did anyone else notice...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dustcover. Show dustcover's posts

    did anyone else notice...

    Just for the moment I’d like to present a Belichickian approach to the Sox success this weekend. Yes, they swept the Yankees; yes they are now at .500; yes the plane trip home was upbeat; BUT, there is plenty of room for improvement.

    And this brings me to my moment of angst over the three-game set. Like so many others, I admire and respect Big Papi and all that he has done for the Sox. And notwithstanding his display of ‘hugging’ Yankee fans, he did go 3 for 5 with a homer, double, and single. However, he did make a key mistake that cost the Sox a run early in the game. A mistake on a play that most Little Leaguers are taught to avoid.

    Top of the 2nd inning, Youk reaches on a passed ball, Papi singles, Drew walks to load the bases. Lowrie flies out to center with Youk scoring and Papi going to 3rd. Now with one out, runners at 1st and 3rd, Crawford hits a slow roller toward Arod at 3b and Papi breaks for home and is easily out, thus leaving runners at 1st and 2nd with two outs.

    I cannot grasp why any major leaguer, particularly one with as many years experience as Big Papi, would make such a blunder. The runner at third should trail the third baseman and force him to throw to 1st base. The runner than has the option of breaking for home or retreating to 3b.

    If done properly it results in either, a) the batter is thrown out at 1b and a run scores leaving a runner at 2b with two outs, or b) the batter is thrown out at 1b leaving runners at 2nd and 3rd in scoring position with two outs.

    Now some may say that I’m being ‘picky’, but folks, this is ‘execution 101’, In this case, the base running blunder which potentially cost the Sox an additional early run, did not alter the outcome of the game, BUT it easily could have. So again, referencing the Belichickian philosophy, it’s ‘situational baseball’ that should have been covered, at the very least, in Spring Training.

    So until the Sox, not just Big Papi, earnestly start paying attention to detail and playing heads-up baseball, I will continue to rail when these sophomoric blunders occur.

    Thank you for reading and allowing me to vent. I now feel much better.

    GO SOX

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    Was he told to go by the 3rd base coach?

    If so this is not Ortiz's mistake , it's Bogar's.

    With two outs, Bogar sent a runner home from 2nd on a hard hit single to left a few games ago The catcher had the ball in his glove and without a whole lot of exagerration, could have had lunch while he waited for the runner to arrive at home plate for an easy out.

    I think you are barking up the wrong tree blaming Ortiz. The coach is supposed to tell runners to stay or go. You know like the old Clash song, 'Should I Stay Or Should I Go?'...Let's ask our resident Clash expert, Lloyd Dobler...is this not right LLoyd?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dustcover. Show dustcover's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

     If done properly it results in either, a) the batter is thrown out at 1b and a run scores leaving a runner at 2b with two outs, or b) the batter is thrown out at 1b leaving runners at 2 nd and 3 rd in scoring position with two outs.

    Upon further reflection, c) the batter is thrown out a 1b, and the runner at 3b breaks for the plate and is thrown out resulting in an inning-ending double play.

    But at least it would have been heads-up baseball.  In this instance, I just cannot bring myself to back off my position!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    I thought for sure the negative comments would be focused on Pap flirting with disaster in the series and how the Red Sox were lucky to come away with 1 win, not to mention a sweep.

    I wonder what Big Papi would look like running in quicksand.  Would it look that different than Papi running to second on a double?
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    In Response to did anyone else notice...:
    [QUOTE]Just for the moment I’d like to present a Belichickian approach to the Sox success this weekend. Yes, they swept the Yankees; yes they are now at .500; yes the plane trip home was upbeat; BUT, there is plenty of room for improvement. And this brings me to my moment of angst over the three-game set. Like so many others, I admire and respect Big Papi and all that he has done for the Sox. And notwithstanding his display of ‘hugging’ Yankee fans, he did go 3 for 5 with a homer, double, and single. However, he did make a key mistake that cost the Sox a run early in the game. A mistake on a play that most Little Leaguers are taught to avoid. Top of the 2 nd inning, Youk reaches on a passed ball, Papi singles, Drew walks to load the bases. Lowrie flies out to center with Youk scoring and Papi going to 3 rd . Now with one out, runners at 1 st and 3 rd , Crawford hits a slow roller toward Arod at 3b and Papi breaks for home and is easily out, thus leaving runners at 1 st and 2 nd with two outs. I cannot grasp why any major leaguer, particularly one with as many years experience as Big Papi, would make such a blunder. The runner at third should trail the third baseman and force him to throw to 1 st base. The runner than has the option of breaking for home or retreating to 3b. If done properly it results in either, a) the batter is thrown out at 1b and a run scores leaving a runner at 2b with two outs, or b) the batter is thrown out at 1b leaving runners at 2 nd and 3 rd in scoring position with two outs. Now some may say that I’m being ‘picky’, but folks, this is ‘execution 101’, In this case, the base running blunder which potentially cost the Sox an additional early run, did not alter the outcome of the game, BUT it easily could have. So again, referencing the Belichickian philosophy, it’s ‘situational baseball’ that should have been covered, at the very least, in Spring Training. So until the Sox, not just Big Papi, earnestly start paying attention to detail and playing heads-up baseball, I will continue to rail when these sophomoric blunders occur. Thank you for reading and allowing me to vent. I now feel much better. GO SOX
    Posted by dustcover[/QUOTE]
    Let me respond to your post the way the Francona apologists respond to his frequent blunders. Their answer would be "They won didn't they?"  Paying no attention to the potential negative affect the blunder might have caused. The response to you might be more accurate if I say.."They won in spite of the blunder", but it was still a blunder that could have caused a loss.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    Papi brings a lot to the team, but hustle and smart base-running not so much.  At least a few times a year he hits a pop-up down the line that falls in and he is on first instead of second, or he poses on a just miss homer.  This brings me to my "only" criticism of Tito, poor handling of veterans. He has not been able to change bad habits of his veterans (Lowell was just a bad) and he hurts the team by showing too much loyalty (examples too many to list). 

