DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

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    DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    Sorry, Katz, if I couldn't come up a tidier title for comments on a topic you addressed on another thread. 
    Plate discipline is desirable as a general rule.  Vlady has put in an impressive career without it. So did Yogi. He probably would have lasted a little longer had the DH been in force. 
    A lot depends on what a team wants from the DH.  Perhaps it settles for a player who strikes out and makes out a lot chasing bad pitches, if the guy can still hit with power, maybe a lot of it. OTOH, in a club's overall scheme, a better fit may be a guy who has good plate discipline, gets on base, and keeps the parade moving. To be honest I don't know how the DH slot is used across the AL. In its early days, it had the image of a guy who could no longer play well in the field -- if he ever could -- but who could still powder the ball, plate discipline or no. "It takes only one swing of the bat." And all that. 
    In a roundabout way, this leads to Ortiz/Youkilis.  
    If for one reason or other, Ortiz is not a member of the Boston Red Sox next season, Youkilis would be a candidate to replace him at DH. Quite apart from whether Youk would take to the role and the question of who would play third, the definition of the DH in the Sox lineup will have undergone some modification. Though Youk batted cleanup, he was far from the conventional cleanup hitter. And he never was as fearsome at the plate as Ortiz became once he got untracked in 2008 and 2009, and all of this year pretty much until his power took a leave in September. Moreover, how Youk recovers from his injuries remains to be seen. 
    There has been talk about "reconstruction" in Boston -- not all of the talk realistic or sensible -- and even if a more moderate term is used, what the Sox decide about the DH and how they define it will have an effect, unavoidably.
    I'm not campaigning here for Ortiz. No one can predict whether a change would be for better or for worse. 
    But the issue surely must be in minds in the executive suite as action on Ortiz is being contemplated. 




     
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    I am not a big fan of Ortiz simply because he is a one way player and as such costs two slots in the roster to carry him - his and an infielder that can play first or third as needed.  I like what I see with the Yanks where they use the DH to keep the bat in the game but rest the player from the field.  That said - I find it very hard to give up Ortiz's bat in the lineup at this point in time.  Maybe sign him to a one year contract and hope no other AL team wants him as a FA. 
     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    EX, my belief is that free swingers don't age as well, not that they can't succeed. Most free swingers get by hitting bad pitches because they are so gifted in athletic ability and hand eye coordination. As they get older jacking HRs from their knees or of the ground gets harder. As their BA drops because the make contact with fewer pitchers pitches their OBP plummets, they square up fewer and their SLG dives and they become a liability.

    While it may not be permanent CC's 2011 was a free swinger not hitting pitcher's pitchers. Alphonso Soriano is another example. Vladdy had a great year in Texas in 2010 but I thought if Manny Ramirez had played in Texas he might have chased Bonds in the middle of last decade. Superb hitters park to all fields. And Vlad is exceptional too.

    I think more and more teams are looking at DH as by committee spot, a way to get 2 or 3 guys games played up, while reducing the wear and tear of the travel and long games.

    I see Youk potentially in that role but until a guy does it, you never know how it will work out. DH is pinch hitting 4 times a game and not everybody does it well. Adam Dunn was horrid at it as it turns out.

    Ortiz IMO isn't a yes/no to the RS, few guys ever have been. It will be $$$, years, the market, their valuations and where they set their budget. The years he and Papelbon just put up and the rest the organization's current state make both of them harder decisions after 2011 than I think the RS thought they'd have a year ago today.
     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    In Response to Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity:
    [QUOTE]I am not a big fan of Ortiz simply because he is a one way player and as such costs two slots in the roster to carry him - his and an infielder that can play first or third as needed.  I like what I see with the Yanks where they use the DH to keep the bat in the game but rest the player from the field.  That said - I find it very hard to give up Ortiz's bat in the lineup at this point in time.  Maybe sign him to a one year contract and hope no other AL team wants him as a FA. 
    Posted by traven[/QUOTE]
    Very good point about a DH who can play a position. That would happen if Youk becomes the DH -- and might make the pill go down easier if he were getting some playing time at first and third.

