Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to Drewski5's comment:
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    In response to georom4's comment:
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    I think Bill should go the Law route and build up an ARMY!

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    Im going to go out on a limb.  It would be more like a Navy.

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    duh! good catch Drewski! lol

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    this thread warms my heart as a history teacher (even the batchit crazy neocon responses)  thanks for caring all on this sacred anniversary....good stuff

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from gr82bme. Show gr82bme's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to carnie's comment:
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    In response to gr82bme's comment:
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    In response to carnie's comment:
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    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
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     not everyone in the USA holds the acquisition of money as their highest personal goal, and the thing that all people should be judged by.

    If the entitlment State wasn't greasing your lazy palms, you would actually be motivated to acquire money and pay or bills. All people should be judged by the standard of sloth and envy, which is the Democrat Party federal class identity politics calling card that attract losers like you.

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    And precisely what service have you ever rendered our country softlaw? Oh, that's right. Helping people avoid paying their taxes. You are a great American sir.

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    Carnie, aren't you the great and benevalent one.  I'm certainly not siding with lawyer-boy or whatever the heck he really is, but the tones of your postings are just as snarky as his - only his at their root musings make sense.  Hey, all people who work hard for a living and have attained some wealth are crapola - I get it.  Here's the great thing about what's going to be coming down the financial turnpike - those of us who manage our finances well will somehow get over even a year or two long period of financial strife.  The lay-abouts who "hate" the doers of this country so much will still be in a bind.  We can help ourselves through bad times through shear will and sacrifice.  But the do-nothings will still be broke.....and doing nothing but cry about how the rich are holdin' them down.  Egads!

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    So you agree with the alleged lawyer that anyone even slightly to the left of Joe McCarthy is a lazy layabout who would starve if it weren't for their monthly welfare check? Well, just so you know I've never been on welfare and I've worked all my life and paid my taxes. I also served my country in the military, so I feel I've earned the right to state my opinion and to vote my conscience. And when did I ever state that I thought that anyone who has attained wealth was crapola? What I said was that some people, myself included, believe that there are higher standards in life than the acquisition of money. And ironically enough it also says that in the Bible that so many right wingers are so fond of saying should be the governing principle of this country. Or did you miss the part where it says that the love of money is the root of all evil? And casey, there's no use pointing out facts to these clowns, as they just ignore facts that they don't agree with. Also I can guarantee that if Eisenhower were president now the right would hate him. The top tax rate was consistently over 30% during his presidency after all. And wit that I'm done with this thread. There's a reason I try to avoid talking politics on the baseball board.

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    My comments were based on the totality and tone of your posts.  Please spare me the biblical references, which hard left wingers (you brought up "wings") only cite passages that support their mindsets - ain't a "right" wing thing only.  I find it amusing that the political minds that support deletion of anything biblical out of the political/governmental and educational discourse are so quick to refer to it.  Consider, the left feels that anyone who supports creationism is a loon - evolution is the answer.  I agree with this, however, evolution is  about survival of the fittest.  No guarantees of success in ye' olde evolution - yet the left wants to guarantee favorable outcomes despite individual choices that run contrary to favorability.  Please spare me the (paraphrased) "I served my country so I got a right to my opinion."  I never said you didn't have that right whether you served or not - you're an American (my assumption) -  it's your right as a citizen.  In fact, I served my country also -  for 30 years - and whether or not I agree with your point of view I believe heart and sole in your right to have it - but I have the right to disagree with it and state that fact.  At the end of the day, the overwhelming majority of folks had "access" to the same resources and the ability to make similar choices as "rich" folks.  The fact that they didn't use or make them is on them, not the folks who did. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    this thread warms my heart as a history teacher (even the batchit crazy neocon responses)  thanks for caring all on this sacred anniversary....good stuff

    [/QUOTE]  Gerome,  Help me out here......  I bet that Dec. 7th 1941 is not even covered in  history class in many public schools today !!