    I will acknowledge that managing veterans is a challenge, maybe only the top managers pull it off.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    yeah, wasn't a smart play.  hardly worth a thread though.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dustcover. Show dustcover's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    In Response to Re: did anyone else notice...:
    [QUOTE]Was he told to go by the 3rd base coach? If so this is not Ortiz's mistake , it's Bogar's. With two outs, Bogar sent a runner home from 2nd on a hard hit single to left a few games ago The catcher had the ball in his glove and without a whole lot of exagerration, could have had lunch while he waited for the runner to arrive at home plate for an easy out. I think you are barking up the wrong tree blaming Ortiz. The coach is supposed to tell runners to stay or go. You know like the old Clash song, 'Should I Stay Or Should I Go?'...Let's ask our resident Clash expert, Lloyd Dobler...is this not right LLoyd?
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]

    Perhaps, he was told to 'Go on contact' but if not, once the ball is in play, it's bang/bang and there is insufficient time for the coach to communicate with the runner.

    So, I'll concede, if Bogar gave Ortiz the 'Go on contact' sign, it's on Bogar, but otherwise it's on Big Papi. 

    But I still maintain, in that situation, the runner as well as the 3B coach should instinctively know that you don't start running on a slow roller to the third baseman who is charging in.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from majorleague. Show majorleague's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    It's a good point but Ortiz isn't to blame. It's the managers and coaches who have the worst baserunning team I've seen in many years, even with Manny.

    This is a talented and deep team, but it is a very, very, very poor baseball fundamentals team. That's part of deal with the MLBPA, but the baserunning blunders this year are beyond that.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dustcover. Show dustcover's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    In Response to Re: did anyone else notice...:
    [QUOTE]yeah, wasn't a smart play.  hardly worth a thread though.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    It's worth it to me in that it allows me to vent and get it off my mind. :)
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from majorleague. Show majorleague's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    This is a great baseball thread. Look, if the smam threads about the Sheriff are allowed to float along in a drivel drone fashion, this thread should go in the HOF of threads.

    Fans need to demand more from the players executing the fundamentals. Yes, complaining about it can make a difference.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmojo1120. Show mrmojo1120's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    I think it was Bogar that sent him,but I could be wrong.
    Actually,I was wondering about a move that Girardi made in the second game although it worked out for him.In the second game,top of the 5th,Ellsbury had just doubled with the bases loaded to bring in 2 runs and leave runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out.Girardi chose to walk Pedroia (loading the bases) and pitch to Adrian Gonzalez.Gonzo promptly hit into a double play.
       It seemed like Giradi was playing with fire by walking Pedey and facing Gonzo even though Gonzalez really hadn't hit Sabathia all that well at that point.I don't think if I was managing I would have done it that way.I would have pitched to Pedroia.But maybe that's why I'm not a Big League manager.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dustcover. Show dustcover's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    In Response to Re: did anyone else notice...:
    [QUOTE]It's a good point but Ortiz isn't to blame. It's the managers and coaches who have the worst baserunning team I've seen in many years, even with Manny. This is a talented and deep team, but it is a very, very, very poor baseball fundamentals team.

    Thanks for your response, and for emphasizing the point that I was trying to make.  I wasn't picking on Big Papi, I was just using his base running blunder as an example of the underlying malady that I perceive on the team as a whole.  Correctable, certainly, but a renewed focus on fundamentals, as you point out, is necessary if the team hopes to go to the World Series.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    In Response to Re: did anyone else notice...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: did anyone else notice... : It's worth it to me in that it allows me to vent and get it off my mind. :)
    Posted by dustcover[/QUOTE]

    yea, sorry bout that.  venting is important.  i guess my annoyance with blunder was erased by the W.  It was a foolish play though.  Given the track record, the suspicion of guilt for the infraction, in my eyes, lies with Bogar.  I appreciate that he is 'aggressive', but I want 'smart' before i want 'aggressive' in my third base coach.
     