     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    People talk about Vlad, like he's some wild swinging strikeout king.
    One of the most interesting stats around is this:
    Vlad has had five seasons where he walked more than he struck out.
    You rarely find one of these type of things happening. He's done it five times!
    The guy makes contact, and does not strike out much.
     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    I remember when Youk was our leadoff guy. I wonder if he should be moved to the #2 slot and Pedey moved to a power slot.

    I remember Orlando Cepada as our early DH. yeah, the DH then was thought to be made for guys like Cha Cha. I loved that guy. He did turn a lot of 2Bs into singles though.

    I like what I saw of Aviles. He's had some good years. He could be a nice 3Bman next year with help from Lowrie and maybe a late season Middlebrooks.

    If we let Papi walk and filled 3B with in house solutions, we could keep Papelbon, Scutaro and upgrade RF, SP and the pen nicely. I hope we don't use Papi's money on Reyes.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    In Response to Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity:
    [QUOTE]EX, my belief is that free swingers don't age as well, not that they can't succeed. Most free swingers get by hitting bad pitches because they are so gifted in athletic ability and hand eye coordination. As they get older jacking HRs from their knees or of the ground gets harder. As their BA drops because the make contact with fewer pitchers pitches their OBP plummets, they square up fewer and their SLG dives and they become a liability. While it may not be permanent CC's 2011 was a free swinger not hitting pitcher's pitchers. Alphonso Soriano is another example. Vladdy had a great year in Texas in 2010 but I thought if Manny Ramirez had played in Texas he might have chased Bonds in the middle of last decade. Superb hitters park to all fields. And Vlad is exceptional too. I think more and more teams are looking at DH as by committee spot, a way to get 2 or 3 guys games played up, while reducing the wear and tear of the travel and long games. I see Youk potentially in that role but until a guy does it, you never know how it will work out. DH is pinch hitting 4 times a game and not everybody does it well. Adam Dunn was horrid at it as it turns out. Ortiz IMO isn't a yes/no to the RS, few guys ever have been. It will be $$$, years, the market, their valuations and where they set their budget. The years he and Papelbon just put up and the rest the organization's current state make both of them harder decisions after 2011 than I think the RS thought they'd have a year ago today.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]
    If 2011 performances have made decisions about Papelcon and Ortiz thornier, imagine what Ellsbury has done to the FO, especially if in time the CC contact bears heavily on Ellsbury's future in Boston. Funny, really. Three guys doing better than what the brass anticipated and thus causing problems for the brass. How about them apples?
    Free-swingers and all that. Lineup changes in Boston. A new definition for the DH, as you describe it. We'll have to see how it all plays out. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    In Response to DH, plate disciplne, longjevity:
    [QUOTE]Sorry, Katz, if I couldn't come up a tidier title for comments on a topic you addressed on another thread.  Plate discipline is desirable as a general rule.  Vlady has put in an impressive career without it. So did Yogi. He probably would have lasted a little longer had the DH been in force.  A lot depends on what a team wants from the DH.  Perhaps it settles for a player who strikes out and makes out a lot chasing bad pitches, if the guy can still hit with power, maybe a lot of it. OTOH, in a club's overall scheme, a better fit may be a guy who has good plate discipline, gets on base, and keeps the parade moving. To be honest I don't know how the DH slot is used across the AL. In its early days, it had the image of a guy who could no longer play well in the field -- if he ever could -- but who could still powder the ball, plate discipline or no. "It takes only one swing of the bat." And all that.  In a roundabout way, this leads to Ortiz/Youkilis.   If for one reason or other, Ortiz is not a member of the Boston Red Sox next season, Youkilis would be a candidate to replace him at DH. Quite apart from whether Youk would take to the role and the question of who would play third, the definition of the DH in the Sox lineup will have undergone some modification. Though Youk batted cleanup, he was far from the conventional cleanup hitter. And he never was as fearsome at the plate as Ortiz became once he got untracked in 2008 and 2009, and all of this year pretty much until his power took a leave in September. Moreover, how Youk recovers from his injuries remains to be seen.  There has been talk about "reconstruction" in Boston -- not all of the talk realistic or sensible -- and even if a more moderate term is used, what the Sox decide about the DH and how they define it will have an effect,unavoidably. I'm not campaigning here for Ortiz. No one can predict whether a change would be for better or for worse.  But the issue surely must be in minds in the executive suite as action on Ortiz is being contemplated.   
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    This is where the rubber meets the road. Roster flex vs. stud hitter.
    And I think how the FO sees it is largely dependant on how a given player will adjust to the role.