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    not true Bill...it has to be becaue not only is it important but almost everyone has a family member who was in it (greatgrandpa etc)...also the kids LOVE learning about it because of the abomb, hitler, and yes pearl harbor.....it is the hilight of the semester for many kids - almost all are truly interested...

     

    when i take the kids to the freedom trail every fall, i make them stop by the Holocaust memorial by Quincy market and read them the quote about hitler coming after each group and no one speaking out...that really moves them...

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    not true Bill...it has to be becaue not only is it important but almost everyone has a family member who was in it (greatgrandpa etc)...also the kids LOVE learning about it because of the abomb, hitler, and yes pearl harbor.....it is the hilight of the semester for many kids - almost all are truly interested...

     

    when i take the kids to the freedom trail every fall, i make them stop by the Holocaust memorial by Quincy market and read them the quote about hitler coming after each group and no one speaking out...that really moves them...

    [/QUOTE]Glad to hear that.........  I hope there are many more history teachers out there like you !!    Thanks again.....


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    not true Bill...it has to be becaue not only is it important but almost everyone has a family member who was in it (greatgrandpa etc)...also the kids LOVE learning about it because of the abomb, hitler, and yes pearl harbor.....it is the hilight of the semester for many kids - almost all are truly interested...

     

    when i take the kids to the freedom trail every fall, i make them stop by the Holocaust memorial by Quincy market and read them the quote about hitler coming after each group and no one speaking out...that really moves them...

    [/QUOTE]

    Good work, G

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to Drewski5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    not true Bill...it has to be becaue not only is it important but almost everyone has a family member who was in it (greatgrandpa etc)...also the kids LOVE learning about it because of the abomb, hitler, and yes pearl harbor.....it is the hilight of the semester for many kids - almost all are truly interested...

     

    when i take the kids to the freedom trail every fall, i make them stop by the Holocaust memorial by Quincy market and read them the quote about hitler coming after each group and no one speaking out...that really moves them...

    [/QUOTE]

    Good work, G

    [/QUOTE]

    ty drewski....i just wish folks would not assume that kids dont care about learning their past/values...they do

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to xxxcrwn's comment:
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    In response to dannycater's comment:
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    Oliver Stone I'm pretty sure was on the grassy noll and if I'm correct also stood within feet of Abraham Lincoln at Ford's Theatre. Or was that Zelig?

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     History gets rewritten often, mostly to avoid other foreseeable problems.

     As for the A-bombs, Truman made the right call. The Japanese were the aggressors, & still to this day have never apologized for attacking Pearl Harbor or invading the Aleutian Islands. They were just as brutal as the Germans, repeating many of the same atrocities like labor camps & genocide. Yet, for some odd reason they are painted in totally different lights. Amazing.

    [/QUOTE]

    They were actually worse in some regards.  Like the Germans, they considered other races to be sub-species.  And what they did to the Koreans and Chinese was atrocious.  And at least the Germans were smart enough to treat our POWs decently.  I don't know the exact numbers, but the survival rates under the Germans v the Japanese was on a sclae of 70:1.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    not true Bill...it has to be becaue not only is it important but almost everyone has a family member who was in it (greatgrandpa etc)...also the kids LOVE learning about it because of the abomb, hitler, and yes pearl harbor.....it is the hilight of the semester for many kids - almost all are truly interested...

     

    when i take the kids to the freedom trail every fall, i make them stop by the Holocaust memorial by Quincy market and read them the quote about hitler coming after each group and no one speaking out...that really moves them...

    [/QUOTE]

    Excellent!  Let them see everything and make up their own minds.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to xxxcrwn's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Oliver Stone I'm pretty sure was on the grassy noll and if I'm correct also stood within feet of Abraham Lincoln at Ford's Theatre. Or was that Zelig?

    [/QUOTE]
    abso true...the japanese did not exterminate on the large scale like the germans did the jews, but their numbers were also horrific and done in bloodsport style by bayonetting, decapitating, and raping the enemy...see nanking on google and be ready to become outraged...hiroshima was in many ways just desserts for these butchers....too bad the bomb couldnt have just targeted the military and their enablers...but civilians everywhere suffered, not just on these two days of a bombs

     History gets rewritten often, mostly to avoid other foreseeable problems.