  15. This post has been removed.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    That play is all about the player judging the ball as it is hit, it is not a play that 3B coach can really call because he is going to have to be positioned too far down the line for the runner to see him. While the coaching box is loosely enforced as where the 3B coach has to be on the field, being half way down the line as the pitch is thrown is against the rules.

    Players have limitations and IMO no amount of coaching is going to make David Ortiz at this point in his career a better base runner. I would say that if David makes the decision he did it is incumbent on him to go into home with a lot more physicality than he did.
     
  17. This post has been removed.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    First the coach would not say at the time of the it to go or not to.
    That was discussed in ST and as well as during the year.
    It was not Bogar's fault. Pap did what he thought was right and he was wrong.
    As stated he did NOT trail the ARod as he was supposed to.
    Bogar does not say go or trail him. Paps made a mistake BFD.

    The  only thing our complaining about the lack of fundamental does is make a good place to discuss baseball. If you think anything we say here actually makes it into the RS locker room except to be laughed at you really have visions of grandeur floating in your head.

    This is a talented and deep team, but it is a very, very, very poor baseball fundamentals team That is part of the deal with the MLBPA but the baserunning blunders this year are beyond that.
    Please how can you be a talented team and deep but be a very very poor fundamentals team? That seems to be a contradiction in terms?                 
    What TF does the MLBPA have to do with base running blunders?????

    major league do you ever proof what you write? Half of it makes no sense the other half just are Lowrie insults with no basis in fact.
     
  19. This post has been removed.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    Yes, I did notice it at the time and commented in the game thread--bad play by Ortiz.  I find it hard to believe the 3B coach told him to go on anything on the ground, but maybe he did. 

    This does not mean the team is weak on fundamentals.  Yesterday Lester picked off a Yankee.  Does that mean they don't know how to run the bases because that runner should have made sure Lester was going home with his pitch?  Nope.  It just means he took a chance and lost.  So did Ortiz. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    Is Papi the slowest guy in the Majors?  Maybe they should institute a whole new chapter of base running basics just for Papi.  He is so slow that what applies to the average runner would result in an out for Slow Papi.  Someone should tell Papi that it's OK to lift his knees when runs.  Lean forward, and drive those legs.  He looks like a toddler trying to run.

    But it's OK - he isn't paid to run the bases.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from chuchos. Show chuchos's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    I had a good laugh when the announcer said "Oriz is a triple shy of the cycle".
    While not impossible, surely unlikely that he gets all the way around. 
     
    Yes of course he has done it in the past, but only a handful.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    In Response to Re: did anyone else notice...:
    [QUOTE]Is Papi the slowest guy in the Majors?  Maybe they should institute a whole new chapter of base running basics just for Papi.  He is so slow that what applies to the average runner would result in an out for Slow Papi.  Someone should tell Papi that it's OK to lift his knees when runs.  Lean forward, and drive those legs.  He looks like a toddler trying to run. But it's OK - he isn't paid to run the bases.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]

    I don't know man.  When the big man gets them legs a turnin, he can chug a little.  In fact, as a card-filler for the Ellsbury/Crawford race, they should do Papi/Gonzo.  I'm not sure Gonzo's top gear could touch Papi, though he clearly faster out of the blocks.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from majorleague. Show majorleague's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    Please how can you be a talented team and deep but be a very very poor fundamentals team? That seems to be a contradiction in terms?     

    Lanny Wadkins was talented, but he was poor in the fundamentals. It cost him, as he admitted he had no patience for the fundamentals. Talent and fundamentals are two completely different issues.

                
    What TF does the MLBPA have to do with base running blunders?????

    Very difficult to coach members of the MLBPA. Only the few professionals are the exception. You can tell them to work on the fundamentals of the sacrifice, baserunning, posture, positioning, but there is very little you can do to make them do more than not pay attention and go through the motions. If you dispute that, you are completely out to lunch!

    major league do you ever proof what you write? Half of it makes no sense the other half just are Lowrie insults with no basis in fact.

    Obviously, it's you who have no proof of the drivel you write. All of what you write is either useless drivel or misinformation.

    As for poor Lowrie getting "insults", the basis in fact is that he's hot days off, tired days off and has never, ever played a full season in MLB. It is you who have no "basis in fact". Lowrie is also a lousy defensive SS, with little range, slow release and slow reflexes. Sorry if that hurts your feelings, but any personal insult is not intended to the player, it would be intended for you.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: did anyone else notice...

    By the time they reach the majors, they should know how to play.  Particularly if they are free agents.

    There are exceptions - see Salty.  And of course when a team isn't very good and has promoted players to the majors before they are ready (see Salty).

    Lowrie is probably a better 2nd baseman that SS, but there is no way he's going to get a sniff of 2nd base. 
     

Share