    Papi made an easier adjustment than others might because he was injury-prone in the field. Watch him after he hits. Often, he'll go directly down the runway and study more video. He might have been off just a hair on his last AB, or maybe the pitcher threw something he didn't encounter, thus more in-depth research is required. He is well prepared. But it takes a total dedication to hitting, and players coming up at various levels who play on both sides of the fence only see
    themselves as half a player if they only hit.

    IMO, the team is not in a position to screw around with one who is such a great hitter in Papi, and who has such a huge presence.
    Youk's fragility really complicates the circumstance. I just don't see many options given the need for Youk's RH bat...and the fact they really won't be able to realistically replace Papi's numbers.

    And after all the hyperbole we'll hear this winter, I think the chances are that the team will still man Youk at 3rd, but with a back-up that can be more durable.
    And they will watch his PT carefully.

    Of course, it the FO gets into the same panic mode that has stricken many fans, then all bets are off.
     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    I would recommend we go to the emerging DH philosophy of platooning position players in the DH spot. When Papi is done, and it could happen any moment he will simply be worthless. At most give him a one year contract. If he walks, so be it.
     
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    ortiz needs to go, stop trying to soft soap it by giving him a lower offer, HE HURTS THE TEAM MORE THEN HE HELPS IT. accept it and move on.

    Youk needs to move to DH and plus one day a week at 1st and one day at 3rd, that will give Gon's and the 3rd baseman some rest though the long season. 

    That will also free up money for a really good right fielder. The RS can find a 3rd base replacement in house or in trade that will fill the position nicely.
     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    In Response to Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity:
    [QUOTE]In Response to DH, plate disciplne, longjevity : This is where the rubber meets the road. Roster flex vs. stud hitter. And I think how the FO sees it is largely dependant on how a given player will adjust to the role. Papi made an easier adjustment than others might because he was injury-prone in the field. Watch him after he hits. Often, he'll go directly down the runway and study more video. He might have been off just a hair on his last AB, or maybe the pitcher threw something he didn't encounter, thus more in-depth research is required. He is well prepared. But it takes a total dedication to hitting, and players coming up at various levels who play on both sides of the fence only see themselves as half a player if they only hit. IMO, the team is not in a position to screw around with one who is such a great hitter in Papi, and who has such a huge presence. Youk's fragility really complicates the circumstance. I just don't see many options given the need for Youk's RH bat...and the fact they really won't be able to realistically replace Papi's numbers. And after all the hyperbole we'll hear this winter, I think the chances are that the team will still man Youk at 3rd, but with a back-up that can be more durable. And they will watch his PT carefully. Of course, it the FO gets into the same panic mode that has stricken many fans, then all bets are off.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]Harness the only issue I see with Ortiz is going to be just how strong the market may be for his services, the market sometimes just can't be explained.

    You make good points about his going right to video, it is what good DHs do. And it separates the player from the game at hand and the normal flow. Some guys adjust to it much better than others. One can argue that Ortiz might be the best DH ever (even better than Edgar) and he certainly is the best DH of his generation.

