for it. The reality is that the Sox are a big-market team acting small market and now showing the rest of MLB that we don't want free agent talent, and we certainly don't want to keep our side of the bargain---forget your security if you are a Sox. Beware of the Sox PR dept and the media. If I was a free agent, no way would I want to be a Sox......That's a bad message to send if you have a goal to win. 
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]Free agents go to the highest bidder 90% of the time. This message will roll off their backs.
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    Papi's OPS the last 4 years:
    2009   .794
    2010   .899
    2011   .953
    2012  1.026
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    In Response to Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents:
    [QUOTE]I completely get, understand, and even in some respects know why the Sox FO did this deal. I think there were multiple factors--with PR/fan appeasement one of them in a last-chance effort by management to show the Sox fans "they do care." But it followed yet another brand of systematic spinning through the media of Beckett and AGON being selfish/me-me guys and CC being out of touch with managers (first Tito and now BV) and out of touch with rehab--i.e. injury prone-- Most of us have said that the Sox need to find a new home for Beckett due to his just lack of performance (and idea that he led the Chicken/Beer Brigade and the Collapse of 2011--certainly the poster child for it). Many have talked about CC's albatross to the Sox payroll--105 million left for 5 years--so naturally there was always the talk of jettisoning him. But AGON has been the guy that has been going through a litany of non-baseball related drama--created by both the Sox FO and the media. It started with last year's "god's will" comments, and escalated with this Pesky Funeral and the recent quotes by AGON about not being allowed to just play. But in his case, he's been one of the best hitters in all of MLB, he supposedely was tied to Sox for many years--and I liked that luxury of having a marquee hitter in a lineup that has not been healthy for a long time. But here's the real problem. Everyone is celebrating in Boston and cracking champagne bottles like all the ills are gone, and forgetting that part of baseball is luring big-name players or big-name performers to town to help the team win a WS title. Those days are over as of right now. First, the message to Ellsbury and Ortiz is that the Sox don't care about the players, and especially don't care about long-term contracts. Both will leave, whether some of you feel they should is a different thread. I don't think the Sox can survive without Ellsbury and Ortiz in the lineup--especially for 2013. I don't know if they can survive without AGON in the lineup--and no replacement for him. Makes the Youkilis trade all the more disappointing. But bottom line, the Sox have established that if you don't perform as a free agent signing, we'll get rid of you, and EVEN IF YOU PERFORM ON THE FIELD--WE'LL STILL GET RID OF YOU.  There is no security for Sox potential free agents. Thus, as BV said, no one will want to sign in Boston. You will see this as we clamour for SPs out there. It will be bargain basement guys who will sign and that's it. Maybe you want mediocrity in Boston, but I happen to want to see big names...Big names won WS titles for Sox--Schilling, Pedro, Manny, Ortiz-- What the Sox have created is open payroll but a message that don't come here. It's toxic. The environment is toxic, the free agents don't have security, and the management clearly look out for themselves before the players. Not the the message you want to send to a potential SP who is needed to help the Sox win.....Instead, sure the team will build with young talent, but Pittsburgh, Oakland and Kansas City have done that for years and years and nothing to show for it. The reality is that the Sox are a big-market team acting small market and now showing the rest of MLB that we don't want free agent talent, and we certainly don't want to keep our side of the bargain---forget your security if you are a Sox. Beware of the Sox PR dept and the media. If I was a free agent, no way would I want to be a Sox......That's a bad message to send if you have a goal to win. 
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

         What a croc! This was as good an analysis of this deal as Danny Cater was a player for the Sox.

         These high priced, over-paid prima-donnas were, with the exdeption opf A-Gon, doing nothing but collecting their checks. Good riddance to them, and other like them!  
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents : I didn't even include Ross in the equation of guys walking out. This is fantasy to think the Sox can mend the bad image it created. It's Toxic around here, and now it's toxic with agendas. Don't like it here-you're gone!!! But in baseball, I've seen that the guys who might be uncomfortable--find that winning gets you comfortable---Manny  is a great example of a player who had many reservations about the Fish Bowl, but adhered to his contract and played well. AGON was certainly earning his contract whether he was a good fit or not...
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    if you think manny ADHERED to his contract, then you are delusional....he consistently violated Red Sox and MLB rules which is why he was shown the door by every organization after he days with Cleveland....he was a great a hitter but a lazy, self-centered, cheating prikc.....like beckett, he reached the point of being a complete azzwipe and a cancer to the team - u dont keep those guys around...
     
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    Re: Deal Might Be Right Move, But Sends Wrong Message To Future Free Agents

    I'm OK with Papi leaving....time for us to abandon the 1990s DH mode and get younger & more flexible at the position....his 20 mil is better spent elsewhere....
     

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