Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    Let me straighten all of you out...please...

    The question of America's decision to drop the bombs on Japan has been debated since BEFORE it was dropped...who was the first American opposed to dropping what he called "those awful weapons"? -Commander of Allied Forces and future pres DD Eisenhower...he questioned the wisdom of relying on a new weapon when American bombers alread had no resistence to their runs......

    You guys give Oliver Stone credit for this revisionist view of Hiroshima/Nagasaki but its been around forever....here are the facts and I will let you decide....like I do my students....

    Pro for dropping the bomb:

    Japan started the war, committed atrocities in bataan/nanking, and had a bushido code that would have cost millions of their OWN lives to invade

    Truman would have been impeached for not using a war weapon that cost 2 billion that could of, and ended up, shortening the war

    Anti A bomb

    japan was done militarily and trying to ask for peace with one condition - keep the emporer as a figurehead...we refused and ended up doing that anyways....

    it was aimed at soviets and dropped to prevent their inclusion into the pacific theater

    There are so many more facts in this debate - including that Truman, once he was informed of the project" reveled in its power to make Stalin back down (but stalin already knew because of spies)....

    this is a condensed version of my lesson...but just because Oliver Stone's name is attached to it, that is no reason to not take it seriously....btw my opinion is that it was a sound decision but history is subjective, not natural law

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to tom-uk's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Typical conversation around here when Dec. 7th rolls around:

    Yank  "You would be talking German if it weren't for us".

    Brit  "Thanks for coming late to the party".

    -Dec 11, 1941: Germany and Italy declare war on US

    Germany and Italy have announced they are at war with the United States. America immediately responded by declaring war on the two Axis powers.

    -Churchill "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing—after they’ve tried everything else".

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

    When the American forces were in Great Britain preparing for D-Day they were dating local girls.

    The British soldiers not happy with the scene said the Americans were overpaid, over sexed and over here.

    The American soldiers responded to the anger of the Brits saying it was because they are under paid under sexed and under Ike. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to tom-uk's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Typical conversation around here when Dec. 7th rolls around:

    Yank  "You would be talking German if it weren't for us".

    Brit  "Thanks for coming late to the party".

    -Dec 11, 1941: Germany and Italy declare war on US

    Germany and Italy have announced they are at war with the United States. America immediately responded by declaring war on the two Axis powers.

    -Churchill "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing—after they’ve tried everything else".

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Lend Lease Tom....we may not have commited Men to war until December. but Billions of Dollars before in Military supplies(almost a trillion in todays dollars) earlier in 1941. If we had done two years earlier the Brits might have been able to stem Germany's advance by themselves.  

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Let me straighten all of you out...please...

    The question of America's decision to drop the bombs on Japan has been questioned since BEFORE it was dropped...who was the first American opposed to dropping what he called "those awful weapons"? -Commander of Allied Forces and future pres DD Eisenhower...he questioned the wisdom of relying on a new weapon when American bombers alread had no resistence to their runs......

    You guys give Oliver Stone credit for this revisionist view of Hiroshima/Nagasaki but its been around forever....here are the facts and I will let you decide....like I do my students....

    Pro for dropping the bomb:

    Japan started the war, committed atrocities in bataan/nanking, and had a bushido code that would have cost millions of their OWN lives to invade

    Truman would have been impeached for not using a war weapon that cost 2 billion that could of, and ended up, shortening the war

    Anti A bomb

    japan was done militarily and trying to ask for peace with one condition - keep the emporer as a figurehead...we refused and ended up doing that anyways....

    it was aimed at soviets and dropped to prevent their inclusion into the pacific theater

    There are so many more facts in this debate - including that Truman, once he was informed of the project" reveled in its power to make Stalin back down (but stalin already knew because of spies)....

    this is a condensed version of my lesson...but just because Oliver Stone's name is attached to it, that is no reason to not take it seriously....btw my opinion is that it was a sound decision but history is subjective, not natural law

    [/QUOTE]


    i also agree that it was a necessary action. the Japanese peoples were extremely devout in their beliefs. i rememeber my history teachers telling me stories of entire villiages offing themselves if allied forces took control of their island. in the long run it saved the lives of many on BOTH sides but at the cost of an immediate death of thousands and the lingering effects of radiation poisioning (which is some cases was worse than death).

    the things i really find attrocious were the internment camps we threw japanese people living in the US into.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Actually freedom is an entitlement and I say this as a man that served my hitch in the military. All human beings are entitled to be free because that's how God created us. To say or think otherwise is to buy into the myth being sold by authoritarian types the whole world 'round.

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Well said, Carnie ... well said indeed.