    Unlike others I don't think it is a keep him or walk decision, black or white. If he was under contract, if he had a one year option I'd think it would be a non brainer to keep him. Same with Paplebon IMO. The market is a strange beast. Look at the contracts Werth and Crawford just got. Unlike recent DH signings, Ortiz is coming off of a solid year rather than a declining year.
     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    I was dissappointed when we let V. Martinez go to the Tigers.  There wasn't room for both him and Ortiz but Martinez seemed to be more dependable and he proved it this year with Det.
     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity


    "There has been talk about "reconstruction" in Boston -- not all of the talk realistic or sensible -- and even if a more moderate term is used, what the Sox decide about the DH and how they define it will have an effect, unavoidably".

    Posted by expitch

    Hey Ex,

    Not sure that reconstruction is what they need, rather to address the roster construction with an eye on fielding the best team in 2012 who's window to win extends through 2015...Job one is hiring the new manager and then figuring out who on his staff...

    I think whenever were discussing the roster in the offseason, we always have to keep in mind the contract status and age of the nucleaus...So if we break the team into two categories "pitchers and position players" and then both in sub catergories...

    Pitching:
    Starting Pitching 1-5
    Starting Pitching 6-8 (organizational depth)
    Backend of the pen
    Middle relievers
    Projectable arms in the system (Organizational depth)

    Cleary we have needs and a few projects but the nucleas of our pitching staff, dispite an ugly September is still pretty good and signed through 2014...

    To-do
    >Hire a new pitching coach...
    />Sign or aquire a proven veteran starter to bolster the rotation (Must have)
    >Make decision on Lackey is he in or out! If he's in, than job #1 for the new pitching coach is to break him down and rebuild him....
    />Down on the farm. Who's ready? Doubront? Ranaundo? Barnes? Do we have a projectable arm or arms to serve as organizational depth...if not than who serves this critical role? Miller? Wake? sorry but we've already seen that show...
    />The closer....is it Bard's job to lose? or do they sign someone else?
    />Sign or aquire another late innings reliever (see above)...Morales is a keeper
    />Jenks & Wheeler are they in or out of the plan? Aceves, Albers both keepers
    />Down on the farm...Bowden, Weiland, Britton, Fields...the list goes on
    />Do we have a projectable late innings reliever in our system...


    Position players: Who's on first? I don't know in on 3rd...
    The Lineup...
    The Defense...
    The Bench...

    />To-do hire a new hitting instructor (Magadan?) / coaching staff
    />2012 and beyond needs...DH, Catcher, SS and RF
    />2012 most critical question: Can Youkilis stay on the field (.900 ops guy) for 150 games and be an everyday thirdbaseman?
    />Where do they bat and how do they get Crawford straigtented out...
    />Do they try to resign Papi or use those resources to bolster the bench and platoon the DH spot...
    />SS Do they pick up Scutaro's option or pass and sign a FA with a better glove?
    />Is this Inglesias year>
    />Is Saltalamaccia the catcher of the future? if not him, than whom? Have we seen the last of Jason? Lavarnway?
    />RF...a premium defensive position where the ideal guy would hit RH or dispite not having the prootypical arm do they move Crawford over and take advatage of his legs to cover the expanse that is RF in Fenway?
    />Bench...Aviles is a keeper, Lowrie IMHO needs to go...can't be counted on to play a full season...
    />Down on the farm...Lavarnway, Riddick, Kalish, Anderson, Middlebrooks and Iglisias are the guys that appear to be ready to play in the big leagues...

    Here's what we have

    The top and heart of the order...
    CF Ellsbury
    LF Crawford (he needs to be at the top of the order)
    2B Pedrioa
    1B Gonzalez
    3B Youkilis

    1-5  our lineup matches up with any team both offesnively and defensively and all of the above represent the core from which our roster contrcution evloves around with Crawford, Gonzalez and Pedrioa the nucleaus around which the longer term rosters of 2014 and beyond will be built...CF and 3B are both positions that will need to be addressed in the next 3 year cycle next offseason. whether that's internal (Kalish? Middlebrooks?), or through trades ? and or FA (Kemp).