     As for the A-bombs, Truman made the right call. The Japanese were the aggressors, & still to this day have never apologized for attacking Pearl Harbor or invading the Aleutian Islands. They were just as brutal as the Germans, repeating many of the same atrocities like labor camps & genocide. Yet, for some odd reason they are painted in totally different lights. Amazing.

    [/QUOTE]

    They were actually worse in some regards.  Like the Germans, they considered other races to be sub-species.  And what they did to the Koreans and Chinese was atrocious.  And at least the Germans were smart enough to treat our POWs decently.  I don't know the exact numbers, but the survival rates under the Germans v the Japanese was on a sclae of 70:1.

    [/QUOTE]


     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Drewski5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    not true Bill...it has to be becaue not only is it important but almost everyone has a family member who was in it (greatgrandpa etc)...also the kids LOVE learning about it because of the abomb, hitler, and yes pearl harbor.....it is the hilight of the semester for many kids - almost all are truly interested...

     

    when i take the kids to the freedom trail every fall, i make them stop by the Holocaust memorial by Quincy market and read them the quote about hitler coming after each group and no one speaking out...that really moves them...

    [/QUOTE]

    Good work, G

    [/QUOTE]

    ty drewski....i just wish folks would not assume that kids dont care about learning their past/values...they do

    [/QUOTE]iIt's not the kids that concern me......  It's the administration of the lib/left/soc/rad/moonbats that set the standards for the classroom teacher !!!!

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    not true Bill...it has to be becaue not only is it important but almost everyone has a family member who was in it (greatgrandpa etc)...also the kids LOVE learning about it because of the abomb, hitler, and yes pearl harbor.....it is the hilight of the semester for many kids - almost all are truly interested...

     

    when i take the kids to the freedom trail every fall, i make them stop by the Holocaust memorial by Quincy market and read them the quote about hitler coming after each group and no one speaking out...that really moves them...

    [/QUOTE]Glad to hear that.........  I hope there are many more history teachers out there like you !!    Thanks again.....


     

    there are Bill..we dont do it for the money or the vacations....dont get me wrong, both are fine - but teaching is almost a calling if you do it right

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

     

    [/QUOTE]iIt's not the kids that concern me......  It's the administration of the lib/left/soc/rad/moonbats that set the standards for the classroom teacher !!!!



    you have right to be....some of the nonsense that goes on in the name of education is depressingly idiotic...but NO institution is without its fault

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    IMVHO-

    1-The Japanese culture is not like ours.  They are taught that it is shameful to not fight to the death.  It is why our POWs suffered so much.  The Japanese didn't understand the concept of surrendering.  It's why every Japanese soldier on Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal, and the rest of those islands, died.  All of them.  If there were 30,000 Japanese on the island, you had to kill all 30,000.

    2-Given the facts of #1, there is no doubt that the number of people killed in an invasion of Japan would've totaled in the millions.

    3-Even with a traditional beach invasion, the bombings would've continued.  In one bombing run over Tokyo, ~ 100,000 people died, 100,000 injured, 1 million were homeless.

    4-No doubt Russia was a concern as well.  A demonstration of strength was required if we were going to keep them out of Western Europe, Korea, and China.

    5-This is not a boxing match with rules.  In order to invade Japan, we'd have lost 100,000s of American lives.  If anyone here is comfortable telling their father or brother to invade the beaches of Japan, then I'll respect that opinion.  But that's not me.  I would not have wasted one more American life in Japan.  I'd have reduced it to rubble.  If they want to continue to fight until the entire island is razed, that's their decision.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

     

    During World War II, the Japanese forced around 300,000 Koreans and Chinese women into sex slaves for the Japanese soilders.  Up to this day, the survivors still protest outside the Japanese embassy demanding compensation and a formal apology from the Japanese government. 

    Prior to the Pearl Harbor attacks, Japan was on a role.  They defeated Russia which enabled them to conquer China and Korea.  Japan then expanded their empire by conquering southeast Asia. 