     

     

     

     

    As far as the "real" reason for dropping the A-bomb and the angst that people have over that decision, I personally find it a bit strange.  Don't get me wrong, the use of nuclear weapons in this day and age is horrific and nearly unthinkable.  But those who cite the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima as a great and unrivaled evil ignore the circumstances.  WWII was not a war fought only on the battle field between soldiers -- civilians died by the millions.  Massive Allied air raids using conventional weapons had already decimated numerous cities in Japan and Germany causing hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties.  The only difference between Dresden and Hiroshima is the number of planes and bombs involved.  It cannot be said with certainty that the use of the A-bomb caused fewer civilian casualties than the other alternatives being considered, but that is most likely the case.

     

     

     

    Let us pray the world never sees another conflict on that scale.

     

     

     

     

    "know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."    -Albert Einstein

     

     

     

     

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    Lend Lease Tom....we may not have commited Men to war until December. but Billions of Dollars before in Military supplies(almost a trillion in todays dollars) earlier in 1941. If we had done two years earlier the Brits might have been able to stem Germany's advance by themselves.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Good point Tom, this article explains that the US public was unhappy about unpaid UK WWI debts.  When I tell a Brit that many "non-political" Americans did not want to see their children sent off to die in ANOTHER European war, the Brits has never considered that view.  BBC 2006:

    On 31 December (2006), the UK will make a payment of about $83m (£45.5m) to the US and so discharge the last of its loans from World War II from its transatlantic ally.

    "In a nutshell, everything we got from America in World War II was free," says economic historian Professor Mark Harrison, of Warwick University.

    "The loan was really to help Britain through the consequences of post-war adjustment, rather than the war itself. This position was different from World War I, where money was lent for the war effort itself."

    Britain had spent a great deal of money at the beginning of the war, under the US cash-and-carry scheme, which saw straight payments for materiel. There was also trading of territory for equipment on terms that have attracted much criticism in the years since. By 1941, Britain was in a parlous financial state and Lend-Lease was eventually introduced.

    ....the US had effectively donated equipment for the war effort, but anything left over in Britain at the end of hostilities and still needed would have to be paid for.

    But the price would please a bargain hunter - the US only wanted one-tenth of the production cost of the equipment and would lend the money to pay for it.

    And while the UK dutifully pays off its World War II debts, those from World War I remain resolutely unpaid. And are by no means trifling. In 1934, Britain owed the US $4.4bn of World War I debt (about £866m at 1934 exchange rates). Adjusted by the Retail Price Index, a typical measure of inflation, £866m would equate to £40bn now, and if adjusted by the growth of GDP, to about £225bn. And although Britain was unable to pay its debts, it was also owed the whacking sum of £2.3bn.

    "In a 1945 state department survey on the US public's attitudes to its wartime allies, Britain was one of the least trusted countries," says Dr Clavin.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4757181.stm

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    [/QUOTE]

    And the last 4 years has opened my eyes to just how precious our Country & FREEDOM really are and how the life that we know is under attack, from within !!!!!

    [/QUOTE]


    Amen, brother.  Under attack from within is exactly right.  Unfortunately, you just don't understand that your type are the ones threatening our freedom and way of life.  Hint: 'your type' does not equal republicans; it means extremists who brand anyone of different political thinking as an enemy of the state.  You'd think McCarthy might have taught us something but, alas, memories are short.  And no, I am not a democrat and I did not vote for Obama.

     

    Freedom is defended by soldiers ... and protesters, voters and activists.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to 111SoxFan111's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [/QUOTE]

    And the last 4 years has opened my eyes to just how precious our Country & FREEDOM really are and how the life that we know is under attack, from within !!!!!

    [/QUOTE]


    Amen, brother.  Under attack from within is exactly right.  Unfortunately, you just don't understand that your type are the ones threatening our freedom and way of life.  Hint: 'your type' does not equal republicans; it means extremists who brand anyone of different political thinking as an enemy of the state.  You'd think McCarthy might have taught us something but, alas, memories are short.  And no, I am not a democrat and I did not vote for Obama.

     

    Freedom is defended by soldiers ... and protesters, voters and activists.

    [/QUOTE]


    then your a moonbat....whatever the hell that is

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to tom-uk's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Lend Lease Tom....we may not have commited Men to war until December. but Billions of Dollars before in Military supplies(almost a trillion in todays dollars) earlier in 1941. If we had done two years earlier the Brits might have been able to stem Germany's advance by themselves.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Good point Tom, this article explains that the US public was unhappy about unpaid UK WWI debts.  When I tell a Brit that many "non-political" Americans did not want to see their children sent off to die in ANOTHER European war, the Brits has never considered that view.  BBC 2006:

    On 31 December (2006), the UK will make a payment of about $83m (£45.5m) to the US and so discharge the last of its loans from World War II from its transatlantic ally.