    DH OPEN...

    #6 I'll leave in the gray area for now, but what we do here does have a ton of ramifications on the above and below...but this is a critical RBI slot and a guy that will help protect the #4 and #5 guy...If we chose to go the platoon route that's about 600 at bats that can be distributed amongst a host of players and help us to keep guys fresh, but more important is help us to deepen our bench...

    Bottom of the order...
    RF Riddick/DMac/Kalish....
    C  Saltalamaccia / Varitek
    SS Lowrie/Aviles

    #7 thru #9 is where we fall short both offensively and defensively even if we re-sign Scutaro who is IMHO not a great defensive SS but is a guy that grinds and plays the game hard..

    That said if we want to lengthen the lineup we have to get better production from RF period and I would contend that we also could use an upgrade at the catchers spot too...lots of power not a ton of contact...Here's where the rubber hits the road...All three of these positions are premium defensive position and represent the best areas for us to improve over last year both with the glove and the bats...lots of moving parts and although we do have "players" that are projectable platoon guys.

    I feel that we need a dynamic middle infield presense (Iglesias?) and a big righthanded bat (Cuddayer?)...then the question remains what to do with Papi...my answer is let him walk and make a play for Willingham or Rivera...

    Any how that's my long winded take...
     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    In Response to Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity:
    [QUOTE]I was dissappointed when we let V. Martinez go to the Tigers.  There wasn't room for both him and Ortiz but Martinez seemed to be more dependable and he proved it this year with Det.
    Posted by MichFan[/QUOTE]

    VMart would have been a 4 year commitment for a DH who can play a few games at C and 1B.

    Papi was a 1 year commitment at about the same yearly cost of VMart.

    2011 numbers:

    Papi (605 PA)  .309/.398/.554/.953  29 HRs  96 RBI (41 2B+3Bs)
    VMart  (595)   .330/.380/.470/.850  12 HRs  103 RBIs (40 2B+3Bs)

    Papi beat VMart by over 100 OPS points. 