    But then they got very cocky and stupid and decided to attack the United States, the biggest fish in the sea.  Japan then had to learn the hard way and surrendered. 

     

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to louisthelipp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Why hasn't the history teacher responded to GreenPartyCeltic's post which stated:

    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/the-real-reason-america-used-nuclear-weapons-against-japan-to-contain-russian-ambitions.html

    Like all Americans, I was taught that the U.S. dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in order to end WWII and save both American and Japanese lives. But most of the top American military officials at the time said otherwise. The U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey group, assigned by President Truman to study the air attacks on Japan, produced a report in July of 1946 that concluded (52-56):

    "Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

    General Dwight Eisenhower, then Supreme Commander of all Allied Forces, and the officer who created most of America's WWII military plans for Europe and Japan, said:

    "The Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing.In [July] 1945, Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. The Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent. During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of face. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude."

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    i love stephen ambrose...read this to my classs...but it also makes no mention of the emotional toll the war had on our leaders, soldiers, and civilians...in light of japanese fanaticism off the main islands, what Ike said or didnt say isnt the last word Pike....

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from gr82bme. Show gr82bme's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    IMVHO-

    1-The Japanese culture is not like ours.  They are taught that it is shameful to not fight to the death.  It is why our POWs suffered so much.  The Japanese didn't understand the concept of surrendering.  It's why every Japanese soldier on Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal, and the rest of those islands, died.  All of them.  If there were 30,000 Japanese on the island, you had to kill all 30,000.

    2-Given the facts of #1, there is no doubt that the number of people killed in an invasion of Japan would've totaled in the millions.

    3-Even with a traditional beach invasion, the bombings would've continued.  In one bombing run over Tokyo, ~ 100,000 people died, 100,000 injured, 1 million were homeless.

    4-No doubt Russia was a concern as well.  A demonstration of strength was required if we were going to keep them out of Western Europe, Korea, and China.

    5-This is not a boxing match with rules.  In order to invade Japan, we'd have lost 100,000s of American lives.  If anyone here is comfortable telling their father or brother to invade the beaches of Japan, then I'll respect that opinion.  But that's not me.  I would not have wasted one more American life in Japan.  I'd have reduced it to rubble.  If they want to continue to fight until the entire island is razed, that's their decision.

    [/QUOTE]


    Very salient points Joe - great post!

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    In response to louisthelipp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Apparently Eisenhower and his top aid felt differently. Eisenhower went on to win the White House twice in landslide victories. Where was the backlash from such statements from the patriotic faction?

    [/QUOTE]

    This patriotic faction has no problem with others expressing their opinion.  To be honest, Germany and Japan are more democratic, more peaceful, and more prposperous, after having been burned to the ground.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Dec 7 Pearl Harbor Non-Sports Question...

    i love stephen ambrose...read this to my classs...but it also makes no mention of the emotional toll the war had on our leaders, soldiers, and civilians...in light of japanese fanaticism off the main islands, what Ike said or didnt say isnt the last word Pike....

    My philosophy, perhaps not widely supported, is that sometimes a beating is important.  The reason why Western Europe is peaceful, after thousands of years of going to war, is that most of the continent was razed.  It is only when the horrors of war are delivered to every door step that people see that it is not a solution.

    They didn't surrender before or after Iwo Jima, with 28,000 dead and 20,000 wounded.

    They didn't surrender before or after Guadalcanal, with 38,000 dead.

    They didn't surrender before or after Okinawa, with maybe 110,000 killed and maybe 85,000 wounded.

    They didn't surrender when we bombed Tokyo and killed 100,000.

    They didn't surrender when we nuked Hiroshima.

    It isn't that much different than when we were kids.  Most of the bullies in the neighborhood didn't suddenly find religion.  They got peaceful after a trip to the hospital.  Unfortunately, it is the human condition.  It's not a happy thing, but we've had 5,000 years of continuous warfare, interrupted only when we've run out of materiel or young men.  We're probably better as a race for having used nuclear weapons.

     

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