    "In a nutshell, everything we got from America in World War II was free," says economic historian Professor Mark Harrison, of Warwick University.

    "The loan was really to help Britain through the consequences of post-war adjustment, rather than the war itself. This position was different from World War I, where money was lent for the war effort itself."

    Britain had spent a great deal of money at the beginning of the war, under the US cash-and-carry scheme, which saw straight payments for materiel. There was also trading of territory for equipment on terms that have attracted much criticism in the years since. By 1941, Britain was in a parlous financial state and Lend-Lease was eventually introduced.

    ....the US had effectively donated equipment for the war effort, but anything left over in Britain at the end of hostilities and still needed would have to be paid for.

    But the price would please a bargain hunter - the US only wanted one-tenth of the production cost of the equipment and would lend the money to pay for it.

    And while the UK dutifully pays off its World War II debts, those from World War I remain resolutely unpaid. And are by no means trifling. In 1934, Britain owed the US $4.4bn of World War I debt (about £866m at 1934 exchange rates). Adjusted by the Retail Price Index, a typical measure of inflation, £866m would equate to £40bn now, and if adjusted by the growth of GDP, to about £225bn. And although Britain was unable to pay its debts, it was also owed the whacking sum of £2.3bn.

    "In a 1945 state department survey on the US public's attitudes to its wartime allies, Britain was one of the least trusted countries," says Dr Clavin.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4757181.stm

    Good Article Tom. Unfortuantely, it was an Ill informed US public that did not want to get involved. German Atrocities seemed to be pretty well known, but most of it was never reported to the American Public.....and in Congress, even before the War, Republicans were more worried about Communism then they were about Hitler.....I would bet most Americans how no idea how devastating the Blitzkrieg was in England. Add that to the fact that we were a country who had were still struggling to get out of a Depression...it was a perfect storm of Apathy

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Strangeglove's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This may be the wrong place to ask this question,but, I am curious about what some of you historians feel about this....I have been watching a lot of, but not all, of Oliver Stone's History of America. Lots of what he says about our history is really eye opening.

    I believe he claims that our primary reason for dropping the Atomic Bomb(s) was bogus. That, in fact, our line  "the war would have otherwise gone on for another 2 years" is otherwise is bogus. Do you think that is true?

    The dissing of President Truman, such as his constant threat to use the bomb after the war against Russia, and other negative stuff regarding him and subsequent "Leaders" , if true, really makes you wonder about things. Like, who the hell is/was actually running our ship??

    I wonder what the truth really is. Help me out if you can. Thanks.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Hundreds of thousand of American boys would have lost their lives invading japan and the surrounding islands.

    The japanese were fanatics and were going to fight to the last man.

     

    [/QUOTE]Thank You & GOD BLESS you and AMERICA TOO !!!

    [/QUOTE]

    And the same to you Bill.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to tom-uk's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Typical conversation around here when Dec. 7th rolls around:

    Yank  "You would be talking German if it weren't for us".

    Brit  "Thanks for coming late to the party".

    -Dec 11, 1941: Germany and Italy declare war on US

    Germany and Italy have announced they are at war with the United States. America immediately responded by declaring war on the two Axis powers.

    -Churchill "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing—after they’ve tried everything else".

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

    When the American forces were in Great Britain preparing for D-Day they were dating local girls.

    The British soldiers not happy with the scene said the Americans were overpaid, over sexed and over here.

    The American soldiers responded to the anger of the Brits saying it was because they are under paid under sexed and under Ike. 

    [/QUOTE]
    why would any sane american want to jump right in and fight in europe again after just twenty years passed in which the same nations killed 10 million of their own citizens?

    seriously, our allies were lucky we didnt take that nonsense off....like many wanted to do

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from gr82bme. Show gr82bme's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    If you want the truth or at least a better grasp of what went on, get a hold of some history books, don't look for it on T.V. or movies or the internet

    ...actually, do we ever really know what's true and what isn't?

    We have had controversial subjects like the Kennedy assassination,the disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa,Watergate,the John Lennon assassination  the UFO landings in Roswell, the decision not to resign Carlton Fisk ( gotta keep a little Red Sox subject matter here to make it a legit topic for these boards...right???), do we really know the whole truth about all these events?

    I find it disturbing that anyone would try to throw ol' Harry Truman under the bus. The freakin; guy was kept in the dark about the Atom bomb while he was only a VP, then when th ebig guy kicks off, they dump it in his lap....and now he has to make one of the most difficult decsions anyone has ever made.....let thousands , maybe millions more die in a war that can only have one result....or drop the bomb and while killing and exposing millions of people to radiation, effectively end a war that has been going on for years....I am just glad that decision was not mine to make...Harry Truman was put in a no-win situation , but he had to decide between two evils.