    The issue with VMart was not his production in 2011, but the 3 years afterwards as he enters his mid-30's.
     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    In Response to Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity:
    [QUOTE]"There has been talk about "reconstruction" in Boston -- not all of the talk realistic or sensible -- and even if a more moderate term is used, what the Sox decide about the DH and how they define it will have an effect, unavoidably". Posted by expitch Hey Ex, Not sure that reconstruction is what they need, rather to address the roster construction with an eye on fielding the best team in 2012 who's window to win extends through 2015...Job one is hiring the new manager and then figuring out who on his staff... I think whenever were discussing the roster in the offseason, we always have to keep in mind the contract status and age of the nucleaus...So if we break the team into two categories "pitchers and position players" and then both in sub catergories... Pitching: Starting Pitching 1-5 Starting Pitching 6-8 (organizational depth) Backend of the pen Middle relievers Projectable arms in the system (Organizational depth) Cleary we have needs and a few projects but the nucleas of our pitching staff, dispite an ugly September is still pretty good and signed through 2014... To-do />Hire a new pitching coach... />Sign or aquire a proven veteran starter to bolster the rotation (Must have) >Make decision on Lackey is he in or out! If he's in, than job #1 for the new pitching coach is to break him down and rebuild him.... />Down on the farm. Who's ready? Doubront? Ranaundo? Barnes? Do we have a projectable arm or arms to serve as organizational depth...if not than who serves this critical role? Miller? Wake? sorry but we've already seen that show... />The closer....is it Bard's job to lose? or do they sign someone else? />Sign or aquire another late innings reliever (see above)...Morales is a keeper />Jenks & Wheeler are they in or out of the plan? Aceves, Albers both keepers />Down on the farm...Bowden, Weiland, Britton, Fields...the list goes on />Do we have a projectable late innings reliever in our system... Position players: Who's on first? I don't know in on 3rd... The Lineup... The Defense... The Bench... />To-do hire a new hitting instructor (Magadan?) / coaching staff />2012 and beyond needs...DH, Catcher, SS and RF />2012 most critical question: Can Youkilis stay on the field (.900 ops guy) for 150 games and be an everyday thirdbaseman? />Where do they bat and how do they get Crawford straigtented out... />Do they try to resign Papi or use those resources to bolster the bench and platoon the DH spot... />SS Do they pick up Scutaro's option or pass and sign a FA with a better glove? />Is this Inglesias year> />Is Saltalamaccia the catcher of the future? if not him, than whom? Have we seen the last of Jason? Lavarnway? />RF...a premium defensive position where the ideal guy would hit RH or dispite not having the prootypical arm do they move Crawford over and take advatage of his legs to cover the expanse that is RF in Fenway? />Bench...Aviles is a keeper, Lowrie IMHO needs to go...can't be counted on to play a full season... />Down on the farm...Lavarnway, Riddick, Kalish, Anderson, Middlebrooks and Iglisias are the guys that appear to be ready to play in the big leagues... Here's what we have The top and heart of the order... CF Ellsbury LF Crawford (he needs to be at the top of the order) 2B Pedrioa 1B Gonzalez 3B Youkilis 1-5  our lineup matches up with any team both offesnively and defensively and all of the above represent the core from which our roster contrcution evloves around with Crawford, Gonzalez and Pedrioa the nucleaus around which the longer term rosters of 2014 and beyond will be built...CF and 3B are both positions that will need to be addressed in the next 3 year cycle next offseason. whether that's internal (Kalish? Middlebrooks?), or through trades ? and or FA (Kemp). DH OPEN... #6 I'll leave in the gray area for now, but what we do here does have a ton of ramifications on the above and below...but this is a critical RBI slot and a guy that will help protect the #4 and #5 guy...If we chose to go the platoon route that's about 600 at bats that can be distributed amongst a host of players and help us to keep guys fresh, but more important is help us to deepen our bench... Bottom of the order... RF Riddick/DMac/Kalish.... C  Saltalamaccia / Varitek SS Lowrie/Aviles #7 thru #9 is where we fall short both offensively and defensively even if we re-sign Scutaro who is IMHO not a great defensive SS but is a guy that grinds and plays the game hard.. That said if we want to lengthen the lineup we have to get better production from RF period and I would contend that we also could use an upgrade at the catchers spot too...lots of power not a ton of contact...Here's where the rubber hits the road...All three of these positions are premium defensive position and represent the best areas for us to improve over last year both with the glove and the bats...lots of moving parts and although we do have "players" that are projectable platoon guys. I feel that we need a dynamic middle infield presense (Iglesias?) and a big righthanded bat (Cuddayer?)...then the question remains what to do with Papi...my answer is let him walk and make a play for Willingham or Rivera... Any how that's my long winded take...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]
    Ho. I read and considered all of it. 
    As I said in my post, "reconstruction," which normally requires deconstruction first, is neither desirable nor possible for the Red Sox.  But between bringing in people, letting people go, moving people around in roles and positions, and setting a batting order, important changes are possible, maybe even probable. Much will depend on how things work out with Ortiz and Papelbon. Whether they stay or go will have an immediate impact. 

     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    In Response to Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity : Ho. I read and considered all of it.  As I said in my post, "reconstruction," which normally requires deconstruction first, is neither desirable nor possible for the Red Sox.  But between bringing in people, letting people go, moving people around in roles and positions, and setting a batting order, important changes are possible, maybe even probable. Much will depend on how things work out with Ortiz and Papelbon. Whether they stay or go will have an immediate impact. 
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    I agree with Ortiz but not so much with Papelbon...we're gonna have a closer one way or the other...the DH is another matter and depending on how we chose to use the 600 PA could fall under reconstruction...I am a proponant of letting him walk and signing guys that can play the field and use the DH spot as a platoon positon...

    ditto Papelbon I'd be more than ok with Bard in the closer role to open the year and use the funds allocated to him to bolster the starting staff...