    [/QUOTE]


    Good point, and if you think about it, Truman made four very tough decisions - the one you mentioned, the firing of MacArthur who was the most popular man in America at the time, desegregating the military, and appointing afro-American judges to federal benches.  Most of these, he did AGAINST the advice of his counsel/appointees.  When everyone starts talking about the most influencial civil-rights people, I'm always shocked that he's not mentioned.

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to 111SoxFan111's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [/QUOTE]

    And the last 4 years has opened my eyes to just how precious our Country & FREEDOM really are and how the life that we know is under attack, from within !!!!!

    [/QUOTE]


    Amen, brother.  Under attack from within is exactly right.  Unfortunately, you just don't understand that your type are the ones threatening our freedom and way of life.  Hint: 'your type' does not equal republicans; it means extremists who brand anyone of different political thinking as an enemy of the state.  You'd think McCarthy might have taught us something but, alas, memories are short.  And no, I am not a democrat and I did not vote for Obama.

     

    Freedom is defended by soldiers ... and protesters, voters and activists.

    [/QUOTE]Just wondering what Mr. McCarthy would say today about the "BIG O" & COMPANY ??????


    [/QUOTE]


    Who cares what "tailgunner joe" would have said about anything? The HUAC hearings remain one of the darkest stains on American history.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    For some reason , there are Americans who always want to spin things in ways that make the U.S. look bad.  I don't know if it is guilt or self loathing , but it is a strange phenomenon.  I think much of it comes out of the universities teachings.  There will always be things that are wrong , but some seem to be a little too eager to always look at history in ways that put America in a negative light. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    For some reason , there are Americans who always want to spin things in ways that make the U.S. look bad.  I don't know if it is guilt or self loathing , but it is a strange phenomenon.  I think much of it comes out of the universities teachings.  There will always be things that are wrong , but some seem to be a little too eager to always look at history in ways that put America in a negative light. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Kind of like Red Sox fans looking at Ben C.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to mef429's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to 111SoxFan111's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [/QUOTE]

    And the last 4 years has opened my eyes to just how precious our Country & FREEDOM really are and how the life that we know is under attack, from within !!!!!

    [/QUOTE]


    Amen, brother.  Under attack from within is exactly right.  Unfortunately, you just don't understand that your type are the ones threatening our freedom and way of life.  Hint: 'your type' does not equal republicans; it means extremists who brand anyone of different political thinking as an enemy of the state.  You'd think McCarthy might have taught us something but, alas, memories are short.  And no, I am not a democrat and I did not vote for Obama.

     

    Freedom is defended by soldiers ... and protesters, voters and activists.

    [/QUOTE]


    then your a moonbat....whatever the hell that is

    [/QUOTE]  mef429.........  Good comeback, son !!!


    [/QUOTE]

    please do not call me "son". i find it scary that we share ANY genetic similliarities and shudder at the thought of sharing half my DNA with you..

    but i could say things like as dad would say "TRANSFORMATION!!!! BLOCKBUSTER!!!!!!!! PLAY THE KIDS!!! DOWN WITH THE BIG O!!!!!!!!!!!!"

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    For some reason , there are Americans who always want to spin things in ways that make the U.S. look bad.  I don't know if it is guilt or self loathing , but it is a strange phenomenon.  I think much of it comes out of the universities teachings.  There will always be things that are wrong , but some seem to be a little too eager to always look at history in ways that put America in a negative light. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Human beings aren't infallible...and the U.S.A. isn't exempt from that. Recognizing this doesn't mean you don't live your country -- IMO, it means you love it enough to hold it to a higher standard and not whitewash its faults and mistakes.

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Bill, the American people want something for nothing from someone else, that's why. It used to be they came to the Nation of our founding fathers for a chance, not a guarantee, that hard work would give them a better life than the colllectivist and dictator States they were fleeing. Now they come for the entitlments and to work on the side and cheat the welfare State stystem.

    This Nation can't be a Welfare State and a Nation of opportunity to seek private property and economic propserity for individuals. It's either/or, and it's going to collapse under the weight of the debt of the entitlments and the welfare State. What will emerge will be what has taken place many times in other collectivist States of world history. 

    [/QUOTE]

    I can't think of a single thing you have that I, or any sane person, would want. Free or otherwise. Contrary to what passes for a thought in that walnut sized thing you call a brain, not everyone in the USA holds the acquisition of money as their highest personal goal, and the thing that all people should be judged by.

     
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