     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

     I've been a huge Youk supporter over the years but I think that if he wants to finish his career in Cincinnati we should oblige him. His best spot in the field is at 1st base and that appears to be sewn up for awhile. If we keep Scutaro he can be moved to 3rd, where his lack of range isn't an issue. The last 2 years Youk has looked over the hill and I don't see how that magically improves. Even his vaunted plate discipline seems to have disappeared.
     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    Bean, nice summary and key questions rasied.

    I strongly disagree on Crawford up 2nd, particularly vs LHPs. He should actually be on the bench vs lefties.
     
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    In Response to Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity:
    [QUOTE] I've been a huge Youk supporter over the years but I think that if he wants to finish his career in Cincinnati we should oblige him. His best spot in the field is at 1st base and that appears to be sewn up for awhile. If we keep Scutaro he can be moved to 3rd, where his lack of range isn't an issue. The last 2 years Youk has looked over the hill and I don't see how that magically improves. Even his vaunted plate discipline seems to have disappeared.
    Posted by trouts[/QUOTE]

    I'd rather have an Aviles - Lowrie platoon at 3B than Scutaro there.

     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    In Response to Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity:
    [QUOTE]Bean, nice summary and key questions rasied. I strongly disagree on Crawford up 2nd, particularly vs LHPs. He should actually be on the bench vs lefties.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]This is the whole issue with Crawford. Assume Crawford is his career averages, even his 2010 year in Tampa and still:

    Ellsbury is a better leadoff hitter
    Pedroia is a better 2.
    A-Gon a better 3
    Youk a better 4
    Ortiz a better 5

    And that's versus RH pitching. Even if hitting him at 2 would make him better which I don't buy, he would not be as good at the role as the guy going down in the order.

    Crawford would not have hit 2nd in Tampa if they had the hitters Boston does.
     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    In Response to Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity : This is the whole issue with Crawford. Assume Crawford is his career averages, even his 2010 year in Tampa and still: Ellsbury is a better leadoff hitter Pedroia is a better 2. A-Gon a better 3 Youk a better 4 Ortiz a better 5 And that's versus RH pitching. Even if hitting him at 2 would make him better which I don't buy, he would not be as good at the role as the guy going down in the order. Crawford would not have hit 2nd in Tampa if they had the hitters Boston does.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]
    Bingo.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    If Youk continues his decline, we may have to move Pedey to the 3 or 4 slot. If that happenes, I'd rather have Scutty 2nd than CC (at least vs LHPs).
     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    In Response to Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity : I agree with Ortiz but not so much with Papelbon...we're gonna have a closer one way or the other...the DH is another matter and depending on how we chose to use the 600 PA could fall under reconstruction...I am a proponant of letting him walk and signing guys that can play the field and use the DH spot as a platoon positon... ditto Papelbon I'd be more than ok with Bard in the closer role to open the year and use the funds allocated to him to bolster the starting staff...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    Hey Bean:

    I said similar last year - at year's end. I felt a rotational DH was better use of roster space. But after what Papi showed this year, I've put off the "rotational DH" thinking for a while.

    Papi is flat out a great hitter, and as Katzsaid, maybe the greatest DH ever.
    I don't see them replacing this valued production, especially when Youk might become more fragile than he has been. Without an adequate replacement, they simply pitch around AGONE when Youk is out or not at 100%.

    It's not a great situation to be in, but I'll tell ya this: I'd rather see Papi produce for Boston than in another uniform...with the Sox scrambling day-to-day trying and replace him.
     
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    Re: DH, plate disciplne, longjevity

    I still think if we want to get better, we will need to spend some money to upgrade SP, RF, and the pen. I do not think we can do that and keep Papi and Paps. 

    The kids we have to fill in the RF, SP and pen slots are not ready or not too good. The kids we have to replace Papi or Paps are better and closer to being ready. To me, that is the realization our Gm will come too. The draft pick(s) we get when one walks makes the choice a little easier to make.


     

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